Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Shrimps
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Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby Shrimps » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:16 pm

I keep running out of time even on fairly simple AR games. If you had the same problem as I and (short of practice, practice, practice) found a useful solution, care to share the secret with the rest of us? I've done over a dozen PT's so far and this is my WEAKEST area by far: I need 10 minutes, sometimes more, to do even a straightforward game, and if I hurry, I start making mistakes.

Again, my weakness is not so much the difficulty of each game (given enough time it's pretty easy to find correct answers through straightforward elimination, obviously), but speed. Any suggestions?

LGB has not been much help in this regard: I'm doing the chapter on linear games and their strategy is not much different from the one I developed for myself.

P.S. I hate logic games.

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Atlas LSAT Teacher
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby Atlas LSAT Teacher » Mon Feb 22, 2010 3:27 pm

There are a couple of factors that impact your speed:

1. Sheer mental speed. This is improved by repeating games and pushing yourself.

2. Efficacy of your diagrams. Obviously I'm biased towards the ones that I use, but make sure you're using some sort of system. Frankly, it's your use of the system that is more important than the quality of the system, but there are definitely some diagrams out there that are quite inefficient.

3. Your approach. You may be relying on trial and error too much. Top test-takers make inferences and for most questions do no trial and error (this is particularly true for conditional questions, "If X is third . . ." For this, you want to review a game, figuring out how you could have done it without too much trial and error, figuring out all the inferences you could have made. Then re-play the game a few days later, playing it like a superstar, and then re-play it a couple of weeks later to "seal-in" the goodness.

Shrimps
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby Shrimps » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:14 pm

I hate, hate, hate, hate, HATE logic games.

letsdoit1982
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby letsdoit1982 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:18 pm

Atlas LSAT Teacher wrote:There are a couple of factors that impact your speed:

1. Sheer mental speed. This is improved by repeating games and pushing yourself.

2. Efficacy of your diagrams. Obviously I'm biased towards the ones that I use, but make sure you're using some sort of system. Frankly, it's your use of the system that is more important than the quality of the system, but there are definitely some diagrams out there that are quite inefficient.

3. Your approach. You may be relying on trial and error too much. Top test-takers make inferences and for most questions do no trial and error (this is particularly true for conditional questions, "If X is third . . ." For this, you want to review a game, figuring out how you could have done it without too much trial and error, figuring out all the inferences you could have made. Then re-play the game a few days later, playing it like a superstar, and then re-play it a couple of weeks later to "seal-in" the goodness.



By trial and error, do you mean hypotheticals?

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blerg
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby blerg » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:21 pm

Logic games were initially the hardest for me, and I ended up -0 on my test. In the beginning I could MAYBE get through 2 of the games.

I found the most helpful thing for me was to do the ENTIRE Powerscore Bible then to do 10-15 sections of older PTs totally untimed and really concentrate on being effective in my diagramming, learning how to make the inferences, etc.

Once I'd done so many, my speed had naturally increased and by the point in my studying that I was just doing full PTs all the time, I had no real problem with timing.

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BigFatPanda
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby BigFatPanda » Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:31 pm

Try this approach:

1. Read logic game bible.
2. Take the games on pretests 30-38, they are relatively easy games comparing to modern games. This is because a lot of them are mastering the possibilities. Once you get comfortable, go to step 3.
3. Take the games from pretests 7-28, they are medium difficult because the sheer variety of game types that requires strategies beyond mastering the possibilities. Once complete, go to step 4
4. Take games from pretests 39-56, these games are relatively hard because of the advance linear mastering the possibilities and in/out game types. Once complete. Go to step 5.
5. Take the pretest 29 and June 2009, specifically, the dinosaur game from 2009 and the manniquen game from 29. If you can do these two games in 9 minutes and do them correctly, you are guarantee to do any game correctly within 9 minutes. Also, get the LSAC book on februrary 1996, 1999 games. Those games are perhaps the hardest you will ever see on the LSAT.

This approach is a step by step escalation that will eventually ease you into the mood of taking on games. Good hunting.

