How Many People Get Perfect 180?

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Bildungsroman
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:07 pm

Jeffort wrote:
Dave Hall wrote:
Jeffort wrote:We'll see if Dave's score claims are real. They might be, but I'm skeptical. All it takes to prove true is a scan and post of the one page LSAC Candidate IRR from the last LSAT he took. It will have his complete official testing/score history in the table on the left side of the page. If he does that and it checks out I will have great respect for the man, if he doesn't I will stick with my current doubts and suspicions.


Here (LinkRemoved).

Jeffort wrote:As for Velocity being a TPR spin-off, just call the TPR main SoCal toll free# and ask to enroll in one of his classes and they will take your payment info and sign you up.

Velocity is not a spin-off of TPR, and is related to TPR only by virtue of the fact that I work for both companies. If you're interested in a bit more history on this subject, please see the last couple of paragraphs here (LinkRemoved).

Now, please stop saying misleading things about me. I've no idea who you are or why you're so cynical, but it would be decent of you to knock it off.


Dave,

Thank you for responding to my question. I was hoping for an official LSAC IRR report from the last administration you took instead of a cropped screen shot. I'd still like to see your most recent IRR report. It's just one page you can paste into MS paint, scrub out the detailed personal information and then post in minutes to disclose your complete official LSAT record.

Please do not chastise me again like you did, I'm not your child.

I have not posted anything misleading about you, TPR, or Velocity in the four posts in which I've mentioned you and your company.

I asked because it appears you are using the "Three 180s and I'm taking your LSAT questions" thread you started to advertise/generate business in a way to avoid paying the advertising fees the rest of the prep companies pay for online advertisements.

You and Velocity are affiliated with TPR. If somebody calls TPR and asks about enrolling in a Velocity class they can do it over the phone with a CC and TPR will process the payment and enrollment.

I'm not cynical, just speaking the truth as I know it to be.

I don't blame you for branching off and re-branding with an online thing since TPR is again on the verge of collapse.
You seem to know the LSAT rather well, so good luck with your biz --ImageRemoved--

I'm going to go ahead and QFP since this post is so pricelessly petulant.

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bgdddymtty
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby bgdddymtty » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:27 pm

Here's my $.02 worth on Dave Hall and Scoregate:
1. He's clearly posting here as a way of getting free advertising for his business. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but let's not kid ourselves.
2. His advice seems to be pretty good. I don't agree with all of it, but it's pretty solid.
3. However, he used his purported scores to establish the credibility of his advice. To that end, asking for proof of those scores seems to be an entirely reasonable request.
4. The "proof" that Mr. Hall has provided to this point does not prove that anyone received those scores, much less that he did.
5. Assuming arguendo that Mr. Hall did actually receive the scores reflected on the screen shot, he has still been dishonest about his LSAT performance. Remember that his story, parroted on this very page, was that he got a 179 the first time he took the test, followed by three 180's. I'm not sure if he ever said that those four scores were consecutive, but he certainly implied it. He probably would have wowed just as many people had he said he took the test six times, scoring three 180's, a 179, and two 177's, but he didn't. I find that troubling, and I doubt I'm alone here.

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Geetar Man
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Geetar Man » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:04 pm

bgdddymtty wrote:Here's my $.02 worth on Dave Hall and Scoregate:
1. He's clearly posting here as a way of getting free advertising for his business. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but let's not kid ourselves.
2. His advice seems to be pretty good. I don't agree with all of it, but it's pretty solid.
3. However, he used his purported scores to establish the credibility of his advice. To that end, asking for proof of those scores seems to be an entirely reasonable request.
4. The "proof" that Mr. Hall has provided to this point does not prove that anyone received those scores, much less that he did.
5. Assuming arguendo that Mr. Hall did actually receive the scores reflected on the screen shot, he has still been dishonest about his LSAT performance. Remember that his story, parroted on this very page, was that he got a 179 the first time he took the test, followed by three 180's. I'm not sure if he ever said that those four scores were consecutive, but he certainly implied it. He probably would have wowed just as many people had he said he took the test six times, scoring three 180's, a 179, and two 177's, but he didn't. I find that troubling, and I doubt I'm alone here.


