October 2010 Test Prep

CurlyKat
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby CurlyKat » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:46 pm

By the way.. this might be totally out there, but is it possible that October tests are harder to score high on than on other months' administrations? I'm just thinking about it, because from searching the net and forums, such as this one, October tests have many re-takes. It would make sense that they would score higher and pull up the %. But, obviously, it can also be that there are as many retakers in October as in any other month, or that they don't actually score higher, or the LSAT can somehow control for the effect...
any thoughts?

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jwaters
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby jwaters » Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:57 pm

JohnBoy wrote:Hello everyone.

I am bent on retaking this October, with you guys. For those that are first time test takers, perhaps I can offer some advice and/or tips...feel free to ask.

After a 170 in June, I'm really going to narrow my studies and could enlist your help. I'm trying to build my own 5-section practice tests. I want to use the most difficult sections from all previously administered LSAT tests and slap a -10 point curve on them. If anyone knows of extremely difficult sections, or has browsed the internet and found a site detailing difficult sections, please post it.

On a side note, never take a four section test...it is only to your detriment if you do.

I have a few questions....
What was your general study plan like for the June test?

Did you do a lot of timed individual sections or just preptests?

I usually miss 2-4 of the hardest LR questions, but not any specific question type. Do you have any general advice for getting these LR questions down?

What is your goal for the Oct. test?

mfors
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby mfors » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:21 pm

anyone trying to combine a testmasters class while using the bibles? I am worried this will mess up my test taking methods

lawschoolisfun2012
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby lawschoolisfun2012 » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:45 pm

Taking Testmasters and the bibles will not confuse you. The strategies used by both companies are similar. Also, it boils down to fundamentals, the courses are really preaching the same thing just with different vocabulary. I'll probably get called out on this, that is my two cents. On the other hand, KAPLAN is very different compared to TM and Powerscore.

Anyone else think the June 2007 LSAT is on the easy side? The curve looks rough!

surfermikedude
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby surfermikedude » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:14 am

lawschoolisfun2012 wrote:Taking Testmasters and the bibles will not confuse you. The strategies used by both companies are similar. Also, it boils down to fundamentals, the courses are really preaching the same thing just with different vocabulary. I'll probably get called out on this, that is my two cents. On the other hand, KAPLAN is very different compared to TM and Powerscore.

Anyone else think the June 2007 LSAT is on the easy side? The curve looks rough!




Different is putting it lightly. To be frank, Kaplan overemphasizes acronyms. I found myself wondering which acronym went with which game/lr type rather than actually deciphering what the correct answer choice was. They complicate things too much and I would not recommend their methods, not to mention the fact that they do not exclusively use questions from the LSAT.

Jasjessen
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Jasjessen » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:25 am

Recently started studying and am using pithypike's guide for the most part. So far I've just been focusing on the Logic games. They've been going well so far. I'd say I'm averaging 9-10 minutes with a max of 12 and a min of 5 and getting either -0 or -1. Need to focus on accuracy a little more I guess. My real question lies with RC. Is it really worth it to copy the RC sections and redo them like the LG games? It seems like a lot of work to try sort out and organize all of the RC questions by their type. I was just going to go through each section of each test once and review it. Any thoughts on a better method?

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iamcutdacheck
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby iamcutdacheck » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:40 am

Thoughts on using the Powerscore Bibles and Princeton Review courses concurrently?

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lennonist
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby lennonist » Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:32 am

To my June Test brethren:

Took that damn PT 60 today on my own (originally cancelled) and got a 165. Glad I cancelled it.

Never got above a 168 on PTs. Need at least a 170.

2 months of excitement lie ahead... :)

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Dany
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Dany » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:14 am

CurlyKat wrote:By the way.. this might be totally out there, but is it possible that October tests are harder to score high on than on other months' administrations? I'm just thinking about it, because from searching the net and forums, such as this one, October tests have many re-takes. It would make sense that they would score higher and pull up the %. But, obviously, it can also be that there are as many retakers in October as in any other month, or that they don't actually score higher, or the LSAT can somehow control for the effect...
any thoughts?

