LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:28 pm

vampy wrote:I doubt most people improve very much except for logic games which are very learnable. Most people go up very little after their first two weeks of studying.


Do you think that it is a result of not studying enough, or do you think it is because most people are only able to make marginal improvements in the other sections as result of innate ability.

tomwatts
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby tomwatts » Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:44 am

vampy wrote:I doubt most people improve very much except for logic games which are very learnable. Most people go up very little after their first two weeks of studying.

That's both silly and false.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:12 am

tomwatts wrote:
vampy wrote:I doubt most people improve very much except for logic games which are very learnable. Most people go up very little after their first two weeks of studying.

That's both silly and false.


It probably is true since most people who take the lsat probably study for less than 4 weeks, and even those who take a prep course that's probably the only 6 weeks they spend on it. I bet less than 20% of people study for 3-4 months plus.

am060459
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby am060459 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:16 am

the lsat is learnable.

case in progress, i started with a 134 on my diag and recently took a couple of PT and am scoring around 155ish. this is around 20 points and i dont consider myself done yet.


study smart not hard. good luck.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:19 am

am060459 wrote:the lsat is learnable.

case in progress, i started with a 134 on my diag and recently took a couple of PT and am scoring around 155ish. this is around 20 points and i dont consider myself done yet.


study smart not hard. good luck.


I will be interested in hearing how you do when you take the actual exam, I would love to see someone report a 30 point increase on this board, I think I've only seen one. good luck.

Also out of curiosity what have you been doing to improve your score?

am060459
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby am060459 » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:02 am

jason8821 wrote:
am060459 wrote:the lsat is learnable.

case in progress, i started with a 134 on my diag and recently took a couple of PT and am scoring around 155ish. this is around 20 points and i dont consider myself done yet.


study smart not hard. good luck.


I will be interested in hearing how you do when you take the actual exam, I would love to see someone report a 30 point increase on this board, I think I've only seen one. good luck.

Also out of curiosity what have you been doing to improve your score?


i plan on taking the june lsat. i was registered for december but decided to postone. my target score is 165+ but im willing to settle for 1 to 2 points lower.

well i started off with a 134 so i was doing bad everywhere, obviously. as of right now my break down, on average, is -3 for LG, -15 (collectively) for LR and -12 for RC.

i took a TM course and that help me with LG and LR (mostly LG but nothing for RC). i've done the LRB and some of LG and RC bible. as of right now im tackling the sections individually on a question by question (passge or game) basis. for LR im tackling the question types first and then moving to timed sections. for LG im doing a random mix of games to stay current with my mindset. as for RC im do 10 passages a week. RC is giving me the most problems. the RC bible is helping out but i still need lots of work with RC.

thanks and i will be posting my improvement in JUNE with a possible outline for others like me on how to improve and study.

Z3RO
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby Z3RO » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:10 am

dodgerfan23 wrote:Dear TLS Forum Members,

I was studying a Reading Comprehension passage yesterday and noticed that my sister started to ask why I had purchased an extra study prep book or two. She later told me that with the LSAT you either "have it or you dont". Is this true? Is the LSAT really just a test of innate ability and that if you are scoring lets say in the mid 150's you are destined to stay hovering around that score? Or can you with lets hard work and practice bump that up to the mid 160's?

Someone help me out.

Thank you!

*I apologize for not reading the rest of this thread before posting.*

I jumped 16 points with dedicated study on the LSAT. You can vastly improve your score by studying. Don't let Reading Comp get to you; it was my worst section by the time I was nearing the test.

Study as much as you freakin' can without burning out. At least 3 practice tests a week. You'll see...

Somebody posted a pdf a few days ago written by some guy from Yale back in like 1991 that satired law school. The writer mentioned that some people take the LSAT "cold" without any prep. I quote "these people are called non-lawyers". He's right, and it's not because the test can't be successfully studied.

makingwaves
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby makingwaves » Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:13 pm

rw2264 wrote:your sister is being a huge debbie downer/negative nancy. tell her to stop trying to kill your confidence!


+1... i'm a firm believer that if you really are dedicated and log the study hours you can get the score you want!!!!!!!!

pattymac
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby pattymac » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:56 pm

A diagnostic isn't that indicative I think because the first time I took the LSAT, I had to read the decription at the top of the page, as well as each description of question type in each stem. If you really think about it, thats like an extra 5-7 minutes off each section...especially for the "EXCEPT" questions where you have to sit and spend an extra minute or so understanding what the questions ask you.

I had a 3, then 9, then 13 point increase from my original diagnostic with basically no prep aside from doing a few sections from PT's and the first few chapters of each bible very quickly. Don't underestimate how much being familiar with the subleties of the test helps you out in the long run. I've promised myself I'm not going to do another PT until I finnish both bibles (working on LR now).

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JazzOne
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby JazzOne » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:58 pm

Powerscore is based in Finland?

cavebat2000
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby cavebat2000 » Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:59 pm

First practice test: 147
First Actual LSAT: 160
Retake of LSAT: 171

You can do it too.

Derrex
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby Derrex » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:38 pm

The lsat is learnable but only to the degree of your maximum capability. And there is a maximum capability for each person that is most likely below 180.

crm
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby crm » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:42 pm

listen to what everyone is saying, it is very learnable. month and half of studying and increased 19 points. just work hard and focus.

