LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

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kswiss
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby kswiss » Sat Jan 09, 2010 4:33 am

I think the 10 points rule is pretty solid. Study for a couple of weeks and take a preptest... 10 points above that is probably the ceiling, unless you REALLY study hard.

Not to say it can't be done, and it probably depends where your initial diagnostic is. If you can get break 165, you can probably keep improving. If you are having trouble breaking 160, theres probably not a great chance that you can break 170.

Personally, my first PT after a week of studying was a 161. I studied for 2 months after, and raised my score to 170. I feel I could hit 175+ pretty easily if I retook, because I missed 4 on LG and 5 on a LR section. With another month of studying I could reduce LG to -0 (I got every attempted question right, I just ran out of time in the last game), and my normal for LR and RC is -2 or less.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 11:38 am

vespertiliovir wrote:
jason8821 wrote:I'm done with this diatribe, back to jersey shore.

--LinkRemoved--


I agree.

dovetail
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby dovetail » Sat Jan 09, 2010 1:17 pm

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Last edited by dovetail on Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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acrossthelake
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:48 pm

The LSAT is learnable to a certain extent, but I do think there's a limit. People on this forum I feel are often the exceptions you hear about. There are always exceptions, however, and in this particular situation it would be best to try to be the exception, rather than the rule.

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rw2264
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby rw2264 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:52 pm

depends.

if you've been PTing in the mid 150s for a while, you can probably push it past 160. getting to 165 might be a little harder.

if you've taken a few diagnostics and gotten discouraged and lazy and have gotten mid 150s on the few tests you've taken, that's not really representative of your ability, and who knows what you could actually be scoring.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:02 pm

I hope the above is true because I am experiencing exactly that. I have hit a huge rut in the upper 150's. Although I have not returned to logic games which I think will add a few raw points, and maybe push me over, I cannot get past that 16-18 point on the older exams in LR, and I know ALMOST everything about LR at this point.

The problem really is when you get to a point that you are over thinking easy questions, I almost never miss a question in the first 10 and i usually get done with 10 in 11 minutes or so, and on my last PT I got so nervous that I spent 3 minutes on #2 only to miss it.

I think the trick is to learn everything while maintaining your ability to distinguish the difficulty of the question, and keeping composed.

rw2264 wrote:depends.

if you've been PTing in the mid 150s for a while, you can probably push it past 160. getting to 165 might be a little harder.

if you've taken a few diagnostics and gotten discouraged and lazy and have gotten mid 150s on the few tests you've taken, that's not really representative of your ability, and who knows what you could actually be scoring.

ae1183
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby ae1183 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:38 pm

mallard wrote:Rate your sister on a 120-180 scale.


now that is funny.

seriously though, ive personally improved 11 pts (149-160) from the 1st pt (cold) to the 3rd pt (still cold) just by being more familiar with the test. Mind you this is without studying anything at all just taking the tests.

A way for me that helps out on improving or hope of improvement is: (I average about 17.5 out of 25 across the board on all sections with RC carrying the average over logic) imagine just getting 1 or 2 more questions in each section right which i think is reasonable and feasible for any half intelligent person which i assume you are, i personally am no genius. By getting 1 or 2 more right per 23-25 can alone bump your score by 4 to 5 pts. hope this helps, my early results are showing that familiarity with the test in itself is key, by being more familiar with the questions i have found myself being able to predict or half predict what the right answer should be, before reading the answers if that makes sense. good luck!

09042014
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:41 pm

I think diagnostics are worthless (and is also why taking the LSAT cold is downright stupid). For some people, especially high scorers, just learning the format of the test, and the timing is worth 10-15 points.

I think there are four main components of taking the lsat: the skills tested, familiarity with the format, timing, and stamina. The later three are extremely learnable but the skills being tested are trained over a lifetime and are probably limited by one's inherent intelligence.

