retake with a 173?

pdiddy89
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retake with a 173?

Postby pdiddy89 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:07 am

i currently have about a 3.82 gpa from uchicago. i scored a 173 on the december lsat (only time i took the test). i know these stats make me very competitive at most places, but make hys probably all long shots. i was scoring 175-176 consistently on practice tests and just didn't have my best day when i took the test for real. is it worth considering retaking the test to make myself more competitive at hys?

lawyering
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby lawyering » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:09 am

Personally, I don't think adding a few points would make a huge difference for HYS. I think you should focus on getting some really good LORs and writing a damn good Personal Statement, and you should be set for at least one, if not two or three of HYS. FWIW, I've gotten into H and S with a 3.97/170, so numbers aren't everything.

februaryftw
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby februaryftw » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:20 am

I think if you want to retake you should try to get your average higher than 175-176. A 173 is still within the normal range of a 175-176 "real" score, and should not be considered abnormally low for your PT average.

democrattotheend
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby democrattotheend » Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:52 pm

Wow, we are exact number twins. I do think HYS are long shots for both of us, but since they either average or consider all scores, I am not sure that raising your score 2 points would make much of a difference, especially this late in the cycle (although Yale says they accept the February LSAT and it's not a disadvantage. But I don't even know if Harvard and Stanford accept the February LSAT).

Also, if you were only scoring 2-3 points above on prep tests, there's no guarantee you'll do better. Most people drop at least a few points on the real test. I didn't think it would happen to me but it did...173 was probably around my PT average, but I got more wrong in December than on most prep tests, and I didn't finish the LG and gave away 3 easy points as a result.

If you were consistently scoring 178-180 it might be worth retaking, but if you only dropped by a couple points from your PT average it probably isn't worth it.

BTW, where have you gotten in so far? Or are you applying next year?

lakerfanimal
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby lakerfanimal » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:02 pm

februaryftw wrote:I think if you want to retake you should try to get your average higher than 175-176. A 173 is still within the normal range of a 175-176 "real" score, and should not be considered abnormally low for your PT average.


+1. I don't think you should re-take unless you average higher. Most people I feel score within 2 points of their average. I don't think you would improve your chances all that much at H unless you scored 3 points higher or so and even then your score is already pretty high so I don't know how much it'd improve your chances. For Stanford your GPA is on the lower side (shows how ridiculously high their GPA's are...) so who knows if improving your score will help your chances since you already have a high score. Yale is just hard for anyone to get into haha.

ilovethelsat
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby ilovethelsat » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:52 pm

Right now, you're not competitive at HYS. Improving your score by just 2-3 points (and who knows whether you'll score higher) will make you more competitive at all schools and increase your chances of getting a scholarship.

I think you should retake the LSAT. If you do poorly on it, you can just cancel your score. If you do well on it, then your life will almost certainly change for the better.

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scribelaw
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby scribelaw » Wed Feb 10, 2010 6:59 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:Right now, you're not competitive at HYS. Improving your score by just 2-3 points (and who knows whether you'll score higher) will make you more competitive at all schools and increase your chances of getting a scholarship.

I think you should retake the LSAT. If you do poorly on it, you can just cancel your score. If you do well on it, then your life will almost certainly change for the better.


Why isn't OP competitive at HLS -- with median LSAT and near median GPA? It's hardly a lock, but a lot of people get in with those numbers.

ilovethelsat
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby ilovethelsat » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:24 pm

scribelaw wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Right now, you're not competitive at HYS. Improving your score by just 2-3 points (and who knows whether you'll score higher) will make you more competitive at all schools and increase your chances of getting a scholarship.

I think you should retake the LSAT. If you do poorly on it, you can just cancel your score. If you do well on it, then your life will almost certainly change for the better.


Why isn't OP competitive at HLS -- with median LSAT and near median GPA? It's hardly a lock, but a lot of people get in with those numbers.


