How much gain from last 30 PTs?

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BigA
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How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby BigA » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:23 am

So I've gone through both Bibles (once), Superprep and about 20 PTs with explanations. I have at least 30 PTs I can still take. It seems like it's getting harder to make gains at this point, and my last 10 or so PTs haven't improved much. I'm sure there is some principle of diminishing returns at play. But I'm wondering if many people here have made real gains later on in their studying and how? I plan on really hitting games and LR by question type after about PT 40. Games are still my weakest area by far.

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typ3
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby typ3 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:26 am

There are three bibles, not two. If games are your weakest section, redo old games. Mark your time and score. Do every game 3 times 100% correct and under 8:45 and profit. Wait 3-4 days between attempting games again.

Unless you are scoring 100% every test, there is a weakness to be addressed and therefore points to be made. Yes, after a certain level gains become harder to acquire mostly because each wrong answer is a point off. If you're already scoring 170+ try to work on maintaining your focus and not giving away easy mistakes like those originating in transcription errors.

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BigA
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby BigA » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:16 am

typ3 wrote:There are three bibles, not two. If games are your weakest section, redo old games. Mark your time and score. Do every game 3 times 100% correct and under 8:45 and profit. Wait 3-4 days between attempting games again.

Unless you are scoring 100% every test, there is a weakness to be addressed and therefore points to be made. Yes, after a certain level gains become harder to acquire mostly because each wrong answer is a point off. If you're already scoring 170+ try to work on maintaining your focus and not giving away easy mistakes like those originating in transcription errors.


Thanks for the tips. I kind of disagree with you on one point. I think gains in a sense would be easier above 170 because each point increased in raw score = one point in converted score. Whereas in the 150s and 160s it takes two points (usually) to raise your converted score by one. Unless I'm viewing it the wrong way... The problem is each point of raw score would be SO hard.

Anyway, no I am not even close to that range. I am PTing in the low 160s at this point. Hoping to get to the upper 160s. But really been wondering if that's realistic lately :roll:

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cardnal124
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby cardnal124 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:26 am

BigA wrote:Thanks for the tips. I kind of disagree with you on one point. I think gains in a sense would be easier above 170 because each point increased in raw score = one point in converted score. Whereas in the 150s and 160s it takes two points (usually) to raise your converted score by one. Unless I'm viewing it the wrong way... The problem is each point of raw score would be SO hard.


Not the case at all. Thats why 173 starts the 99th percentile and 180 ends it. Only around 1.5k people score in that range every year, yet only half that above 175. Diminishing returns at that point, or else there would be more 175+. The higher you start, the fewer points you will be able to add to your score. At that point, it is a lot of luck of the draw as far as types of questions/games/passages to increase a high score.

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BigA
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby BigA » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:40 am

cardnal124 wrote:
BigA wrote:Thanks for the tips. I kind of disagree with you on one point. I think gains in a sense would be easier above 170 because each point increased in raw score = one point in converted score. Whereas in the 150s and 160s it takes two points (usually) to raise your converted score by one. Unless I'm viewing it the wrong way... The problem is each point of raw score would be SO hard.


Not the case at all. Thats why 173 starts the 99th percentile and 180 ends it. Only around 1.5k people score in that range every year, yet only half that above 175. Diminishing returns at that point, or else there would be more 175+. The higher you start, the fewer points you will be able to add to your score. At that point, it is a lot of luck of the draw as far as types of questions/games/passages to increase a high score.


Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I meant gains are easier (for lack of a better word) only in the sense that you need to raise your raw score fewer points to make the same gain in converted score. I don't doubt that the difficulty in increasing the raw score by each point is exponentially harder. If you can see the minor point I was referring to in the previous post it might make better sense. I didn't mean to get the conversation sidetracked.

spearnreel
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby spearnreel » Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:39 am

[quote="cardnal124"]Thats why 173 starts the 99th percentile and 180 ends it. Only around 1.5k people score in that range every year, yet only half that above 175.quote]

Your statistics...assuming that 150,000 tests are administered during the given year. I don't know...is the LSAT dished out that many times per year?

Shrimps
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby Shrimps » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:21 pm

I have also taken over 20 PTs already. I've been stuck on 5 mistakes per three sections combined (LR, LR, RC) for 8 tests straight then yesterday got only -2 combined. I'll take another PT today, see how I do, but I'm approaching it with the attitude that if you UNDERSTAND the mistakes you've made, it is perfectly within your grasp to eliminate all similar mistakes in the future. Notice your weaknesses and stay conscious of them throughout the test. Defeatism won't get you far.

