The LSAT is a traumatic experience Forum
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
I love the LSAT.
Even loved preparing for it, in a way, despite the fact that it -- along with two jobs -- put my social life into a coma.
Even loved preparing for it, in a way, despite the fact that it -- along with two jobs -- put my social life into a coma.
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
re the issue of reading comprehension... of interest to me was the fact that i scored a 750/800 (well into the 99% range) on the GRE verbal section, but consistently screwed up the reading comp section on the LSAT. of course, the GRE verbal includes a whole bunch of bull shit about vocabulary and it has been years since i took the test -- but there is enough of the reading comp passages on the GRE to make me think i should've performed similarly on the RC section of the LSAT. But even in my practice LSAT's, when i was averaging 174, i could always count on minus 3 or 4 on RC. if i were to extrapolate the -4 to each section, that would give me -16 which is like 92nd (?) percentile on the LSAT. (i know, this extrapolation probably isn't the best way of figuring a percentile performance on a single section, but still ... RC always gave me trouble).
This is not offered up as anecdotal evidence that the RC is a speed reading test or that it is not. just a point of interest. if anyone else has experienced the GRE and the LSAT recently and would like to suggest why this happened to me, i would be interested to hear. I've closed up shop on the LSAT-- but just for my information.
This is not offered up as anecdotal evidence that the RC is a speed reading test or that it is not. just a point of interest. if anyone else has experienced the GRE and the LSAT recently and would like to suggest why this happened to me, i would be interested to hear. I've closed up shop on the LSAT-- but just for my information.
- KibblesAndVick
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
For anyone who cares, I found the following study online. --LinkRemoved--
"Abstract:
Within the field of psychometrics, testing-taking speed and reasoning ability are separate abilities with little or no correlation to each other. The LSAT is a univariate test designed to measure reasoning ability; test-taking speed is assumed to be an ancillary variable with a negligible effect on candidate scores. This Article explores the possibility that test-taking speed is variable common to both the LSAT and actual law school exams. This commonality is important because it may serve to increase the predictive validity of the LSAT. The author obtained data from a national and a regional law school and followed the methodology of a typical LSAT validity study, with one important exception: student performance was disaggregated into three distinct testing methods with varying degrees of time pressure: (1) in-class exams, (2) take-home exams, and (3) papers. Consistent with the hypothesis, the data showed that the LSAT was a relatively robust predictor of in-class exams and a relatively weak predictor on take-home exams and papers. In contrast, undergraduate GPA was a relatively stable predictor on all three testing methods. The major implication of this study is that the current emphasis on time-pressured law school exams may significantly increase the relative importance of the LSAT as an admission criterion. As a result, significantly fewer minority students can be admitted through the regular admissions process. Moreover, the findings of this study suggest that when speed is used as a variable on law school exams, the type of testing method, independent of knowledge and preparation, can change the ordering (i.e., relative grades) of individual test-takers. Finally, this study found some preliminary evidence that the performance gap between white and minority students may be significantly smaller on less time-pressured testing methods, including blindgraded take-home exams. Definitive evidence on this issue will require a larger sample size."
I can't find the actual study on any of the journals my University grants access to. But, it would seem that I'm wrong and the time crunch predicts success on law school exams.
"Abstract:
Within the field of psychometrics, testing-taking speed and reasoning ability are separate abilities with little or no correlation to each other. The LSAT is a univariate test designed to measure reasoning ability; test-taking speed is assumed to be an ancillary variable with a negligible effect on candidate scores. This Article explores the possibility that test-taking speed is variable common to both the LSAT and actual law school exams. This commonality is important because it may serve to increase the predictive validity of the LSAT. The author obtained data from a national and a regional law school and followed the methodology of a typical LSAT validity study, with one important exception: student performance was disaggregated into three distinct testing methods with varying degrees of time pressure: (1) in-class exams, (2) take-home exams, and (3) papers. Consistent with the hypothesis, the data showed that the LSAT was a relatively robust predictor of in-class exams and a relatively weak predictor on take-home exams and papers. In contrast, undergraduate GPA was a relatively stable predictor on all three testing methods. The major implication of this study is that the current emphasis on time-pressured law school exams may significantly increase the relative importance of the LSAT as an admission criterion. As a result, significantly fewer minority students can be admitted through the regular admissions process. Moreover, the findings of this study suggest that when speed is used as a variable on law school exams, the type of testing method, independent of knowledge and preparation, can change the ordering (i.e., relative grades) of individual test-takers. Finally, this study found some preliminary evidence that the performance gap between white and minority students may be significantly smaller on less time-pressured testing methods, including blindgraded take-home exams. Definitive evidence on this issue will require a larger sample size."