No. The LSAT is equated, not curved. The raw scores are converted to the 120-180 scale based on the statistical difficulty of the test (which comes from analyzing past experimental sections.) The people you take the test with have no effect on your score, so no need to worry about the test-taking population in October.

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balzern
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby balzern » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:26 am

eskimo wrote:
CurlyKat wrote:By the way.. this might be totally out there, but is it possible that October tests are harder to score high on than on other months' administrations? I'm just thinking about it, because from searching the net and forums, such as this one, October tests have many re-takes. It would make sense that they would score higher and pull up the %. But, obviously, it can also be that there are as many retakers in October as in any other month, or that they don't actually score higher, or the LSAT can somehow control for the effect...
any thoughts?

No. The LSAT is equated, not curved. The raw scores are converted to the 120-180 scale based on the statistical difficulty of the test (which comes from analyzing past experimental sections.) The people you take the test with have no effect on your score, so no need to worry about the test-taking population in October.


Well said Eskimo - glad to see some June 10ers reppin this thread. Are you retaking like muah? :P

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Dany
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Dany » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:44 am

balzern wrote:Well said Eskimo - glad to see some June 10ers reppin this thread. Are you retaking like muah? :P

Nope, I got lucky in June and am sticking with my score; I just posted some advice a few pages back so now this thread pops up in 'View Your Posts' andI thought I'd help CurlyKat out! Good luck in October - I'm sure you'll do great!

CurlyKat
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby CurlyKat » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:19 am

eskimo wrote:
balzern wrote:Well said Eskimo - glad to see some June 10ers reppin this thread. Are you retaking like muah? :P

Nope, I got lucky in June and am sticking with my score; I just posted some advice a few pages back so now this thread pops up in 'View Your Posts' andI thought I'd help CurlyKat out! Good luck in October - I'm sure you'll do great!



Thank you! I'm glad to read your reply! Don't know why I thought it was curved.

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Gemini
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Gemini » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:23 am

I'm following Pithypike's method for logic games. I've never read the LGB before this.

I'm reading it now, and doing Pithypike method.

He states to do 5-6 games a day (for me it's every other day). My question is what does this help?
I've taken some repeats and I've gotten a question or 2 wrong that I got right the first time (albiet its usually a dumb mistake). My time on each game so far has been, on average, pretty good. 5-6 minutes with some outliers.

My experiences are only from Basic linear games (balanced/overloaded/underfunded) though. But what does the repitition help?

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iamcutdacheck
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby iamcutdacheck » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:27 am

Gemini Hopeful wrote:I'm following Pithypike's method for logic games. I've never read the LGB before this.

I'm reading it now, and doing Pithypike method.

He states to do 5-6 games a day (for me it's every other day). My question is what does this help?
I've taken some repeats and I've gotten a question or 2 wrong that I got right the first time (albiet its usually a dumb mistake). My time on each game so far has been, on average, pretty good. 5-6 minutes with some outliers.

My experiences are only from Basic linear games (balanced/overloaded/underfunded) though. But what does the repitition help?


Though I took the June 2010 LSAT, my speed and accuracy has improved greatly ever since getting the Logic Games Bible and using Pithypike's method. I do 5-6 games a day and correct any mistake on the same day but 45 min-1 hr after completing the original 5-6 problems.

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psychlaw
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby psychlaw » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:31 am

Hey!!! Just started the Powerscore class. Ready to start thinking LSAT 24/7 for the next two months :)

Jarrett
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Jarrett » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:36 am

The Oct LSAT is perfect fa I get to apply to my TLS around the same time . I just purchased a powerscore LG bible with the hopes of improving my score. I am very excited about taking it since his will be the first time . Georgetown here I come !

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JohnBoy
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby JohnBoy » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:23 pm

CurlyKat wrote:By the way.. this might be totally out there, but is it possible that October tests are harder to score high on than on other months' administrations? I'm just thinking about it, because from searching the net and forums, such as this one, October tests have many re-takes. It would make sense that they would score higher and pull up the %. But, obviously, it can also be that there are as many retakers in October as in any other month, or that they don't actually score higher, or the LSAT can somehow control for the effect...
any thoughts?


