How often do you use limited options of LGs?

gmreplay
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How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby gmreplay » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:09 pm

One thing I noticed is that I almost never use limited options, even when I later find out that they would have been really helpful. It's just not something I've remembered to include in my regimen. How often do you use limited options, and do you find them most useful on any particular type of game? What's the tip off for when they pay off?

dynomite
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby dynomite » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:22 pm

You're right (obviously) that this is a crucial deduction, but often hard to see the first time through. I haven't really noticed any type of game where it's more likely, but that doesn't mean there aren't clues.

A few things I look for:
- any rules that include "or"
- blocks of entities
- sequencing chains where an entity at the front or back has a lot of entities ahead of or behind it, such that it's very restricted

If I see one of these, I try it out in the diagram and see if further deductions fall into place. For example, "F must go first or last -- make two versions of the diagram and see if that forces anything else to happen.

Or (I'm making this up as I go along btw) you've got 2 groups of 3 to arrange A, B, C, D, E, F:

Group 1 _ _ _
Group 2 _ _ _

Now, say that you know 1) that [AB] are always together, 2) that C and D are never together (C<-|->D). Well, put it in the diagram and see what happens.

Group 1 A B c/d
Group 2 d/c _ _

or

Group 1 d/c _ _
Group 2 A B d/c

Since the last two empty spaces are always in the same group, I know that A B and one of D/C is one group, and E F and the other of D/C is the other.

Group 1 A B c/d
Group 2 E F d/c

or

Group 1 E F c/d
Group 2 A B d/c
Last edited by dynomite on Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dreamscometrue
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby dreamscometrue » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:27 pm

Thanks for the diagram! What I always seem to get tripped up on is the rule that says A>B or B>C but they can not occur at the same time (so A>B>C is never possible). It takes me a while to figure out how to diagram that rule. Oh well.

ze2151
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby ze2151 » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:28 pm

you CAN use them for literally every strict sequencing or grouping game. it pays to use them maybe 67% of the time. limited ops are great. go into every sequence/grouping game assuming they're there and you can get them.

you can also find them for match games (seq. and grouping games are basically match games). but i found them to be most helpful for the two i mentioned.

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sarlis
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby sarlis » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:28 pm

When I was prepping for the LSAT, limited options was perhaps the most crucial part of logic games for me, when I was able to use limited options. Limited options save you much time in, becuase you don't have to draw or redraw the same thing over and over, you have you master sketch and limited options at the beginning of the game, and you can just reference them throughout.

dynomite
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby dynomite » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:36 pm

ze2151 wrote:you CAN use them for literally every strict sequencing or grouping game. it pays to use them maybe 67% of the time. limited ops are great. go into every sequence/grouping game assuming they're there and you can get them.

you can also find them for match games (seq. and grouping games are basically match games). but i found them to be most helpful for the two i mentioned.


2/3? Really? That's a bit more than I've seen.

Limited options are obviously one of the most powerful deductions you can make in a logic game, but forcing limited options when the limit is above 4 or 5 can really hurt you -- you can get lost in doing out these options and waste 2-3 minutes.

At some point, there's a tradeoff between the value of doing out every option and just being clear on the rules.

dynomite
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby dynomite » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:46 pm

dreamscometrue wrote:Thanks for the diagram! What I always seem to get tripped up on is the rule that says A>B or B>C but they can not occur at the same time (so A>B>C is never possible). It takes me a while to figure out how to diagram that rule. Oh well.


Yeah, that can be a tough one. The way I've done that one out is to draw out the two options.

Option 1:

A > B. This means, therefore, that C > B, so this can be rewritten as: A+C > B. I write that right above a diagram and put the other rules in. Say, F has to be 3.

A+C > B
Order: _ _ F _ _ _

Option 2:

B > C. This means, therefore, that B > A, so this can be rewritten as: B > C+A. Again, above another diagram:

B > C+A
Order: _ _ F _ _ _

Now you start to see the value of the options, because in Option 1 B cannot be earlier than 4th, whereas in Option 2 at least 1 of C and A are 4th or later.