I can't find the actual study on any of the journals my University grants access to. But, it would seem that I'm wrong and the time crunch predicts success on law school exams.
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
This is absolutely incorrect. The test is not "curved."Shrimps wrote:This statement is perfectly meaningless. The LSAT is graded on a curve. There can be no increase in people who score 170+ without an overall increase in the number of test takers.
How are there people on this forum who still believe this crap?
Last edited by JasonR on Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
I didn't say that the LSAT was the MOST traumatic experience EVER. I'm just saying that it is pretty traumatic.
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
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Last edited by JasonR on Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- dp73816
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
GermX wrote:I didn't say that the LSAT was the MOST traumatic experience EVER. I'm just saying that it is pretty traumatic.
It was the first time I ever "failed" at anything...so to me, it was the most traumatic ever. I get that some people loved studying for it - at first, I too enjoyed the challenge. Its when you start putting too much pressure on yourself that shit goes to hell...
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
WD Henderson, the author of the study mentioned above, has a very explicit social and ideological agenda (minimizing the role of the LSAT in admissions and increasing the role of the UGPA in admissions), which would make me personally wary of using his study before thoroughly examining his methodology.
I am disgusted by attempts to decrease the role of standardized testing and increase the role of UGPA in graduate school admissions, for this could have devastating effects on the quality of undergraduate education in the country (prospective law school applicants would be well advised to avoid any and all difficult classes, avoid classes that would help them eliminate certain intellectual weaknesses at the expense of their GPA, avoid picking interesting but tough professors, force them to choose the flakiest majors possible; colleges would be pressured into runaway grade inflation, etc.), so obviously I also have an ideological prejudice against those who advocate for it.
For the time being I will dismiss WD Henderson's study, sight unseen, as manipulative and methodologically flawed. If I can get my hands on it without paying for it, I might take a closer look.
I am disgusted by attempts to decrease the role of standardized testing and increase the role of UGPA in graduate school admissions, for this could have devastating effects on the quality of undergraduate education in the country (prospective law school applicants would be well advised to avoid any and all difficult classes, avoid classes that would help them eliminate certain intellectual weaknesses at the expense of their GPA, avoid picking interesting but tough professors, force them to choose the flakiest majors possible; colleges would be pressured into runaway grade inflation, etc.), so obviously I also have an ideological prejudice against those who advocate for it.
For the time being I will dismiss WD Henderson's study, sight unseen, as manipulative and methodologically flawed. If I can get my hands on it without paying for it, I might take a closer look.
- typ3
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
From my own experience of having a major in the humanities and one within the hard sciences, I would've never stuck with my hard sciences of UGPA was weighted more heavily. I have no problem keeping a 3.9-4.0 in the humanities.. but crap like Ochem, PChem and microbio all seemed to go south for me.
- PDaddy
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
But the meaning of the curve would diminish because it would be artificial. That is, the curve as it now stands has some validity in terms of test takers' influence over it. If the test makers stiffened the curve in accordance with having lowered the time requirements, that would just reinforce the maxim that the test is manipulated to say what test makers want it to say. That would undermine the test...not that it hasn't already been undermined. The test is only "curved" in a way that allows a bell-curve effect to take place so schools can distingush applicants.Shrimps wrote:
This statement is perfectly meaningless. The LSAT is graded on a curve. There can be no increase in people who score 170+ without an overall increase in the number of test takers. The curve will simply get a lot harsher with more generous time limits.