In my opinion, the LSAT is completely random. I don't think they strive to make a certain month more difficult than others. Many said that June has an average curve of -9, but for my test it was -12. In December they said an average of -10 and it was -14. That being said, there is the possibility that more people take the test in October than any other month. If that is the case, then more people would retake..but proportionally speaking it probably is even. If the best test takers contrive a plan to all take the test in October than it could skew the curve, but many have said the curve is predetermined for the most part. hth

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iamcutdacheck
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby iamcutdacheck » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:44 pm

Jarrett wrote:The Oct LSAT is perfect fa I get to apply to my TLS around the same time . I just purchased a powerscore LG bible with the hopes of improving my score. I am very excited about taking it since his will be the first time . Georgetown here I come !


:?

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JohnBoy
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby JohnBoy » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:51 pm

jwaters wrote:I have a few questions....
What was your general study plan like for the June test?

Did you do a lot of timed individual sections or just preptests?

I usually miss 2-4 of the hardest LR questions, but not any specific question type. Do you have any general advice for getting these LR questions down?

What is your goal for the Oct. test?


In June I had the Kaplan mastery book. I did just about every LR question in the book as that was my worst section (averaged between -2 and -4 at that point). I took a practice test a week leading up to about a month before the test, which at that point I moved it up to two tests a week. I also read the PowerScore books cover to cover. For me, it was a waste of time. For others, it's extremely beneficial. Gauge where you are score wise and act accordingly.

I did timed sections and practice tests. I guess any practice is better than no practice. But the test is 5 sections long with one break...this time around I'm only going to do full PTs. If you are going to do individual timed sections, I would do three in a row without pause. LR LR LR, RC RC RC, LG LG LG...while it will be a pain, getting used to it isn't a bad idea.

I can't tell you how important adding the 5th section to your PTs is. My PT average was a 174, finishing most games 5-10 minutes early. In June my first section was LG, finished 10 minutes early and double checked my answers. Then came section 3, the real LG and my heart sank..my emotions mixed in with a difficult LG made me miss 3 questions (the difference between my 170 and a 173).

As for LR, I now average -3 to -4 total (depending on the difficulty of the test) without a particular type of stem as well. My advice at this level is to slow down. I was once told, "slow is smooth and smooth is fast." A single word can make the world of a difference on a right and wrong answer. When you're going over the stim try to comprehend as much as possible. Actively read and question the logical chain of the author. For instance, you know the formula for a logical argument..along the lines of premise+assumption=conclusion. When you read, you can break down the elements of the argument and predict what is missing and the subsequent type of question you will get. Mix this in with an eye towards locating quantity and quality indicators to quickly ignore shell game answers (answers that use the wording in the stim, or complete the gap in the argument but do so in language that is too strong or unwarranted by the information above).

I try to take extremely short pauses between sentences as I read through an LR question. Sometimes breaking it up, even if its only for a second, can really help in laying the argument out mentally. Think structure as you read and look for indicator words. For me, the most difficult questions tend to be the more abstract str/wkn/method of argument questions. I'll post if I make any progress in these areas.

My goal for October is 174+

On a side note for test day. I don't advise hyping yourself up. I had some friends who told me they had so much adrenaline they couldn't think clearly. Remember, this is a logical test. I think it is best to calm yourself down and get your wits focused. But, to each his own.

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Albatross
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Albatross » Tue Jul 20, 2010 12:51 pm

iamcutdacheck wrote:
Jarrett wrote:The Oct LSAT is perfect fa I get to apply to my TLS around the same time . I just purchased a powerscore LG bible with the hopes of improving my score. I am very excited about taking it since his will be the first time . Georgetown here I come !


:?


Good luck.

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Dany
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Dany » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:35 pm

CurlyKat wrote:Thank you! I'm glad to read your reply! Don't know why I thought it was curved.