LSN's 2008-2009 charts show that HLS only accepted one student with a GPA below 3.9 and an LSAT below 175. The fact of the matter is that being a non-URM male with an LSAT at the median and a GPA below the median does not make one competitive at a school like Harvard.

From the charts on LSN, it appears that a 2-3 point LSAT improvement would give the OP solid chances at Harvard.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby Nom Sawyer » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:32 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Right now, you're not competitive at HYS. Improving your score by just 2-3 points (and who knows whether you'll score higher) will make you more competitive at all schools and increase your chances of getting a scholarship.

I think you should retake the LSAT. If you do poorly on it, you can just cancel your score. If you do well on it, then your life will almost certainly change for the better.


Why isn't OP competitive at HLS -- with median LSAT and near median GPA? It's hardly a lock, but a lot of people get in with those numbers.


LSN's 2008-2009 charts show that HLS only accepted one student with a GPA below 3.9 and an LSAT below 175. The fact of the matter is that being a non-URM male with an LSAT at the median and a GPA below the median does not make one competitive at a school like Harvard.

From the charts on LSN, it appears that a 2-3 point LSAT improvement would give the OP solid chances at Harvard.


You guy's are discounting the fact of his UChicago UG...

OP, based on your average being only 2-3 points over 173, a retake wouldn't hurt, but might not help alot either.
However, I think you already have pretty decent odds (over 60% chance imo) of H admissions and a decent chance at S too. This is as those two schools probably will weigh your UG significantly in their decision.. a 3.82 from Chicago paired with a 173 is most likely into one of S or H.

For instance, at our school (T20 UG but lower than Chicago), someone with below median LSAT and about median GPA was accepted first round into H this cycle.

februaryftw
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby februaryftw » Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:23 pm

ilovethelsat wrote:
scribelaw wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Right now, you're not competitive at HYS. Improving your score by just 2-3 points (and who knows whether you'll score higher) will make you more competitive at all schools and increase your chances of getting a scholarship.

I think you should retake the LSAT. If you do poorly on it, you can just cancel your score. If you do well on it, then your life will almost certainly change for the better.


Why isn't OP competitive at HLS -- with median LSAT and near median GPA? It's hardly a lock, but a lot of people get in with those numbers.


LSN's 2008-2009 charts show that HLS only accepted one student with a GPA below 3.9 and an LSAT below 175. The fact of the matter is that being a non-URM male with an LSAT at the median and a GPA below the median does not make one competitive at a school like Harvard.

From the charts on LSN, it appears that a 2-3 point LSAT improvement would give the OP solid chances at Harvard.


You are right and wrong, I think. The LSAT cutoff for a GPA below 3.9 was not 175; it looks like 174 to me. (The significance numbers wise is that a 174 raises Harvard's LSAT median, a 173 is right on the money and thus neither a liability nor a gain in terms of the school's LSAT median). The trend seems to be similar this year as well. You are right, however, that a 3.82 and a 173 is very unlikely at Harvard--the applicant is hugging the LSAT median and below the median GPA. Chicago is a good school but I don't think it is enough to put him over, unless there are other very substantial softs in addition. Stanford might bite, but the GPA is low for a GPA heavy school. So, OP, you are kind of in no man's land--very close to being into the top 3, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were shut out from all of them. Columbia looks good, though.

My advice would be to retake, but only after you have raised your LSAT average on practice tests.

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sarcasmpolice
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby sarcasmpolice » Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:54 pm

Your GPA is stronger than you thing coming from Chicago. You have a decent chance at Harvard.

ilovethelsat
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby ilovethelsat » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:19 am

sarcasmpolice wrote:Your GPA is stronger than you thing coming from Chicago. You have a decent chance at Harvard.


If a "decent chance" means a 10-15% chance of admission, then yes, the OP has a decent chance.

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Nom Sawyer
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby Nom Sawyer » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:27 am

ilovethelsat wrote:
sarcasmpolice wrote:Your GPA is stronger than you thing coming from Chicago. You have a decent chance at Harvard.


If a "decent chance" means a 10-15% chance of admission, then yes, the OP has a decent chance.