If the test was truly curved, you could theoretically have a situation where everyone answered 85% or more of the questions correct, but some people received 121. That would be ridiculous. Can you imagine getting 85 questions correct and scoring a 121? The only "curve" is the one the LSAC sets after the fact.
I agree with you on the distinction between comprehension and speed, but you have to accept that one constraint (speed) would affects the other (comprehension), so that the question becomes, "What is the test designed to measure?" Aside from that, my dfiatribe on RC has been taken too literally; RC occurs in all aspects of the test: RC, LR and LG.
The fact that someone is able to read at a slower pace and still do well doesn't diminish the validity of the argument that, for most people, the time constraint necessarily intorduces artificial, and somewhat pointless, measures and exercises.
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
The thing is, it's the curve, and not the score, that has any meaning for law schools. The only purpose of the LSAT is to rank all the law school applicants, not give some abstract number to each one of them. LSAC considers it unacceptable for a variety of reasons to eliminate the cutesy "120-180" scale altogether and simply report to each test taker (and law school) the applicant's percentile rank: it's not the number 173 that top law schools are interested in but the fact that people who score 173+ score in the top 1% of all test takers. Replacing the abstract score with a cold percentile rank is considered too ego-bruising, apparently.
But if the test loses its ability to rank, say, the top 10% of all test takers (something that's happened to numerous standardized test already: Math SAT-II awards the perfect 800 to 10% of all who take it), either top law schools will pressure LSAC to find other ways to rank those at the top or the LSAT will lose its influence with top law schools, something LSAC is clearly not interested in.
So if the time limit is made more generous, LSAC will compensate by significantly increasing the number of difficult questions, among other things.
I constantly run out of time on the logic games. But if the time limit to answer the 23 questions is increased from 35 to, say, 45 minutes but the difficulty of questions is increased to compensate, I'm not really sure it'll benefit me. Going through 5 hypotheticals to answer one question is by far the biggest time killer for me, and I will still be running out of time on a test where every other question has 5 if..then answer choices.
But if the test loses its ability to rank, say, the top 10% of all test takers (something that's happened to numerous standardized test already: Math SAT-II awards the perfect 800 to 10% of all who take it), either top law schools will pressure LSAC to find other ways to rank those at the top or the LSAT will lose its influence with top law schools, something LSAC is clearly not interested in.
So if the time limit is made more generous, LSAC will compensate by significantly increasing the number of difficult questions, among other things.
I constantly run out of time on the logic games. But if the time limit to answer the 23 questions is increased from 35 to, say, 45 minutes but the difficulty of questions is increased to compensate, I'm not really sure it'll benefit me. Going through 5 hypotheticals to answer one question is by far the biggest time killer for me, and I will still be running out of time on a test where every other question has 5 if..then answer choices.
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
Never mind OCI and callbacks. Actually, if you find it traumatic you should probably avoid the practice of law generally.vanwinkle wrote:If you think the LSAT is traumatic you should probably avoid law school and its exams.
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
yes, but it gives you so much confidence when you improve on it, especially when your retake is 7 marks higher:)
i know that i have the intelligence and dedication needed to master any sort of test. Since taking the lsat, i can now say to myself i did good on the lsat, i can do good on test x also.
i know that i have the intelligence and dedication needed to master any sort of test. Since taking the lsat, i can now say to myself i did good on the lsat, i can do good on test x also.
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- typ3
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
Lol @ the william james sidis avatar -_-Oblomov wrote:Never mind OCI and callbacks. Actually, if you find it traumatic you should probably avoid the practice of law generally.vanwinkle wrote:If you think the LSAT is traumatic you should probably avoid law school and its exams.
- vanwinkle
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
I love how people keep escalating their hate of the LSAT like it'll accomplish anything. We've gone from "The LSAT is horrible/unfair/etc." to "Abolish the LSAT" to now say "The LSAT traumatizes people". Pretty soon folks will be posting "The LSAT gave me PTSD" and "The LSAT kills people".