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Atlas LSAT Teacher
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby Atlas LSAT Teacher » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:22 pm

letsdoit1982 wrote:
Atlas LSAT Teacher wrote:There are a couple of factors that impact your speed:

1. Sheer mental speed. This is improved by repeating games and pushing yourself.

2. Efficacy of your diagrams. Obviously I'm biased towards the ones that I use, but make sure you're using some sort of system. Frankly, it's your use of the system that is more important than the quality of the system, but there are definitely some diagrams out there that are quite inefficient.

3. Your approach. You may be relying on trial and error too much. Top test-takers make inferences and for most questions do no trial and error (this is particularly true for conditional questions, "If X is third . . ." For this, you want to review a game, figuring out how you could have done it without too much trial and error, figuring out all the inferences you could have made. Then re-play the game a few days later, playing it like a superstar, and then re-play it a couple of weeks later to "seal-in" the goodness.



By trial and error, do you mean hypotheticals?

Yup, that's one form of trial and error. The other - more typical one - is testing out an answer choice and seeing if it works. Both are slower than you generally want to move.

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nsideirish
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby nsideirish » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:48 pm

It really is all about making the best diagram possible and making the correct inferences. If you do this, games should take no more than 8 minutes each.

Obviously this is a lot easier said than done...but as I become better at making inferences, the games are becoming much easier/quicker.

letsdoit1982
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby letsdoit1982 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:24 pm

nsideirish wrote:It really is all about making the best diagram possible and making the correct inferences. If you do this, games should take no more than 8 minutes each.

Obviously this is a lot easier said than done...but as I become better at making inferences, the games are becoming much easier/quicker.



So you're saying the key to doing well on LG is to spend a lot of time on the initial set up?

I try to find all the initial inferences, but sometimes this is really hard to do. Obviously, most of them are easy, but often times there are some really tricky ones that force you to consider a bunch of outcomes when variable are placed in certain places.

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nsideirish
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby nsideirish » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:26 pm

letsdoit1982 wrote:
nsideirish wrote:It really is all about making the best diagram possible and making the correct inferences. If you do this, games should take no more than 8 minutes each.

Obviously this is a lot easier said than done...but as I become better at making inferences, the games are becoming much easier/quicker.



So you're saying the key to doing well on LG is to spend a lot of time on the initial set up?

I try to find all the initial inferences, but sometimes this is really hard to do. Obviously, most of them are easy, but often times there are some really tricky ones that force you to consider a bunch of outcomes when variable are placed in certain places.


I have found that this has been the most efficient and successful approach for me. If you get the right inferences, the questions will be a breeze. I think its worthwhile to take a good hard look at the diagram/rules and come up with inferences.
But it may vary from person to person. Whatever works for you. It isn't a 'one size fits all' type thing.

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s0ph1e2007
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby s0ph1e2007 » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:54 pm

Atlas LSAT Teacher wrote:There are a couple of factors that impact your speed:

1. Sheer mental speed. This is improved by repeating games and pushing yourself.

2. Efficacy of your diagrams. Obviously I'm biased towards the ones that I use, but make sure you're using some sort of system. Frankly, it's your use of the system that is more important than the quality of the system, but there are definitely some diagrams out there that are quite inefficient.

3. Your approach. You may be relying on trial and error too much. Top test-takers make inferences and for most questions do no trial and error (this is particularly true for conditional questions, "If X is third . . ." For this, you want to review a game, figuring out how you could have done it without too much trial and error, figuring out all the inferences you could have made. Then re-play the game a few days later, playing it like a superstar, and then re-play it a couple of weeks later to "seal-in" the goodness.


It's true that inferences are important but the last couple LSATs have really made it clear that LSAC is gearing the LG section now towards being a majority plug and chug section, so you just have to be extremely fast.
You should not feel like you are spending a lot of time on anything.

Also apparently the third LG is often the most time consuming so people suggest you do LG 1,2,4 and finish with 3

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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:55 pm

s0ph1e2007 wrote:
Also apparently the third LG is often the most time consuming so people suggest you do LG 1,2,4 and finish with 3


I usually pick the game with more questions out of the last 2 to do first. What have they been doing with #3? like a 6 or 7 questions deal? If it was 5 I will def. skip it.

Shrimps
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby Shrimps » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:35 am

Hm.. for some stupid reason I just did the dinosaur game because everyone said it was hard. Eh. Got all the 6 answers right. Problem is, it probably took me at least 12 minutes (should've checked), likely more, maybe even more than 15.