Regarding your 5th point, where exactly did Mr. Hall say that he got a 179 the first time he took the test, followed by three 180s? (I cant find it on this page/thread, as you said it was.) The only scores I've seen parroted are the 3 180s in his thread, and for good reason. The implicit point behind his thread is to attract potential customers and surely, gain their confidence that his course is a good one, based on the positive feedback/great advice given to him.

If you're concerned about how Mr. Hall is using TLS to his advantage, then that's one thing. But again, as far as the OP goes, proving Dave earned the scores he claimed is completely irrelevant

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby bgdddymtty » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:34 pm

Geetar Man wrote:Regarding your 5th point, where exactly did Mr. Hall say that he got a 179 the first time he took the test, followed by three 180s? (I cant find it on this page/thread, as you said it was.)

First page of this thread (I was wrong when I said it was on this page):
bernaldiaz wrote:Dave Hall has taken it four times. First time he fucked up and got a 179, and he has received 3 consecutive 180's since them. The LSAC will no longer let him sit for the test.
This is what bernaldiaz inferred based on Dave's claims in the "Taking Your Questions" thread. I inferred the same thing, because it is the only reasonable reading of those claims.

Geetar Man wrote:The implicit point behind his thread is to attract potential customers and surely, gain their confidence that his course is a good one, based on the positive feedback/great advice given to him.
We completely agree here, except that you omitted a critical point. The basis for people listening to him in the first place was his LSAT scores. Inasmuch as he was not truthful about those scores, the confidence placed in him was based on fraud. That doesn't make his advice bad; it makes him less trustworthy.

Geetar Man wrote:If you're concerned about how Mr. Hall is using TLS to his advantage, then that's one thing.
As I said in my post, I'm not. Good on him for effectively marketing his business.

Geetar Man wrote:But again, as far as the OP goes, proving Dave earned the scores he claimed is completely irrelevant
I disagree, for the reasons stated above.

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Geetar Man
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Geetar Man » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:45 pm

I really don't feel like arguing about it since it truly is irrelevant to how many people get a perfect 180. But honestly, if Dave lied/gave false information, then yes, he does lose some credibility.

What if what bernaldiaz's inference was wrong? I cant recall reading that Dave said he got a 179, followed by 3 180s. Can you find that explicit/implicit post?

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby bruss » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:20 pm

Geetar Man wrote:I really don't feel like arguing about it since it truly is irrelevant to how many people get a perfect 180. But honestly, if Dave lied/gave false information, then yes, he does lose some credibility.

What if what bernaldiaz's inference was wrong? I cant recall reading that Dave said he got a 179, followed by 3 180s. Can you find that explicit/implicit post?


bgdddymtty wrote:Here's my $.02 worth on Dave Hall and Scoregate:
5. Assuming arguendo that Mr. Hall did actually receive the scores reflected on the screen shot, he has still been dishonest about his LSAT performance. Remember that his story, parroted on this very page, was that he got a 179 the first time he took the test, followed by three 180's. I'm not sure if he ever said that those four scores were consecutive, but he certainly implied it. He probably would have wowed just as many people had he said he took the test six times, scoring three 180's, a 179, and two 177's, but he didn't. I find that troubling, and I doubt I'm alone here.


Dave Hall wrote:

1. Indulge me while I tell you a story that will illustrate the thing I'd be most concerned about if I were you:

When I took the LSAT for the first time (in June 2005), I thought that I would probably be headed to law school. [Brief and probably uninteresting background in 3... 2... 1... I was working part time, my wife was pregnant, and I knew that I could score 175+. I didn't really care what I got on the test, because I figured that I'd get my 176 or 177 and get a full ride to a local 2nd-tier school, graduate at the top of my class, and get a job to gain some experience before heading back to teach law at my alma mater].