Anyone who can't handle the LSAT stress-wise should not go to law school, period.
Anyone who can't handle the LSAT stress-wise should not go to law school, period.
- Unemployed
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
+1vanwinkle wrote:I love how people keep escalating their hate of the LSAT like it'll accomplish anything. We've gone from "The LSAT is horrible/unfair/etc." to "Abolish the LSAT" to now say "The LSAT traumatizes people". Pretty soon folks will be posting "The LSAT gave me PTSD" and "The LSAT kills people".
Anyone who can't handle the LSAT stress-wise should not go to law school, period.
Plus, I am still flabbergasted by 0L's authoritatively claiming that there is no similarity between LSAT and law school exams.
- basicgrey7
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
Can I have your brain?UTexas wrote:I love the LSAT.
Even loved preparing for it, in a way, despite the fact that it -- along with two jobs -- put my social life into a coma.
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- theZeigs
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
+ 1
TITCR
(This Thread Is The Credited Read)
TITCR
(This Thread Is The Credited Read)
- Ragged
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
Here's a lolcat to relieve your stress/help heal your trauma:
--ImageRemoved--
--ImageRemoved--
- basicgrey7
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
Ragged wrote:Here's a lolcat to relieve your stress/help heal your trauma:
--ImageRemoved--
- theZeigs
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
Ad hominem. Fail.Shrimps wrote:WD Henderson, the author of the study mentioned above, has a very explicit social and ideological agenda (minimizing the role of the LSAT in admissions and increasing the role of the UGPA in admissions), which would make me personally wary of using his study before thoroughly examining his methodology.
For the time being I will dismiss WD Henderson's study, sight unseen, as manipulative and methodologically flawed. If I can get my hands on it without paying for it, I might take a closer look.
As a TA, I already see some of this. People drop out of the more difficult Chem class because they want an easy A. Many of these are people who already had an A in the more difficult class. Students gripe like crazy over a few points, all but forcing you to give them points when clearly they're not warranted. "What happens when you slam a bell curve against a wall?" I ask. I have found that there's no such thing as "the Gentleman's C" anymore; the GPA system is a joke (B is average?!? WTF). Not to mention people who take minimum requirements for e.g. med school and then switch to a "softer" major to ensure that they keep up their GPA while studying for the MCAT for a year straight. Also, standardized testing is made to ensure that widely different educations are normalized; I have seen some classes at one school be incredibly difficult and delve deep into the subject matter while the same class at another school be much more superficial.Shrimps wrote: I am disgusted by attempts to decrease the role of standardized testing and increase the role of UGPA in graduate school admissions, for this could have devastating effects on the quality of undergraduate education in the country (prospective law school applicants would be well advised to avoid any and all difficult classes, avoid classes that would help them eliminate certain intellectual weaknesses at the expense of their GPA, avoid picking interesting but tough professors, force them to choose the flakiest majors possible; colleges would be pressured into runaway grade inflation, etc.), so obviously I also have an ideological prejudice against those who advocate for it.
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
The LSAT, along with the whole law school application process, is one of the most humbling experiences most of us have ever faced. Admittedly, I think that the vast majority of law school applicants are type-A, hard-working, very intelligent and capable people, and the fact that we are actually judged (as students and as people) by a couple of numbers and a few lines on our personal statements is extremely disconcerting. Personally, I literally had to come to peace with the idea that maybe I wasn't meant to go to law school, or that I should change my whole view about how to approach the rest of my life. The law school application process is something over which we type-A's unfortunately have very little control, and that drove me crazy.
Don't get me wrong, I did very well on the LSAT, but even now, I think that having the events of one morning literally determine the trajectory of your life is a most traumatic and humbling experience. The hardest part of the whole experience is keeping calm and focused. Oh, and trying to live in the meantime is slightly important, as well.