Because everyone talks about "the curve" because it's much easier to say "-11 curve" than "You can miss 11 and still have the test equated to a 170." It's just easier to say, but creates common misconceptions. It's definitely not just you. :)

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JohnBoy
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby JohnBoy » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:45 pm

eskimo wrote:
CurlyKat wrote:Thank you! I'm glad to read your reply! Don't know why I thought it was curved.

Because everyone talks about "the curve" because it's much easier to say "-11 curve" than "You can miss 11 and still have the test equated to a 170." It's just easier to say, but creates common misconceptions. It's definitely not just you. :)


Many have said there is a slight curve, that for a certain test a number of individuals have to fill out the bell graph. While the I know the logical difficulty is predetermined through experimental sections, their is the potential for changes, no? If you could link me to something stating otherwise I would be grateful.

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Albatross
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Albatross » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:49 pm

JohnBoy wrote:
eskimo wrote:
CurlyKat wrote:Thank you! I'm glad to read your reply! Don't know why I thought it was curved.

Because everyone talks about "the curve" because it's much easier to say "-11 curve" than "You can miss 11 and still have the test equated to a 170." It's just easier to say, but creates common misconceptions. It's definitely not just you. :)


Many have said there is a slight curve, that for a certain test a number of individuals have to fill out the bell graph. While the I know the logical difficulty is predetermined through experimental sections, their is the potential for changes, no? If you could link me to something stating otherwise I would be grateful.


I have heard that their is potential for change. For instance, when they drop a question. Otherwise, I have heard that they already have the predetermined "curve" before we ever set eyes on the test. Sorry, no citations.

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Dany
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby Dany » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:05 pm

JohnBoy wrote:
eskimo wrote:
CurlyKat wrote:Thank you! I'm glad to read your reply! Don't know why I thought it was curved.

Because everyone talks about "the curve" because it's much easier to say "-11 curve" than "You can miss 11 and still have the test equated to a 170." It's just easier to say, but creates common misconceptions. It's definitely not just you. :)


Many have said there is a slight curve, that for a certain test a number of individuals have to fill out the bell graph. While the I know the logical difficulty is predetermined through experimental sections, their is the potential for changes, no? If you could link me to something stating otherwise I would be grateful.

LSAC's Associate Director of Psychometric Research, Lynda Reese, recently wrote the following to one test-taker who asked about the curve:

Lynda Reese wrote:[T]he LSAT is not graded to a curve...Rather, for every form of the LSAT, a statistical process called test equating is carried out to adjust for minor differences in difficulty between different forms of the test. Specifically, the item response theory (IRT) true score equating method is applied to convert raw scores (the number correct) for each administration to a common 120 to 180 scale. A detailed description of this methodology can be found in...Applications of Item Response Theory to Practical Testing Problems...The equating process assures that a particular LSAT scaled score reflects the same level of ability regardless of the ability level of others who tested on the same day or any slight differences in difficulty between different forms of the test. That is, the equating process assures that LSAT scores are comparable, regardless of the administration at which they are earned.

LSAT Blog has a whole series of posts about the score conversion process. Sources are linked in the posts.

The "potential for changes" is just the possibility of throwing out a flawed question or one with no predictive value. The changes will NOT be because of a skewed/non-representative test-taking population at a certain administration because the whole point of equating is to make all administrations equal, so that scores from different tests are comparable. Individual administrations do not have a test-taking body that is representative of the whole, so a curve based upon that group would make NO sense and admissions committees wouldn't be able to compare scores from different administrations.

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JohnBoy
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Re: October 2010 Test Prep

Postby JohnBoy » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:15 pm

eskimo wrote:
The "potential for changes" is just the possibility of throwing out a flawed question or one with no predictive value. The changes will NOT be because of a skewed/non-representative test-taking population at a certain administration because the whole point of equating is to make all administrations equal, so that scores from different tests are comparable. Individual administrations do not have a test-taking body that is representative of the whole, so a curve based upon that group would make NO sense and admissions committees wouldn't be able to compare scores from different administrations.


So technically, the test takers from the upcoming October test could all score 170+?




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