How Many People Get Perfect 180? Forum

[Jeffort]

Lol, shit just got real in this thread. I knew Dave Hall used to teach for TPR, but I didn't know that Velocity is a TPR spin-off or that TPR often lies about instructor scores. Doesn't TPR already help defray TLS's operating costs, though? If Velocity is a TPR spin-off, Dave Hall should just say so and he'll probably have free rein to promote the company as much as he wants anyway.

We'll see if Dave's score claims are real. They might be, but I'm skeptical. All it takes to prove true is a scan and post of the one page LSAC Candidate IRR from the last LSAT he took. It will have his complete official testing/score history in the table on the left side of the page. If he does that and it checks out I will have great respect for the man, if he doesn't I will stick with my current doubts and suspicions.

As for Velocity being a TPR spin-off, just call the TPR main SoCal toll free# and ask to enroll in one of his classes and they will take your payment info and sign you up.

I have no idea about the TPR relationship with TLS though. Not going to speculate about that since I don't want to be banned, but I doubt keeping the TLS server operating requires funding from them. The hosting with adequate bandwidth and server power to handle the traffic shouldn't cost more than ~$200 per month since it's mainly just serving text.

[Elston Gunn]

In 2007, I emailed the Law School Admission Commitee and asked them how many people got a perfect score that year and the year before. They told me that about that it was about 70 both years.

Wow that is surpriing, that seems high. The interesting questin is how many people can get a 180 consistantly. Probably the majority of that 70 are people who average like a 177-178 and get a 180 occasionally. I wonder how many people out there can nail down a 180 every time.

I really don't think it's possible. LSAC itself admits that an LSAT score is really a +/- 3 probability window. I'd venture that every 180 is from someone who averages high 170s and happened to get lucky on that particular test.

o

Hopefully I won't come off sounding like a douche, but since it seems relevant: over the last 15 timed tests I took, I think I got 8-9 180s, 5-6 179s and the rest were 178s. In general my score was more dependent on the scale than anything else--if it was -3 for a 180, I got a 180 every time. If it was -1, I never got one. If it was -2 it was up in the air. Since I highly doubt I'm the best LSAT taker there is, I have no doubt there are people who get 180s 9/10 times they take the test. Maybe Dave Hall isn't telling the truth, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he was. He does seem really helpful anyway.

[Dave Hall]

.

[bernaldiaz]

We'll see if Dave's score claims are real. They might be, but I'm skeptical. All it takes to prove true is a scan and post of the one page LSAC Candidate IRR from the last LSAT he took. It will have his complete official testing/score history in the table on the left side of the page. If he does that and it checks out I will have great respect for the man, if he doesn't I will stick with my current doubts and suspicions.

Here (LinkRemoved).

As for Velocity being a TPR spin-off, just call the TPR main SoCal toll free# and ask to enroll in one of his classes and they will take your payment info and sign you up.

Velocity is not a spin-off of TPR, and is related to TPR only by virtue of the fact that I work for both companies. If you're interested in a bit more history on this subject, please see the last couple of paragraphs here (LinkRemoved).

Now, please stop saying misleading things about me. I've no idea who you are or why you're so cynical, but it would be decent of you to knock it off.

Boss.

[mattviphky]

It's a TPR spin-off BTW.

Wha?? Oh, man, I didn't believe it was true until I went to the website. I haven't felt like this since I found out that Chipotle was owned by McDonald's.

lmao

A big difference is that McDs is not facing a real threat that the stock exchanges will delist their shares from trading plus the imminent threat of going bk again.

I've been biting my lip about this info on the study boards for a while since I didn't want to distract December test takers from preparing to kick arse 'Kung Fu style' and give them something more to stress about before the test, but now that December LSAT prep time is finished I couldn't stay silent any longer! Dave is free to comment and talk about this to explain, discuss or dispute things if he wants since it's now the wait several weeks for scores to be released period. I'd be happy to hear what he has to say, especially since he has been using his thread here to basically advertise and promote sales of his products for free to avoid the advertising charges all other companies have to pay.