P.S. I hate logic games. Or, actually, I hate the 35 minute constraint. In 50 minutes, I would've had a perfect score almost every time. Heh.

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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby jpSartre » Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:39 am

BigFatPanda wrote:Try this approach:

1. Read logic game bible.
2. Take the games on pretests 30-38, they are relatively easy games comparing to modern games. This is because a lot of them are mastering the possibilities. Once you get comfortable, go to step 3.
3. Take the games from pretests 7-28, they are medium difficult because the sheer variety of game types that requires strategies beyond mastering the possibilities. Once complete, go to step 4
4. Take games from pretests 39-56, these games are relatively hard because of the advance linear mastering the possibilities and in/out game types. Once complete. Go to step 5.
5. Take the pretest 29 and June 2009, specifically, the dinosaur game from 2009 and the manniquen game from 29. If you can do these two games in 9 minutes and do them correctly, you are guarantee to do any game correctly within 9 minutes. Also, get the LSAC book on februrary 1996, 1999 games. Those games are perhaps the hardest you will ever see on the LSAT.

This approach is a step by step escalation that will eventually ease you into the mood of taking on games. Good hunting.


TLS wisdom generally says the opposite. More recent games are easier, older games are harder. I haven't gotten to them yet, but that seems to be the typical attitude

s0ph1e2007 wrote:It's true that inferences are important but the last couple LSATs have really made it clear that LSAC is gearing the LG section now towards being a majority plug and chug section, so you just have to be extremely fast.


This is very interesting.

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Atlas LSAT Teacher
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby Atlas LSAT Teacher » Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:59 am

s0ph1e2007 wrote: It's true that inferences are important but the last couple LSATs have really made it clear that LSAC is gearing the LG section now towards being a majority plug and chug section, so you just have to be extremely fast.

Interesting, I haven't noticed that. Maybe you mean there aren't as many "cascades" of inferences. Can you give some examples of games that you think are really plug and chug games?

letsdoit1982
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby letsdoit1982 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:56 pm

jpSartre wrote:
BigFatPanda wrote:Try this approach:

1. Read logic game bible.
2. Take the games on pretests 30-38, they are relatively easy games comparing to modern games. This is because a lot of them are mastering the possibilities. Once you get comfortable, go to step 3.
3. Take the games from pretests 7-28, they are medium difficult because the sheer variety of game types that requires strategies beyond mastering the possibilities. Once complete, go to step 4
4. Take games from pretests 39-56, these games are relatively hard because of the advance linear mastering the possibilities and in/out game types. Once complete. Go to step 5.
5. Take the pretest 29 and June 2009, specifically, the dinosaur game from 2009 and the manniquen game from 29. If you can do these two games in 9 minutes and do them correctly, you are guarantee to do any game correctly within 9 minutes. Also, get the LSAC book on februrary 1996, 1999 games. Those games are perhaps the hardest you will ever see on the LSAT.

This approach is a step by step escalation that will eventually ease you into the mood of taking on games. Good hunting.


TLS wisdom generally says the opposite. More recent games are easier, older games are harder. I haven't gotten to them yet, but that seems to be the typical attitude


s0ph1e2007 wrote:It's true that inferences are important but the last couple LSATs have really made it clear that LSAC is gearing the LG section now towards being a majority plug and chug section, so you just have to be extremely fast.


This is very interesting.



This is true, but recently LG has taken a violent shift towards having more difficult games (at least one).

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PopCopyManager
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby PopCopyManager » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:01 pm

I agree with the advice given so far... practice will certainly help, so do as much as you can.

However, one of my instructors gave me a GREAT piece of advice: Do not always try to PROVE your answer right (unless you have extra time). How many times have you wasted a minute or two confirming what you already knew was the correct answer? Using this approach, I went from not finishing the last 2 games, to not finishing maybe 1 question on the last game. It seems obvious, but give it a try.

Best of luck!

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nsideirish
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby nsideirish » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:04 pm

PopCopyManager wrote:I agree with the advice given so far... practice will certainly help, so do as much as you can.