Here's how that first test went: Each LR section took me less than 25 minutes to complete. I literally went outside and smoked a cigarette (smoking is bad for you, and also SO HARD to quit. Don't do it, kids) during one section - I told the proctor I was going to the restroom. The RC took me a bit longer, but less than 28 minutes. The Games were my area of chief concern, and they took me almost all the allotted time (I was still working when the proctor gave the 5-minute warning). When I got my score, I was pleased with 179 (although also a little bummed; I missed an EXCEPT question in the RC because I took it down to two and then - so, so stupid, Dave! - bubbled the answer that WAS THERE in the passage).

Then I didn't go to law school, and spent another year teaching LSAT prep. When I sat my second test, it should've been easier, right? I mean, I should've been a year smarter and more experienced and just killed every section in even less time than the year before, right? It wasn't like I'd spent the intervening time doing speedballs and fighting UFC - I'd been doing LSAT the whole time.

Yet, in round two, every section took me until past the 5-minute warning. I was slower in every subject (except Games, where I was about the same speed).

Why?

Because the first time, I played my game. I did the things that I knew how to do, and I didn't worry about anything else but that.

But the second time?

I couldn't miss any questions, man! Anything less than 180 would've been a failure, and that pressure changed the whole test for me. Instead of just answering the questions like I knew how to do, I was suddenly reading and re-reading everything, making sure I wasn't making any careless errors. I knew I wasn't likely to make more than one or two over the test, but even one or two would ruin my shot at perfection.

Oh, it was horrible. It was one of the most stressful afternoons of my life, and I only got to smoke at the break, too (smoking is bad for you, and also SO HARD to quit. Don't do it, kids).

And the only thing that had changed was in my head. Instead of just doing one thing - answering LSAT questions - I was trying to do two things - answer LSAT questions and think about the ever-present possibility of careless error, including but not limited to: mis-bubbling, mis-circling in my test booklet before I bubbled, mentally inserting the word "not" where it was not written, ignoring the word "not" where it was written, picking a weaken response to a strengthen question, picking a... but you get the picture.

All of that to say this: try not to worry about your score per se, and focus instead on doing well those things that you know how to do well. The rest will happen very naturally on its own.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0#p5162582

you dont need a 180 to figure out Dave was trying to make people believe he got a 179 THEN a 180...


Edit: he claims that he did the 179 in 05 and it has since fallen off his record

Dave Hall wrote:
I took about 20 tests, in total, before taking the LSAT the first time (179, which was so long ago - June 2005 - that it's now fallen off my record). and I only took 5 of those as timed practice exams. The rest I split up into segments to learn from.

It wasn't about the quantity nearly so much as the quality (and depth) of my work. For those 20 tests, I'd estimate that I likely spent as much time working and re-working them as someone would spend taking 60 timed tests.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5#p4708582

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bgdddymtty
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby bgdddymtty » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:38 pm

There's also this:
Dave Hall wrote:My highest score is 180. I got 180 at three different administrations.
My very first score was not 180. On my first test, I scored 179.

Having found that, though, I feel I may have been a bit harsh on Mr. Hall. While he may not have actively combated the inference that he only took the LSAT four times, I'm not sure he actively deceived people either. My apologies to Dave.

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20130312
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby 20130312 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:46 pm

Would people really not trust the guy with three 180's if he also has a couple of 179's? Seriously? Even Robin Singh struck out a couple times.

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Mr.Binks
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Mr.Binks » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:51 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:Would people really not trust the guy with three 180's if he also has a couple of 179's? Seriously? Even Robin Singh struck out a couple times.

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby thederangedwang » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:54 pm

.
Last edited by thederangedwang on Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Geetar Man
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Geetar Man » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:56 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:Would people really not trust the guy with three 180's if he also has a couple of 179's? Seriously? Even Robin Singh struck out a couple times.