Also, McD's still has a pretty good value/~$1 items menu. Dave is charging $250 for 10 tests with explanations. That's pretty expensive, especially given all the other stuff available online and in inexpensive self study books, so maybe the Chipotle analogy works somewhat since a standard burrito from there costs ~$8 while you can get basically the same thing at Del Taco or a quality local family run Mexican food place for less than half the price. That's just my .02

That's a little disingenuous, seeing as how Dave has a thread that is dedicated to helping student's for free. Sure he solicits his services, but I think he does enough good to earn his keep.

[PDaddy]

Are you making a distinction between a 180 with zero questions missed and one with 1-2 questions missed? There's no information about that.

It's irrelevant. A 180 is a 180. The test makers have accounted for the margin of error through variances in difficulty. A test on which a person can miss 1-2 questions and score a 180 is a more difficult test.

Although the LSAT is a curved test, it is not purely so. There is a predetermined scale for each exam, which is then adjusted according to the score distributions. I wonder what would happen if 100,000 people took the test and no one missed more than 5 questions.

[JamMasterJ]

Dave Hall has taken it four times. First time he fucked up and got a 179, and he has received 3 consecutive 180's since them. The LSAC will no longer let him sit for the test.

I'm suspicious of his score claims and would like him to produce and publish his official LSAC score report to prove it.

TPR as a company and TPR instructors have for many years been notorious in the LSAT prep biz for lying about instructors officially achieved scores.
I've been teaching and tutoring LSAT in SoCal for over 10 years and am very familiar with the names of most of the big heavy hitters teaching in the area. I'd never heard his name before he recently started his thread here to promote Velocity. It's a TPR spin-off BTW. TPR is again on the verge of bankruptcy and complete financial collapse.

--LinkRemoved--
http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ ... t_REVU.pdf

based on the advice he gives in that thread, I'd say it's moderately safe to assume that Dave is mentally capable of getting near-perfect scores. Not saying definitively that this is the case, but he probably isn't lying IMO

[Jeffort]

We'll see if Dave's score claims are real. They might be, but I'm skeptical. All it takes to prove true is a scan and post of the one page LSAC Candidate IRR from the last LSAT he took. It will have his complete official testing/score history in the table on the left side of the page. If he does that and it checks out I will have great respect for the man, if he doesn't I will stick with my current doubts and suspicions.

Here (LinkRemoved).

As for Velocity being a TPR spin-off, just call the TPR main SoCal toll free# and ask to enroll in one of his classes and they will take your payment info and sign you up.

Velocity is not a spin-off of TPR, and is related to TPR only by virtue of the fact that I work for both companies. If you're interested in a bit more history on this subject, please see the last couple of paragraphs here (LinkRemoved).

Now, please stop saying misleading things about me. I've no idea who you are or why you're so cynical, but it would be decent of you to knock it off.

Dave,

Thank you for responding to my question. I was hoping for an official LSAC IRR report from the last administration you took instead of a cropped screen shot. I'd still like to see your most recent IRR report. It's just one page you can paste into MS paint, scrub out the detailed personal information and then post in minutes to disclose your complete official LSAT record.

Please do not chastise me again like you did, I'm not your child.

I have not posted anything misleading about you, TPR, or Velocity in the four posts in which I've mentioned you and your company.

I asked because it appears you are using the "Three 180s and I'm taking your LSAT questions" thread you started to advertise/generate business in a way to avoid paying the advertising fees the rest of the prep companies pay for online advertisements.

You and Velocity are affiliated with TPR. If somebody calls TPR and asks about enrolling in a Velocity class they can do it over the phone with a CC and TPR will process the payment and enrollment.

I'm not cynical, just speaking the truth as I know it to be.