So while my first cold PT was 158, after three weeks of study, my second PT was 165, my third was 170, and my fourth was 172, and I never saw the other side of 170. I didn't get better at LSAT skills, I just figured out how to time myself so I didn't miss a bunch of questions that I never looked at.

If a takers problem is they get questions wrong, they probably will only make somewhat modest gains.

tomwatts
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby tomwatts » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:54 pm

Desert Fox wrote:If a takers problem is they get questions wrong, they probably will only make somewhat modest gains.

You'd think, but this turns out not to be true. I've seen a lot of my students make really big accuracy gains by understanding the test better (well, and by slowing down).

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:31 pm

I take everything I said back. For me the LSAT has been either you have it or you don't. Was getting 15-16 on my worst section (RC), now I get consistent 12's. It seems as though I am working my way back down to the 140's.

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vespertiliovir
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby vespertiliovir » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:41 pm

Have you actually taken steps to improve -- do you review the passages and answers, have you tried the powerscore RC bible, or anything else that will help you bring up this weak-point?

HopefulLawStud
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby HopefulLawStud » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:45 pm

Is 17/18 and being a freshman in college too early to start becoming familiar with LSAT prep stuff?

APimpNamedSlickback
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby APimpNamedSlickback » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:47 pm

to a greater extent than people want to acknowledge. there is only so much information that people can process under stressful, time-constrained conditions, and some are naturally better at this than others

bigben
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby bigben » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:50 pm

Hard to say. I think ultimately it probably is about whether you "have it or don't." You probably have something of a max potential score of which you are capable. But there is a lot more to the story than that. Almost everyone needs some amount of preparation to reach their max potential. You just have to learn some of this stuff on a substantive level, and just as importantly, you have to train yourself to be calm under pressure on test day. People can vary quite a bit in how long it takes them to reach their max potential. For most people though, I think 6-8 weeks or so would typically be enough or more than enough if you are studying well 4-6 hrs a day.

Bottom line is that the LSAT probably does test mostly some inherent ability but there is also prep required to reach your potential. I went up about 20 points from my cold diagnostic after studying for about a month. A cold diagnostic is pretty much meaningless. Anyone telling you otherwise just doesn't know what they are talking about. I remember in college the pre-law adviser told me that I should only expect a 5-7 point gain from the diag. It seems like the majority of pre-law advisers don't know what they are talking about.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:59 pm

vespertiliovir wrote:Have you actually taken steps to improve -- do you review the passages and answers, have you tried the powerscore RC bible, or anything else that will help you bring up this weak-point?


Yeah, but I have not done a whole lot with RC. However the same thing is happening with LR where I have put in more hours than the average person probably does for the whole test. I quickly jumped from 15 right on diagnostic to 18 right on average for a few tests, and now I am back down to 15 for the last few. I have read the Powerscore LR bible cover to cover twice, and reviewed my questions for several sections. I actually was getting my highest scores on LR before I read Powerscore, and have not recovered since. I know more about the test than ever before, but I over think questions, fall into wrong answer traps etc.

Also, I was cleaning and found an old copy of my SAT's. I scored relatively high on everything with the exception of Reading Comp where I scored very poorly by this board/pre-law standards, (less than <50 percentile). I have wanted to study law for a while, but perhaps I am putting a round peg in a square hole.

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gymboree
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby gymboree » Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:02 pm

You can learn the LSAT. Practice practice practice. The only thing that seems to work (at least for me) is looking at WHY you got an answer wrong (why is the wrong answer the wrong answer, what trick did you fall for, what patterns can you discern, why is the right answer the right answer... that sort of thing - for EVERY SINGLE QUESTION).

Repeat ad infinitum.

keg411
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby keg411 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:39 pm

The LSAT is incredibly learnable. Once you understand what the questions are asking for, it's so much easier (at least for LR). Once you get the timing down for games, it's much easier. RC is probably the least "learnable" part and even with that it's kind of a combination of figuring out what the questions are asking and finishing all three passages.