Don't get me wrong, I did very well on the LSAT, but even now, I think that having the events of one morning literally determine the trajectory of your life is a most traumatic and humbling experience. The hardest part of the whole experience is keeping calm and focused. Oh, and trying to live in the meantime is slightly important, as well.
- vanwinkle
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
I'll agree with all of this.ali & ali wrote:The LSAT, along with the whole law school application process, is one of the most humbling experiences most of us have ever faced. Admittedly, I think that the vast majority of law school applicants are type-A, hard-working, very intelligent and capable people, and the fact that we are actually judged (as students and as people) by a couple of numbers and a few lines on our personal statements is extremely disconcerting. Personally, I literally had to come to peace with the idea that maybe I wasn't meant to go to law school, or that I should change my whole view about how to approach the rest of my life. The law school application process is something over which we type-A's unfortunately have very little control, and that drove me crazy.
I think the problem with the LSAT complaints is that people are arguing that they have a right to maintain control, and they don't. If you want to go to law school you'll have to face some realities you've never faced before. You're going to have to face a really hard and enduring screening process, you're going to have to face not being the best applicant under the current system and not getting into the very best school, and once you're in law school you're going to have to face, for the first time, not being at the top of your class.
This is true for almost everyone. I'm at a T10 law school, a school ranked highly enough and with enough prestige that it can attract a class full of people who have always been the best at what they did. The problem is that in a room full of people who've all done their best, they can't all be the best among the people in that room. Most of them won't be, and law school will make most of them face not being the best for the first time in their lives.
People have natural reactions. They get angry, they get upset, they get frustrated. They call the system unfair because they know they're capable of being the best and if the system were "more fair" then they would've achieved to that level. Of course, what they mean by "more fair" is "more suited to their particular strengths", because the test is fair (it targets everyone equally and has no inherent biases against any particular class of people), it just has a methodology that plays to other individuals' strengths just a little more and gives those others an edge that is resented or otherwise unliked.
All of this occurs for the first time with the LSAT itself, but it continues through the application process and into law school itself. Law school exams are like the LSAT in this way, that they demand a high degree of preparation to do well, and that there is an element that someone who has otherwise done well their entire lives might prepare for months and still not get the best score on test day. They require a huge amount of logical reasoning applied in an extremely limited timeframe. In this way the LSAT very much does represent the law school exam experience, and like the LSAT itself, it does cause people who have formerly done well their entire lives to fall for the first time, not due to lack of trying or ambition, but as a consequence of intense competition against others who are similarly high-achieving.
So, like I've said before, anyone who feels the LSAT is "traumatic" should not go to law school. The trials that law school exams create are going to be just as if not more traumatic, especially in that first semester where you are totally unsure how to prepare or how well you're actually going to be able to do. The LSAT is actually easier in that there's a lot more guidance and preparation available, whereas the law school exam format is a lot more fluid and can change dramatically from professor to professor. Someone who thinks preparing for and taking the LSAT is overly trying is completely unready to deal with the stressful and fluid demands of the law school exam experience. The LSAT is just an introduction to what can be a truly humbling education and (especially in this economy) a humbling profession that follows.
- dbt
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
The LSAT is a stressful experience. Having much of where you get to go to law school determined by 3.5 hours is tough.
Then again, law school exams are just as, if not more, stressful. Having your entire grade for a course determined by a 3.5 hour exam, with it usually being the case that there are fewer official old tests than there were for the LSAT. And add to that that 2L and 3L grades matter, but 1L grades matter the most.
No, I don't mind the LSAT. It's getting you ready for the real trauma ahead.
Then again, law school exams are just as, if not more, stressful. Having your entire grade for a course determined by a 3.5 hour exam, with it usually being the case that there are fewer official old tests than there were for the LSAT. And add to that that 2L and 3L grades matter, but 1L grades matter the most.
No, I don't mind the LSAT. It's getting you ready for the real trauma ahead.
- LawandOrder
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Re: The LSAT is a traumatic experience
God damn kids these days. You think the fucking LSAT is traumatic!? Back when I was your age I was being shot at damn near constantly while on patrol back in 'Nam!
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!
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