I don't blame you for branching off and re-branding with an online thing since TPR is again on the verge of collapse.
You seem to know the LSAT rather well, so good luck with your biz --ImageRemoved--

[tomwatts]

"Speaking the truth as I know it to be" is pretty good code for "making up bad stuff about people and pretending that it's true without any evidence." TPR doesn't lie about instructor scores. If we did, we'd be subject to a massive lawsuit about it, not from students but from Kaplan (who pretty much combs over all of our ads for anything that they don't like and sues us on the spot if they think we're being misleading; it doesn't happen often, but it's happened a couple of times in a couple of decades). TPR is also not on the verge of collapse. The test prep part of the business has done well lately.

I also teach for TPR. I also scored a 180. I'll produce whatever proof you want, though I'm not immediately seeing how to attach things to posts, so I'm not sure how.

[Soba306]

We'll see if Dave's score claims are real. They might be, but I'm skeptical. All it takes to prove true is a scan and post of the one page LSAC Candidate IRR from the last LSAT he took. It will have his complete official testing/score history in the table on the left side of the page. If he does that and it checks out I will have great respect for the man, if he doesn't I will stick with my current doubts and suspicions.

Here (LinkRemoved).

As for Velocity being a TPR spin-off, just call the TPR main SoCal toll free# and ask to enroll in one of his classes and they will take your payment info and sign you up.

Velocity is not a spin-off of TPR, and is related to TPR only by virtue of the fact that I work for both companies. If you're interested in a bit more history on this subject, please see the last couple of paragraphs here (LinkRemoved).

Now, please stop saying misleading things about me. I've no idea who you are or why you're so cynical, but it would be decent of you to knock it off.

No, not here (LinkRemoved). This document doesn't even have your name on it!

Why can't you just post the IRRs for all the LSATs you've taken?

[Soba306]

"Speaking the truth as I know it to be" is pretty good code for "making up bad stuff about people and pretending that it's true without any evidence." TPR doesn't lie about instructor scores. If we did, we'd be subject to a massive lawsuit about it, not from students but from Kaplan (who pretty much combs over all of our ads for anything that they don't like and sues us on the spot if they think we're being misleading; it doesn't happen often, but it's happened a couple of times in a couple of decades). TPR is also not on the verge of collapse. The test prep part of the business has done well lately.

I also teach for TPR. I also scored a 180. I'll produce whatever proof you want, though I'm not immediately seeing how to attach things to posts, so I'm not sure how.

I'll take you up on that offer. If you're smart enough to score a 180, I'm sure you can figure out how to post a screenshot of your scoresheet.

[bernaldiaz]

We'll see if Dave's score claims are real. They might be, but I'm skeptical. All it takes to prove true is a scan and post of the one page LSAC Candidate IRR from the last LSAT he took. It will have his complete official testing/score history in the table on the left side of the page. If he does that and it checks out I will have great respect for the man, if he doesn't I will stick with my current doubts and suspicions.

Here (LinkRemoved).

As for Velocity being a TPR spin-off, just call the TPR main SoCal toll free# and ask to enroll in one of his classes and they will take your payment info and sign you up.

Velocity is not a spin-off of TPR, and is related to TPR only by virtue of the fact that I work for both companies. If you're interested in a bit more history on this subject, please see the last couple of paragraphs here (LinkRemoved).

Now, please stop saying misleading things about me. I've no idea who you are or why you're so cynical, but it would be decent of you to knock it off.

No, not here (LinkRemoved). This document doesn't even have your name on it!

Why can't you just post the IRRs for all the LSATs you've taken?

Birther controversy Part Two

[tomwatts]

"Speaking the truth as I know it to be" is pretty good code for "making up bad stuff about people and pretending that it's true without any evidence." TPR doesn't lie about instructor scores. If we did, we'd be subject to a massive lawsuit about it, not from students but from Kaplan (who pretty much combs over all of our ads for anything that they don't like and sues us on the spot if they think we're being misleading; it doesn't happen often, but it's happened a couple of times in a couple of decades). TPR is also not on the verge of collapse. The test prep part of the business has done well lately.

I also teach for TPR. I also scored a 180. I'll produce whatever proof you want, though I'm not immediately seeing how to attach things to posts, so I'm not sure how.