This is a troll... please disregard what he is saying

JasonR
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby JasonR » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:28 am

ilovethelsat wrote:Right now, you're not competitive at HYS.


Ignore this ignorant person.

You're competitive at all three schools. Most competitive at Stanford, where lawschoolpredictor.com estimates that your combined numbers put you equal to or above 65% of accepted applicants.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:31 am

Nom Sawyer wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:
sarcasmpolice wrote:Your GPA is stronger than you thing coming from Chicago. You have a decent chance at Harvard.


If a "decent chance" means a 10-15% chance of admission, then yes, the OP has a decent chance.


This is a troll... please disregard what he is saying


+1

10-15% chance? where is he getting these numbers from? and dont just look at LSN charts, it omits a lot of applicants for some reason, just look at the actual applicant page. also, LSN tends to have a higher skew than actual admitted students (biased sample) so irl is usually a tad lower in numbers.

i say OP has a 45-55% chance at HLS, assuming he's applying early next cycle and not this one super late

lol sry the 10-15% chance is still making me chuckle

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DoubleChecks
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:34 am

JasonR wrote:
ilovethelsat wrote:Right now, you're not competitive at HYS.


Ignore this ignorant person.

You're competitive at all three schools. Most competitive at Stanford, where lawschoolpredictor.com estimates that your combined numbers put you equal to or above 65% of accepted applicants.


while i agree that what ilovethelsat is saying is too extreme (and most likely incorrect), i wouldnt look at LSP's take on Stanford and go, oh OP's chances are the best there haha.

SLS is more of a black-box admissions deal, with a strong emphasis on GPA (which OP is low on)...they tend to look at softs more as well, so w/o knowing OP's softs, i wouldnt put much stock into SLS.

HLS, out of HYS, obeys numbers the most. OP is definitely competitive, but i mean, he isnt in a position i would like. as someone else stated, a bit like no man's land in certainty. if he gets a 2nd score that is higher, it'd certainly help (though im not saying it'd help astronomically). but w/ a 175-176 PT avg...i dont see a lot of improvement.

as others have said, you sort of scored in your range, as far as test days go.

trutherd
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby trutherd » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:38 am

I stumbled upon the LSAT Repeater Data tonight and it's not promising for a 173... 7 people retook with your score, 1 improved, 1 stayed the same, and 5 dropped (3 dropped below 170). You still need to know your own confidence level but the straight odds aren't in your favor.

skip james
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby skip james » Thu Feb 11, 2010 4:03 am

for what it's worth, i'm sure glad i did.

pdiddy89
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby pdiddy89 » Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:42 am

update:
i think i am strong to very strong in the soft's department. i am very actively involved in hs debate and have had national success as a coach.
i am applying next cycle, and will apply early. so the question is whether or not to consider retaking in june.

more thoughts?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:01 pm

pdiddy89 wrote:update:
i think i am strong to very strong in the soft's department. i am very actively involved in hs debate and have had national success as a coach.
i am applying next cycle, and will apply early. so the question is whether or not to consider retaking in june.

more thoughts?


in light of this info, i would start practicing now to get your PT avg higher and retake in june (plenty of time), hopefully getting a 176 or above (tho anything 173+ would help to some degree)

w/ your softs and early app next cycle, a higher LSAT would be nearly a guaranteed admission at at least 1 HYS, with you being competitive at all 3

w/ your current LSAT, you'd be competitive at HYS, but i wouldnt be surprised if you were out at all 3 too

w/ a lower LSAT like a 170, id imagine it'd hurt you at HYS some, but overall, i say benefits outweigh the risks and you have plenty of time to prepare -- so do it haha

7ED
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Re: retake with a 173?

Postby 7ED » Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:48 pm

Retake.

I bombed february. Averaged 178 on my PTs, and unless a miracle happens ill be scoring in the 173 area when I get my mark back. Im expecting a 3.82 or so GPA when I send in my grades, and I definitely have no intention of throwing away all my hard work because of the LSAT.




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