However, one of my instructors gave me a GREAT piece of advice: Do not always try to PROVE your answer right (unless you have extra time). How many times have you wasted a minute or two confirming what you already knew was the correct answer? Using this approach, I went from not finishing the last 2 games, to not finishing maybe 1 question on the last game. It seems obvious, but give it a try.

Best of luck!


I like this advice. Sometimes, you KNOW the correct answer but you have to justify it to yourself by proving it. This adds a lot of time. I need to start doing this more and get over my OCD tendencies of proving to myself that my answer is correct before I move on.

Shrimps
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby Shrimps » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:18 pm

This is true, but recently LG has taken a violent shift towards having more difficult games (at least one).


Which one?
Last edited by Shrimps on Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

utswdukie80
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby utswdukie80 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:19 pm

First, most people would get them all right given unliimited time, the key is speed. I went from a -12 on the diagnostic to a -2 on the LSAT (and both were stupid mistakes). These are the things I found the most helpful (most courtesy of TPR): 1) Do the easiest game(s) first, that way you have more time for the harder games, 2) identify what type of game it is (IN/OUT, Ordering, etc.), that will aid you tremendously in the set-up 3) answer the questions in each game in the following order: grab-a-rule (first question), specific questions (if..then), general and finally change-a-rule, 4) make sure your diagram is set-up properly and you've deduced as many inferences as you can 5) once you have what you think is the right answer, pick it and move on. As someone else already said, don't waste time proving your answer or disproving others. There's only one right anwer, when you have it move on.

Of course, those are all speed/test-taking skills, to develop those you have no choice but to practice. Make several copies of each game, work one, then come back to it again several days/weeks later and work it again.

letsdoit1982
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby letsdoit1982 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:23 pm

utswdukie80 wrote:First, most people would get them all right given unliimited time, the key is speed. I went from a -12 on the diagnostic to a -2 on the LSAT (and both were stupid mistakes). These are the things I found the most helpful (most courtesy of TPR): 1) Do the easiest game(s) first, that way you have more time for the harder games, 2) identify what type of game it is (IN/OUT, Ordering, etc.), that will aid you tremendously in the set-up 3) answer the questions in each game in the following order: grab-a-rule (first question), specific questions (if..then), general and finally change-a-rule, 4) make sure your diagram is set-up properly and you've deduced as many inferences as you can 5) once you have what you think is the right answer, pick it and move on. As someone else already said, don't waste time proving your answer or disproving others. There's only one right anwer, when you have it move on.

Of course, those are all speed/test-taking skills, to develop those you have no choice but to practice. Make several copies of each game, work one, then come back to it again several days/weeks later and work it again.


I think this would waste a bunch of time because you don't know how hard a game is until you've read set up and the rules. If you realize that it's a hard game and decide to skip it, you then have to reread at least part of the game when you come back to it.

letsdoit1982
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby letsdoit1982 » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:28 pm

Shrimps wrote:
This is true, but recently LG has taken a violent shift towards having more difficult games (at least one).


Which one?


When I was taking PTs, it seemed like the semi-recent tests (tests earlier than PT52) did not have any hard games. However, the more recent tests have thrown in a curve ball (i.e., the bus game, Dinos, etc.).

secant
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby secant » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:42 pm

I used the LG Bible to learn an approach and then just practiced a lot to improve my speed. Between the published LSATs and the books with LSAT-like games such as PR and Ace the LSAT you have access to hundreds of games. Do as many as you can - timed with a review afterwards. I also found value in repeating games after having enough others to forget the specifics.

hotdoglaw
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby hotdoglaw » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:45 pm

I would advise looking into amphetamine salts or straight crystal meth. I guarantee that you'll be able to increase your speed, accuracy and alertness.

secant
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Re: Too slow on logic games. Any advice?

Postby secant » Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:45 pm

secant wrote:I used the LG Bible to learn an approach and then just practiced a lot to improve my speed. Between the published LSATs and the books with LSAT-like games such as PR and Ace the LSAT you have access to hundreds of games. Do as many as you can - timed with a review afterwards. I also found value in repeating games after having enough others to forget the specifics.


Just to add based on what others have said there are lots of ways to approach the games (e.g. more or less initial setup time, try to do the games in some order other in that in which they are presented, etc.). Practice enough and you'll figure out what works for you.




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