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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby Shrimps » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:26 pm

spearnreel wrote:
cardnal124 wrote:Thats why 173 starts the 99th percentile and 180 ends it. Only around 1.5k people score in that range every year, yet only half that above 175.


Your statistics...assuming that 150,000 tests are administered during the given year. I don't know...is the LSAT dished out that many times per year?


Indeed, around 140,000 people take the LSAT annually. What a horrifying horde of ambulance chasers to imagine. And according to a little table I have, about 700 people score in the 173-174 range and another 700 people score in the 175-180 range. One little mistake and you're outside of the rarefied group of the seven hundred 175+ scorers, and end up in the banal top one percentile, as if that's going to impress anyone.

yeff
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby yeff » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:09 pm

Many PTs is key, but if you've plateau'ed, spend more time examining common mistakes and deconstructing the games or LR types you struggle on.

Parallel reasoning questions would absolutely derail LR sections when I started studying, but after really focusing in on them, I internalizing the strategy and could answer them quickly and correctly in much less time.

Try to find improvements along those lines by going over your mistakes more thoroughly.

Just my 2 cents.

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kazu
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby kazu » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:45 pm

BigA wrote:So I've gone through both Bibles (once), Superprep and about 20 PTs with explanations. I have at least 30 PTs I can still take. It seems like it's getting harder to make gains at this point, and my last 10 or so PTs haven't improved much. I'm sure there is some principle of diminishing returns at play. But I'm wondering if many people here have made real gains later on in their studying and how? I plan on really hitting games and LR by question type after about PT 40. Games are still my weakest area by far.

Why after PT40? If I were you I'd start "really hitting" games & LR by question type far before then. Generally, accuracy should come first, then speed, then endurance. Just burning through the PTs won't help at all, especially if you're beginning to plateau. I agree with typ3, redo old games (with time in between so you're not solving them by memory) and review, review, review the questions you've gotten wrong and the questions you barely got right.

Also, even if you do feel like you've hit a dead end don't lose hope, keep going... When I was studying my score increases went up in steps, not gradually. I swear for me games "clicked" overnight - after a month of barely finishing on time and getting 1~8 wrong suddenly I was finishing well within 25 minutes (!) and maintaining a -0. The same happened with LR as well, albeit less obviously.

Good luck!

tomwatts
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby tomwatts » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:18 pm

If I remember correctly from 4 years ago, I went from mid-150's to mid-160's within a couple of weeks. Then it took about the next month to get from mid-160's to mid-170's. Then I spent a little bit more time killing off those last few errors and PTed a 180 a few weeks later. So, if I'm remembering this correctly, it was the 165-to-175 jump that was the hardest to achieve and took the longest. I remember my LR pattern (from doing one about every other day) was -4, -4, -4, -4, -3, -3, -3, -3, -2, -2, -2, -2 and so on for the last month or so. It was about a raw point per week in that section. RC was similar.

So yes, score improvements do come slowly at that point sometimes, but they do come.

spearnreel
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby spearnreel » Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:18 pm

Shrimps wrote:
spearnreel wrote:
cardnal124 wrote:Thats why 173 starts the 99th percentile and 180 ends it. Only around 1.5k people score in that range every year, yet only half that above 175.


Your statistics...assuming that 150,000 tests are administered during the given year. I don't know...is the LSAT dished out that many times per year?


Indeed, around 140,000 people take the LSAT annually. What a horrifying horde of ambulance chasers to imagine. And according to a little table I have, about 700 people score in the 173-174 range and another 700 people score in the 175-180 range. One little mistake and you're outside of the rarefied group of the seven hundred 175+ scorers, and end up in the banal top one percentile, as if that's going to impress anyone.


Where can I access these distributions...not only for recent administrations but for older tests as well?

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BigA
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby BigA » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:00 am

kazu wrote:Why after PT40? If I were you I'd start "really hitting" games & LR by question type far before then. Generally, accuracy should come first, then speed, then endurance. Just burning through the PTs won't help at all, especially if you're beginning to plateau.