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby bruss » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:00 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:Would people really not trust the guy with three 180's if he also has a couple of 179's? Seriously? Even Robin Singh struck out a couple times.

i think the problem that some have is that he allowed people to believe that he got 3 180's in a row and never combated the idea. my problem is that he stated that he got a 179 then a 180 when in actuality he got a 179, 177 then a 180. For me, and probably others this is a problem. Does he give good advice? yes. Can I trust him? no. His hyperbole is great for selling things but not for selling himself as a trustworthy person. He has constantly told the story of his getting a 179 then going back the next year to get a 180

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby 20130312 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:16 pm

bruss wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Would people really not trust the guy with three 180's if he also has a couple of 179's? Seriously? Even Robin Singh struck out a couple times.

i think the problem that some have is that he allowed people to believe that he got 3 180's in a row and never combated the idea. my problem is that he stated that he got a 179 then a 180 when in actuality he got a 179, 177 then a 180. For me, and probably others this is a problem. Does he give good advice? yes. Can I trust him? no. His hyperbole is great for selling things but not for selling himself as a trustworthy person. He has constantly told the story of his getting a 179 then going back the next year to get a 180


It's not his fault you're an idiot. You can clearly see in his story that he got the 179, then stressed out on the 2nd one because he wanted a 180.

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Dave Hall » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:03 pm

.

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby 20130312 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:06 pm

Dave Hall wrote:
bruss wrote: my problem is that he stated that he got a 179 then a 180 when in actuality he got a 179, 177 then a 180.

OK. This one I really just don't get.

Do you think that I faked the order of the scores on the screenshot?

Because it shows that I scored 180 in 2006, followed by 177 in 2007. It just doesn't show the 179 from 2005 that's now fallen off my record.


So you admit that you lied about getting three consecutive 180's!

Kidding, of course. But I'm sure that will come up next.

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Dave Hall » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:10 pm

.

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Geetar Man
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Geetar Man » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:33 pm

Dave Hall wrote:I don't really know whom to quote for this post, so I'll just add it like this:

Obviously, it’s possible that I’m lying about everything I’ve ever said. There’s just no way for me to demonstrate that I’m not.

But maybe we can start by considering some demonstrable facts:

1. I’ve posted here using only my real name, and a photograph of myself.

2. I’ve posted advice that at least some people have found helpful.

3. The company I founded has shown a commitment to social good in the following ways:

We offer substantive Need-Based Aid to students who need it (see? It’s right in the title of the aid!). I believe that the 40% discount we offer to students who qualify for LSAC fee waivers is unprecedented (I’m sure you’ll correct me (probably with some sarcasm) if I’m wrong about that part).
We offer meaningful Payment Plans to anyone who wants one. Small, workable chunks that provide prep all along the way so that you can access quality LSAT help even if you’re not wealthy.
We’ve made hours of preparatory videos available for free to anyone who wants them.

Here’s why I think those indisputable facts matter:

1. Maybe this means I’m honest and transparent.

2. Maybe this means I really know what I’m talking about.

3. Maybe this means I really care about making the world a better place to be, in addition to building an LSAT PREP EMPIRE!!!! (muahahahahahaha).

Of course, it’s possible that all of this is a ruse. I might be lying to you right now.

Then again, consider this explanation for all known facts: Maybe I’m telling the truth.

Maybe I really did score 179 in June 2005, followed by 180 in June 2006, then 177 in September 2007, and 180 in June 2008, then a (really disappointing) 177 in June 2009, followed by 180 in September 2009 (to wash the taste of that most recent 177 out of my mouth).

Maybe I posted a real screenshot of my scores and cropped it so that you can’t see my LSAC account number (I’m transparent, but I’m not stupid).

Maybe the 179 doesn’t appear because it is now expired, and LSAC drops expired scores from your record.

Maybe I post on this forum for the following two reasons (in order of their importance to me):

1. To begin to build a reputation as someone who knows the LSAT intimately and who can share that knowledge in actionable ways (I think marketing types would call what I’m doing “branding,” but again, I’m sure you’ll correct me (probably with some sarcasm) if I’m wrong about that part).

2. To give free test prep to people who may not otherwise afford such prep. And it’s totally cool with me if some people who can afford such prep get it, too.

Clearly, all of the foregoing may be false. There just isn’t any way for me to prove it isn’t.

Then again, it might be true, and I haven’t given you any reason to doubt me, and I haven’t been rude to you, so...

If you don’t want my advice, maybe you could just ignore it from now on, instead of hijacking perfectly good threads with this kind of nonsense.

This post will be the last response I’ll make on this topic.