I'll take you up on that offer. If you're smart enough to score a 180, I'm sure you can figure out how to post a screenshot of your scoresheet.

That's a screenshot from the IRR, with the SSN blocked out. I'll let the score say "screw you" for me.

[Soba306]

"Speaking the truth as I know it to be" is pretty good code for "making up bad stuff about people and pretending that it's true without any evidence." TPR doesn't lie about instructor scores. If we did, we'd be subject to a massive lawsuit about it, not from students but from Kaplan (who pretty much combs over all of our ads for anything that they don't like and sues us on the spot if they think we're being misleading; it doesn't happen often, but it's happened a couple of times in a couple of decades). TPR is also not on the verge of collapse. The test prep part of the business has done well lately.

I also teach for TPR. I also scored a 180. I'll produce whatever proof you want, though I'm not immediately seeing how to attach things to posts, so I'm not sure how.

I'll take you up on that offer. If you're smart enough to score a 180, I'm sure you can figure out how to post a screenshot of your scoresheet.

That's a screenshot from the IRR, with the SSN blocked out. I'll let the score say "screw you" for me.

Thanks, Tom. You've established an excellent precedent.

Now let's see if Dave Hall follows suit.

[bruss]

It's a TPR spin-off BTW.

Wha?? Oh, man, I didn't believe it was true until I went to the website. I haven't felt like this since I found out that Chipotle was owned by McDonald's.

Damn why'd you have to sat this. Now I can't trust the meat at chipotle

[bernaldiaz]

"Speaking the truth as I know it to be" is pretty good code for "making up bad stuff about people and pretending that it's true without any evidence." TPR doesn't lie about instructor scores. If we did, we'd be subject to a massive lawsuit about it, not from students but from Kaplan (who pretty much combs over all of our ads for anything that they don't like and sues us on the spot if they think we're being misleading; it doesn't happen often, but it's happened a couple of times in a couple of decades). TPR is also not on the verge of collapse. The test prep part of the business has done well lately.

I also teach for TPR. I also scored a 180. I'll produce whatever proof you want, though I'm not immediately seeing how to attach things to posts, so I'm not sure how.

I'll take you up on that offer. If you're smart enough to score a 180, I'm sure you can figure out how to post a screenshot of your scoresheet.

That's a screenshot from the IRR, with the SSN blocked out. I'll let the score say "screw you" for me.

Thanks, Tom. You've established an excellent precedent.

Now let's see if Dave Hall follows suit.

This has to be a Jeffort alt.

[Geetar Man]

Thanks, Tom. You've established an excellent precedent.

Now let's see if Dave Hall follows suit.

I don't really think Dave needs to give proof of anything else. If you guys don't want to believe it, then don't. He's already given a screen shot of his scores and you're still asking for more.

I know I sure believe it and from reading his thread, it's given me enough proof that he knows the test quite well. The only time I would ask for proof with his name, etc... is if I were going to enroll in his class. Otherwise, it just doesn't really seem like it should matter to you guys this much.

There are stats out there, that can suffice in answering the OP's question. Getting into a debate about whether Dave is telling the truth or not is irrelevant to the OP.

/thread

[Jeffort]

This has to be a Jeffort alt.

Incorrect. I do not post with any alt accounts here, they ban you for doing that. Plus, I'm not a coward that would need to hide behind an alt anonymous pseudonym.

I'm Jeffort on all three main LSAT study forums, transparent through and through. If you google my username with LSAT you can find my full legal name (hint- my first name is Jeff), home phone number, current address, previous addresses I've lived at and tons of other stuff about me in approximately 15 minutes if you know how to google/do basic research.

[Soba306]

Thanks, Tom. You've established an excellent precedent.

Now let's see if Dave Hall follows suit.

I don't really think Dave needs to give proof of anything else. If you guys don't want to believe it, then don't. He's already given a screen shot of his scores and you're still asking for more.

I know I sure believe it and from reading his thread, it's given me enough proof that he knows the test quite well. The only time I would ask for proof with his name, etc... is if I were going to enroll in his class. Otherwise, it just doesn't really seem like it should matter to you guys this much.