Well, my reason is I have gotten from these boards a wonderfully compiled list of all games by type that goes up to PT 41 I believe. I thought I'd finish doing these PTs one at a time until then and then redo them that way. Good idea? I didn't mean to make it sound like I'm "burning through the PTs". On the contraray, I'm going through them carefully with Kaplan explanations, often one question at a time for LR. I hope I'm not wasting my time. I've never heard anyone else on these boards say that they've done it like this. I'm trying to get the most out of all the materials I have.



Also, even if you do feel like you've hit a dead end don't lose hope, keep going... When I was studying my score increases went up in steps, not gradually. I swear for me games "clicked" overnight - after a month of barely finishing on time and getting 1~8 wrong suddenly I was finishing well within 25 minutes (!) and maintaining a -0. The same happened with LR as well, albeit less obviously.


I envy you. Actually a couple times I've felt like I've "turned a corner" after a great section or a couple back to back, only to get hammered by that section shortly thereafter. Turns out I've just had hot streaks. Nice to know it can happen though :D

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BigA
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby BigA » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:23 pm

tomwatts wrote:If I remember correctly from 4 years ago, I went from mid-150's to mid-160's within a couple of weeks. Then it took about the next month to get from mid-160's to mid-170's. Then I spent a little bit more time killing off those last few errors and PTed a 180 a few weeks later. So, if I'm remembering this correctly, it was the 165-to-175 jump that was the hardest to achieve and took the longest. I remember my LR pattern (from doing one about every other day) was -4, -4, -4, -4, -3, -3, -3, -3, -2, -2, -2, -2 and so on for the last month or so. It was about a raw point per week in that section. RC was similar.

So yes, score improvements do come slowly at that point sometimes, but they do come.


BTW, mid-150s to 180 in just a couple months... that's impressive!

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kinch
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby kinch » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:31 pm

You definitely want to keep taking em, although they go down in importance the older the PTs are.

waxecstatic
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby waxecstatic » Thu Mar 18, 2010 4:55 pm

BigA wrote:
tomwatts wrote:If I remember correctly from 4 years ago, I went from mid-150's to mid-160's within a couple of weeks. Then it took about the next month to get from mid-160's to mid-170's. Then I spent a little bit more time killing off those last few errors and PTed a 180 a few weeks later. So, if I'm remembering this correctly, it was the 165-to-175 jump that was the hardest to achieve and took the longest. I remember my LR pattern (from doing one about every other day) was -4, -4, -4, -4, -3, -3, -3, -3, -2, -2, -2, -2 and so on for the last month or so. It was about a raw point per week in that section. RC was similar.

So yes, score improvements do come slowly at that point sometimes, but they do come.


BTW, mid-150s to 180 in just a couple months... that's impressive!


I read the LGB in one weekend. I spent the next 4 weeks only doing games. I haven't gotten a games question wrong in a while. Stop taking so many PTs and focus on games. If you have any specific questions I can help you out. PM me.

tomwatts
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby tomwatts » Fri Mar 19, 2010 12:09 am

BigA wrote:
tomwatts wrote:If I remember correctly from 4 years ago, I went from mid-150's to mid-160's within a couple of weeks. Then it took about the next month to get from mid-160's to mid-170's. Then I spent a little bit more time killing off those last few errors and PTed a 180 a few weeks later. So, if I'm remembering this correctly, it was the 165-to-175 jump that was the hardest to achieve and took the longest. I remember my LR pattern (from doing one about every other day) was -4, -4, -4, -4, -3, -3, -3, -3, -2, -2, -2, -2 and so on for the last month or so. It was about a raw point per week in that section. RC was similar.

So yes, score improvements do come slowly at that point sometimes, but they do come.


BTW, mid-150s to 180 in just a couple months... that's impressive!

I think the biggest thing was that I was already an SAT teacher at the time, so I knew how to study for a standardized test. I got how it works. I didn't start out being really good at the LSAT, but I did start out being really good at studying for the LSAT.

knightrider2002
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby knightrider2002 » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:10 am

I apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread but, for all those who did use the LGB, did it really help? I've never read through it before but I average around 1-4 wrong on the section.

waxecstatic
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Re: How much gain from last 30 PTs?

Postby waxecstatic » Fri Mar 19, 2010 11:52 am

knightrider2002 wrote:I apologize to the OP for hijacking the thread but, for all those who did use the LGB, did it really help? I've never read through it before but I average around 1-4 wrong on the section.


It only helps if you do not know what to do when you see a logic game. Honestly, I felt some of it was useless and redundant. I wouldn't advise reading it to the point of exhaustion. You're better off practicing the games.




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