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goosey
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby goosey » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:46 pm

its learnable. I underperformed on test day and even then it was 12 points above my diag. I usually test (pt) at about 20 pnts above my diag. RC could be seen as either you have it or you dont, but even with RC, somebody that does bad on RC that prep enough to get to decent. I dont know if a person that starts at -15 will ever get to -2, but they migh get to -5 or -6 with enough practice. LR and LG though--totally learnable. I started out with -12 and -14 on each section in LR and when i took the lsat i got -2 and -4.

cubswin
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby cubswin » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:49 pm

Maybe your sister is one of the people who could study for 100 hours and still have trouble scoring higher than a 150, and she wants to blame the LSAT instead of coming to terms with her inferior cognitive capacities.

But perhaps she's just wrong. :P

studylaw7
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby studylaw7 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:32 pm

every standardized test is learnable. The MCAT, SAT, GMAT, and LSAT are all learnable. But it should go without saying that in order to get a high score on any of these tests, you must have an innate intelligence in addition to preparation.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:57 pm

I think it's important to define learnable if innate intelligence is a required prerequisite for scoring high. Of course if someone is already good at taking tests they can learn their way to a relatively high score, I don't know that anyone would deny that, the question is can the average college graduate with an IQ of 105 score a 170 on the exam with enough practice.

A good hypothetical would be this. If the average college graduate spent one year with a three top notch (experts in each section) tutors 10-15 hours/week could they hit 170?

If the answer is often times yes, than the test is learnable.

ram jam
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby ram jam » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:01 pm

As someone who has significantly improved my score. The lsat is learnable to an extent, however, each individual has a ceiling. Study hard and max out your score!

studylaw7
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby studylaw7 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:02 pm

jason8821 wrote:I think it's important to define learnable if innate intelligence is a required prerequisite for scoring high. Of course if someone is already good at taking tests they can learn their way to a relatively high score, I don't know that anyone would deny that, the question is can the average college graduate with an IQ of 105 score a 170 on the exam with enough practice.

A good hypothetical would be this. If the average college graduate spent one year with a three top notch (experts in each section) tutors 10-15 hours/week could they hit 170?

If the answer is often times yes, than the test is learnable.


I think anyone, with significant preparation, can score anywhere in the 160s.

In order to hit 170+, you must have an innate intelligence. Thus, the LSAT, like any test is only learnable to a certain degree. After a certain point, it becomes innate intelligence. I believe it is absolutely impossible for an average person to score 175+ even with the best tutors in the world.

jason8821
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby jason8821 » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:34 pm

studylaw7 wrote:
jason8821 wrote:I think it's important to define learnable if innate intelligence is a required prerequisite for scoring high. Of course if someone is already good at taking tests they can learn their way to a relatively high score, I don't know that anyone would deny that, the question is can the average college graduate with an IQ of 105 score a 170 on the exam with enough practice.

A good hypothetical would be this. If the average college graduate spent one year with a three top notch (experts in each section) tutors 10-15 hours/week could they hit 170?

If the answer is often times yes, than the test is learnable.


I think anyone, with significant preparation, can score anywhere in the 160s.

In order to hit 170+, you must have an innate intelligence. Thus, the LSAT, like any test is only learnable to a certain degree. After a certain point, it becomes innate intelligence. I believe it is absolutely impossible for an average person to score 175+ even with the best tutors in the world.


Yeah I know each person has a number in mind, but I would say if nearly every college graduate can get into the 15-20th percentile with enough prep, than the test is learnable. At the same time I understand that there are a certain set of skills that the LSAT tests and if you are poor at those skills you will have an extremely hard time crossing into that 5 percentile range even with a ton of prep.

vampy
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Re: LSAT: Is it really whether you have it or you dont?

Postby vampy » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:21 pm

I doubt most people improve very much except for logic games which are very learnable. Most people go up very little after their first two weeks of studying.




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