There are stats out there, that can suffice in answering the OP's question. Getting into a debate about whether Dave is telling the truth or not is irrelevant to the OP.

/thread

As I said before, the screenshot doesn't have his name on it. So I don't see why you're relying on it as evidence.

[Soba306]

This has to be a Jeffort alt.

Wrong.

[Geetar Man]

Thanks, Tom. You've established an excellent precedent.

Now let's see if Dave Hall follows suit.

I don't really think Dave needs to give proof of anything else. If you guys don't want to believe it, then don't. He's already given a screen shot of his scores and you're still asking for more.

I know I sure believe it and from reading his thread, it's given me enough proof that he knows the test quite well. The only time I would ask for proof with his name, etc... is if I were going to enroll in his class. Otherwise, it just doesn't really seem like it should matter to you guys this much.

There are stats out there, that can suffice in answering the OP's question. Getting into a debate about whether Dave is telling the truth or not is irrelevant to the OP.

/thread

As I said before, the screenshot doesn't have his name on it. So I don't see why you're relying on it as evidence.

If I was in fact RELYING on it, it would be because this is a fucking internet FORUM, in which the only evidence I have is the evidence people give. Otherwise, if I wanted to conclusively gain verifiable evidence, I would have to make a trip out to SoCal and physically see him sign in to see his scores.

In all seriousness, I was basically trying to say that you can a) believe it, b) don't believe it, c) partially believe it, or d) I don't give a shit whether you believe it or not.

I choose D.

Like I said, there are relevant statistics out there (albeit, I doubt they have anyone's name on it. Sorry. ) to help the OP find the answer to his question.

OP, I believe its around .002% of test takers that score 180 and .008% that score 179, which is who make up the top .01%, thus scoring roughly in the .99 percentile.

I also found this posted by someone else:
In the 2007-2008 cycle, there were 142,331 test takers. We can conclude that around 140 people got a 179 or 180 during that cycle.

[bernaldiaz]

Thanks, Tom. You've established an excellent precedent.

Now let's see if Dave Hall follows suit.

I don't really think Dave needs to give proof of anything else. If you guys don't want to believe it, then don't. He's already given a screen shot of his scores and you're still asking for more.

I know I sure believe it and from reading his thread, it's given me enough proof that he knows the test quite well. The only time I would ask for proof with his name, etc... is if I were going to enroll in his class. Otherwise, it just doesn't really seem like it should matter to you guys this much.

There are stats out there, that can suffice in answering the OP's question. Getting into a debate about whether Dave is telling the truth or not is irrelevant to the OP.

/thread

As I said before, the screenshot doesn't have his name on it. So I don't see why you're relying on it as evidence.

If I was in fact RELYING on it, it would be because this is a fucking internet FORUM, in which the only evidence I have is the evidence people give. Otherwise, if I wanted to conclusively gain verifiable evidence, I would have to make a trip out to SoCal and physically see him sign in to see his scores.

In all seriousness, I was basically trying to say that you can a) believe it, b) don't believe it, c) partially believe it, d) or I don't give a shit whether you believe it or not.

I choose D.

Like I said, there are relevant statistics out there (albeit, I doubt they have anyone's name on it. Sorry. ) to help the OP find the answer to his question.

OP, I believe its around .002% of test takers that score 180 and .008% that score 179, which is who make up the top .01%, thus scoring roughly in the .99 percentile.

I also found this posted by someone else:
In the 2007-2008 cycle, there were 142,331 test takers. We can conclude that around 140 people got a 179 or 180 during that cycle.

Faulty math if the numbers you gave are correct. 1% is 1 out of 100, .1% is 1 out of 1000, and .01% is 1 out of 10,000. That would mean, assuming .01 percent get 179-180, its like 15 people a year. I'm guessing this is false though, and that I misinterpreted your numbers somewhere?

[Geetar Man]

I don't really think Dave needs to give proof of anything else. If you guys don't want to believe it, then don't. He's already given a screen shot of his scores and you're still asking for more.