If you want to talk about the LSAT, though, you know where to find me.

d

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby LSChick22 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:41 pm

bruss wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Would people really not trust the guy with three 180's if he also has a couple of 179's? Seriously? Even Robin Singh struck out a couple times.

i think the problem that some have is that he allowed people to believe that he got 3 180's in a row and never combated the idea. my problem is that he stated that he got a 179 then a 180 when in actuality he got a 179, 177 then a 180. For me, and probably others this is a problem. Does he give good advice? yes. Can I trust him? no. His hyperbole is great for selling things but not for selling himself as a trustworthy person. He has constantly told the story of his getting a 179 then going back the next year to get a 180
This is exactly the problem I have. A deceived TLSer blogged back in August that Dave Hall scored three straight 180s. Dave never corrected that falsehood, even though he was "interviewed" in the blog.

--LinkRemoved--

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby moneybagsphd » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:48 pm

LSChick22 wrote:This is exactly the problem I have. A deceived TLSer blogged back in August that Dave Hall scored three straight 180s. Dave never corrected that falsehood, even though he was "interviewed" in the blog.

--LinkRemoved--

I, for one, don't care. This is a stupid debate. Stop it.

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suspicious android
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby suspicious android » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:50 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:I, for one, don't care. This is a stupid debate. Stop it.


Oh, you don't care so everyone should shut up about it? I think you meant to add "/thread" to that.

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LSChick22
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby LSChick22 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:56 pm

moneybagsphd wrote:
LSChick22 wrote:This is exactly the problem I have. A deceived TLSer blogged back in August that Dave Hall scored three straight 180s. Dave never corrected that falsehood, even though he was "interviewed" in the blog.

--LinkRemoved--

I, for one, don't care. This is a stupid debate. Stop it.

I don't care if you don't care. My post was directed to everyone who does.

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Geetar Man
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Geetar Man » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:58 pm

LSChick22 wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:
LSChick22 wrote:This is exactly the problem I have. A deceived TLSer blogged back in August that Dave Hall scored three straight 180s. Dave never corrected that falsehood, even though he was "interviewed" in the blog.

--LinkRemoved--

I, for one, don't care. This is a stupid debate. Stop it.

I don't care if you don't care. My post was directed to everyone who does.



I don't care either. Dave is the legit in my book.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Bildungsroman » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:06 pm

LSChick22 wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:
LSChick22 wrote:This is exactly the problem I have. A deceived TLSer blogged back in August that Dave Hall scored three straight 180s. Dave never corrected that falsehood, even though he was "interviewed" in the blog.

--LinkRemoved--

I, for one, don't care. This is a stupid debate. Stop it.

I don't care if you don't care. My post was directed to everyone who does.

We're all dumber for having listened to your point.

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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby LSChick22 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:13 pm

Geetar Man wrote:
LSChick22 wrote:
moneybagsphd wrote:
LSChick22 wrote:This is exactly the problem I have. A deceived TLSer blogged back in August that Dave Hall scored three straight 180s. Dave never corrected that falsehood, even though he was "interviewed" in the blog.

--LinkRemoved--

I, for one, don't care. This is a stupid debate. Stop it.

I don't care if you don't care. My post was directed to everyone who does.



I don't care either. Dave is the legit in my book.

Well, I guess your book sucks then. Like I said in the other thread, I'll be posting information soon that will permanently end this debate. And trust me, it will not be a happy ending for Mr. Hall.

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Geetar Man
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Re: How Many People Get Perfect 180?

Postby Geetar Man » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:21 pm

You havent even read my book. Fallacious on your part.

Whatever you have to bring against him, I still won't give a flying fuck. (unless he did some highly illegal (mainly violent) shit, then you can shove it up your ass, LSchick22, with a measly 4 fucking posts solely in this thread.)

Dave's given a ton of helpful advice and even if he didn't score 180 or what the fuck ever, he still gives advice that some people find useful. (I'd say most, since that's how I feel. But I think you'll probably argue against that too.)

If you think I'm being harsh by telling you to shove it, I DON'T CARE!

I wish I was a mod so I could have locked this bitch up a long time ago. And by bitch, I mainly mean thread.




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