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Lurkster
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby Lurkster » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:30 am

Everyone can improve, but not everyone has the same ceiling.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:05 pm

Lurkster wrote:Everyone can improve, but not everyone has the same ceiling.


So once you get to a certain ceiling there is a point where it is impossible to break, as in if someone were to spend 500 hours and had repeated the exact same score for the last 200 hours, they could not benefit if they put another 1000 more hours, or do you believe that within a range of acceptable normal preparation every person has a ceiling?

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Veyron
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby Veyron » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:08 am

Just take what she said, turn it 180 degrees, and *bam* your sister is right.

Derrex
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby Derrex » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:20 am

jason8821 wrote:
Lurkster wrote:Everyone can improve, but not everyone has the same ceiling.


So once you get to a certain ceiling there is a point where it is impossible to break, as in if someone were to spend 500 hours and had repeated the exact same score for the last 200 hours, they could not benefit if they put another 1000 more hours, or do you believe that within a range of acceptable normal preparation every person has a ceiling?


Pretty much yes, I think people asymptotically approach a point where they gain little if any improvement. Yes, there are people who could spend 2 years studying and still not pull into the upper 170s consistently on test day. Just like how I could train for the 100m and improve my time with each additional hour spent working, but regardless of how much time I spend, I'll never break usain bolt's record as it stands.

You might get lucky and just bubble in the correct answers, but from a knowledge perspective, you are capped.

Take this from a guy who's been studying for about a year.

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Veyron
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby Veyron » Tue Jan 19, 2010 1:53 am

vampy wrote:I doubt most people improve very much except for logic games which are very learnable. Most people go up very little after their first two weeks of studying.


After a few weeks of studying, I took my 2nd pt. My score had gone down 1pt. I studied for six moar months and at the end of that time, I had done almost every modern LSAT question in existance. I owned 98% of other test-takers. Some people learn very quickly, some learn slowly (like me). With enough dedication though, anyone can achieve a top score. The LSAT does not test any skills but LSAT taking skills. As an LSAT tutor I would say that if your score does NOT go down in the first few weeks you are studying incorrectly. Applying learned techniques is something that will distract you till you are comfortable with it.

MTaylor25
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby MTaylor25 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:25 am

vespertiliovir wrote:IMO she's right, in a sense. As with most other things academic, in spite of hard work and dedication, everyone has a ceiling.

That said, there is absolutely no reason why you should stop studying. Sure, you may only be able to score so high, but how will you know what that score is without constantly pushing yourself?


As a lifelong Bama fan I absolutely love the picture in your profile!!

I don't believe you either have it or you don’t when it comes to this test, extreme dedication and thorough studying can take you places you never imagined as far as this test is concerned. Certainly some people will have to work much harder than others but this test is supposed to be very learnable as far as standardized tests are concerned.

jnorsky
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jnorsky » Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:37 am

Ultimately, it is a have it or dont test. There are so many factors going into you getting a good score aside from being of innate intelligence. If you study hard, take practice tests and really can figure out why you are getting things wrong and change your habits, then you should do well, but some people cannot do this. It really is a test that you have to master for yourself. Reading comp is something that is hard to improve on and I went from -14 to -1 on test day because I was able to figure out how I do RC the best. If you are a person that is confident in your abilities then you should be able to rock this test. If you cant figure out the test and/or are not that confident, then be prepared for a lower score. Also, through all your prep and studying, test day is still all nerves. Averaging a 175 doesnt mean you will get that 175, the best thing to do is to take it when you are in a range you are comfortable being in whether or not you score at the bottom of that range.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:18 pm

Derrex wrote:
jason8821 wrote:
Lurkster wrote:Everyone can improve, but not everyone has the same ceiling.


So once you get to a certain ceiling there is a point where it is impossible to break, as in if someone were to spend 500 hours and had repeated the exact same score for the last 200 hours, they could not benefit if they put another 1000 more hours, or do you believe that within a range of acceptable normal preparation every person has a ceiling?


Pretty much yes, I think people asymptotically approach a point where they gain little if any improvement. Yes, there are people who could spend 2 years studying and still not pull into the upper 170s consistently on test day. Just like how I could train for the 100m and improve my time with each additional hour spent working, but regardless of how much time I spend, I'll never break usain bolt's record as it stands.

You might get lucky and just bubble in the correct answers, but from a knowledge perspective, you are capped.

Take this from a guy who's been studying for about a year.


This thread will go on forever.

Although there is probably some truth to the analogy above, it is unfair to compare the sort of maturation of the brain with developmental skills required to be an incredible athlete. This would assume that certain skills that are required to be athletic such as spatial and kinesthetic intelligence are as easy to attain as other forms of intelligence such as math and verbal. I would say the ceiling for one is much higher than the other, and recent studies seem to support that. Although a great deal can be done in improving athleticism, it is probably not comparable to improving on a test that requires a more limited scope in training. Also, a much greater percentage of the population has the ability from birth to attain a 170-180 with hard work than to become an olympic sprinter let alone a record breaking one.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:21 pm

Jason8821 and Derrex are commited to disagreeing about the following:




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