I know I sure believe it and from reading his thread, it's given me enough proof that he knows the test quite well. The only time I would ask for proof with his name, etc... is if I were going to enroll in his class. Otherwise, it just doesn't really seem like it should matter to you guys this much.

There are stats out there, that can suffice in answering the OP's question. Getting into a debate about whether Dave is telling the truth or not is irrelevant to the OP.

/thread

As I said before, the screenshot doesn't have his name on it. So I don't see why you're relying on it as evidence.

If I was in fact RELYING on it, it would be because this is a fucking internet FORUM, in which the only evidence I have is the evidence people give. Otherwise, if I wanted to conclusively gain verifiable evidence, I would have to make a trip out to SoCal and physically see him sign in to see his scores.

In all seriousness, I was basically trying to say that you can a) believe it, b) don't believe it, c) partially believe it, d) or I don't give a shit whether you believe it or not.

I choose D.

Like I said, there are relevant statistics out there (albeit, I doubt they have anyone's name on it. Sorry. ) to help the OP find the answer to his question.

OP, I believe its around .002% of test takers that score 180 and .008% that score 179, which is who make up the top .01%, thus scoring roughly in the .99 percentile.

I also found this posted by someone else:
In the 2007-2008 cycle, there were 142,331 test takers. We can conclude that around 140 people got a 179 or 180 during that cycle.

Faulty math if the numbers you gave are correct. 1% is 1 out of 100, .1% is 1 out of 1000, and .01% is 1 out of 10,000. That would mean, assuming .01 percent get 179-180, its like 15 people a year. I'm guessing this is false though, and that I misinterpreted your numbers somewhere?

Maybe the math is faulty (it's late and I'm terrible at math anyway), but what I really mean is that people who score 179-180 are in roughly the top 1 percent of scorers. Now, the people who get perfect 180s are about 2/10ths of that one percent and the people who score 179 are the remaining 8/10ths of the 1 percent. (again, these are rough, but rounded numbers to make the math look pretty)

Look at the bolded though, bc my percentages aren't reflective of the latter statistic of people who scored 179/180, given by another poster.

[suspicious android]

Maybe the math is faulty (it's late and I'm terrible at math anyway), but what I really mean is that people who score 179-180 are in roughly the top 1 percent of scorers. Now, the people who get perfect 180s are about 2/10ths of that one percent and the people who score 179 are the remaining 8/10ths of the 1 percent. (again, these are rough, but rounded numbers to make the math look pretty)

Yeah, it's pretty late, check your math again. 172+ scores are top 1%, not 179+.

LSAC doesn't post percentile charts with the same level of precision like they used to. They used to label a 180 as a 99.98th percentile score, 1 in 5000. But that was from about 10 years ago and I think all the 170 scores have become a little more common. Now they list 180, 179 and 178 all as 99.9th percentile, 1 in 1000. Much more egalitarian age we're living in.

Here's a copy of the old percentile chart:
http://www.powerscore.com/lsat/help/scale.cfm

[Geetar Man]

Maybe the math is faulty (it's late and I'm terrible at math anyway), but what I really mean is that people who score 179-180 are in roughly the top 1 percent of scorers. Now, the people who get perfect 180s are about 2/10ths of that one percent and the people who score 179 are the remaining 8/10ths of the 1 percent. (again, these are rough, but rounded numbers to make the math look pretty)

Yeah, it's pretty late, check your math again. 172+ scores are top 1%, not 179+.

LSAC doesn't post percentile charts with the same level of precision like they used to. They used to label a 180 as a 99.98th percentile score, 1 in 5000. But that was from about 10 years ago and I think all the 170 scores have become a little more common. Now they list 180, 179 and 178 all as 99.9th percentile, 1 in 1000. Much more egalitarian age we're living in.

Here's a copy of the old percentile chart:
http://www.powerscore.com/lsat/help/scale.cfm

Thanks for chiming in. I knew the information was out there! lol