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klussy
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby klussy » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:01 pm

dynomite wrote:
dreamscometrue wrote:Thanks for the diagram! What I always seem to get tripped up on is the rule that says A>B or B>C but they can not occur at the same time (so A>B>C is never possible). It takes me a while to figure out how to diagram that rule. Oh well.


Yeah, that can be a tough one. The way I've done that one out is to draw out the two options.

Option 1:

A > B. This means, therefore, that C > B, so this can be rewritten as: A+C > B. I write that right above a diagram and put the other rules in. Say, F has to be 3.

A+C > B
Order: _ _ F _ _ _

Option 2:

B > C. This means, therefore, that B > A, so this can be rewritten as: B > C+A. Again, above another diagram:

B > C+A
Order: _ _ F _ _ _

Now you start to see the value of the options, because in Option 1 B cannot be earlier than 4th, whereas in Option 2 at least 1 of C and A are 4th or later.


I've had the same problem. While I usually get -0, this was one rule type that always leaves me scrambling. But this makes it very clear- thanks 8)

gmreplay
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby gmreplay » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:11 pm

To be honest I've never really learned what all the different types of logic games are. The powerscore bible just got too granular for me. Now my greatest fear is that (despite doing pretty well overall on the logic games at this point) that I've missed something and they will throw one at me that I just totally don't grasp. I'm taking the test Saturday, and this is probably my biggest fear.

Is there any sort of concise drill I can do to determine whether I understand them all? I was thinking about finding one of the lists of the games categorized on here and just doing two or three from each group, but with my very limited remaining time I'm not sure if this is worth it.

dynomite
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby dynomite » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:20 pm

gmreplay wrote:Is there any sort of concise drill I can do to determine whether I understand them all? I was thinking about finding one of the lists of the games categorized on here and just doing two or three from each group, but with my very limited remaining time I'm not sure if this is worth it.


Eh. If you had more time that'd be one thing, but less than 48 hours out it's just not worth it.

You've done your studying. Pay attention to the rules of the game and what you're being asked to do with the elements. Arrange them into a group? See who goes in which order? Every single game they throw at you -- every single game -- will have rules, entities and limits.

No matter what happens, stay calm and focused on the game.

gmreplay
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Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby gmreplay » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:31 pm

I don't know about being done studying, but I appreciate the vote of confidence. I'm still trying to get my technique down on reading. That's the crucial thing in the next day- it has been known to massacre my scores before. I'm generally -2 to -3 on the LR, so reading and LG are the only unknown quantities. Even if I get a beast of a reading passage I can probably fumble my way through it. The thing that terrifies me is that if they throw a logic game that I have only seen once eight months ago, I think I'm going to have to cancel the score. I think 8 months of LSAT studying is enough for any human being.

dreamscometrue
Posts: 47
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2009 10:00 pm

Re: How often do you use limited options of LGs?

Postby dreamscometrue » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:33 pm

dynomite wrote:
dreamscometrue wrote:Thanks for the diagram! What I always seem to get tripped up on is the rule that says A>B or B>C but they can not occur at the same time (so A>B>C is never possible). It takes me a while to figure out how to diagram that rule. Oh well.


Yeah, that can be a tough one. The way I've done that one out is to draw out the two options.

Option 1:

A > B. This means, therefore, that C > B, so this can be rewritten as: A+C > B. I write that right above a diagram and put the other rules in. Say, F has to be 3.

A+C > B
Order: _ _ F _ _ _

Option 2:

B > C. This means, therefore, that B > A, so this can be rewritten as: B > C+A. Again, above another diagram:

B > C+A
Order: _ _ F _ _ _

Now you start to see the value of the options, because in Option 1 B cannot be earlier than 4th, whereas in Option 2 at least 1 of C and A are 4th or later.


Wow this is great. Thanks so much for taking the time to do this! I will definitely have to try it out with one of the recent games. Hopefully it'll stick before Saturday hehe :) Thanks again!




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