LOCK ME PLEASE Forum

[daesonesb]

Here's what I'll say with respect to this forum: People on here are very short sighted. Even if you cant break a 150 on the LSAT and end up at a lower tier school, its not the end of the world.

If you really like the law, then retake one more time and apply to all those schools you listed. If you can't get into any of them, you'll have a new judgement call to make about whether you want to attend a lower ranked school. Talk to people in the field you are interested in, see what they think. Don't base a life decision on the inexperienced opinions of this message board! You can find ways to make whatever your situation is work out for you.

[r6_philly]

Here's what I'll say with respect to this forum: People on here are very short sighted. Even if you cant break a 150 on the LSAT and end up at a lower tier school, its not the end of the world.

If you really like the law, then retake one more time and apply to all those schools you listed. If you can't get into any of them, you'll have a new judgement call to make about whether you want to attend a lower ranked school. Talk to people in the field you are interested in, see what they think. Don't base a life decision on the inexperienced opinions of this message board! You can find ways to make whatever your situation is work out for you.

No it's not the end of the world. But given the GPA of OP, I would at least exhaust the LSAT options before accepting a lower tier school. It is a 4 hour commitment that, if lucky, can drastically improve your chances. If proper techniques are employed to maximize the OP's chances at a higher score (without even improving his English abilities) then perhaps there can be a decent improvement on the score, if really luck, then a huge improvement. I would at least give that a try before settling.

OP PM me if you want specifics of what I mean. I had typed it out for someone else I can forward it to you if you are interested.

[Bloggr22]

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[aether]

given the GPA of OP, I would at least exhaust the LSAT options before accepting a lower tier school.

I agree. Anybody who can pull that GPA at a good school should be able to do better on the LSAT than he's done so far.

OP: Step one is to figure out what's going wrong. With your GPA, you've obviously succeeded on many challenging tests during your academic career. Why are you stumbling on the LSAT when you've succeeded on so many other tests? Is it test jitters, or fatigue due to the length of the test, or poor technique, or...?

If you can figure out the problem, and a solid plan to correct it, then I agree you should retest. The differential between your GPA and your LSAT suggests that you haven't performed up to your true potential yet.

[tomwatts]

My issue is with time. I can't seem to finish the sections on time. And since I'm having to guess on one whole RC passage or on a game, I have more of a chance of getting more questions wrong. How can I speed up and maintain my accuracy at the same time? Any tips?

Every now and then, I find it instructive to do the math.

If you got a 142, that means you got in the neighborhood of 43 or 44 raw points. If you have to guess on a full RC passage, that's probably 6 or 7 questions that you're guessing on, and for a game, probably another 5 or 6. Let's be pessimistic and say that it's 7 in RC and 6 in games. Let's be pessimistic further and say that you're doing something similar on each LR section, so you're guessing on 6 on each section.

Out of 100 questions on the test, then, you're guessing a letter on 25 of them and actually answering 75 of them. You're getting about 5 points from the ones that you are guessing on (1/5 of 25). That means you're getting roughly 39/75 on the questions that you answer, for an accuracy rate of about 52%, which is, frankly, pretty crappy. If you could boost that accuracy rate to a more respectable 70%, you'd get about 52 points from the questions you're answering, plus the 5 from guessing, and you'd end up with 57 raw points for a decent 150. That's purely an accuracy boost, and not even much of one — going from 52% to 70% at the same pace.

Let's try a thought-experiment. Let's say you speed up. Let's say you manage to finish all four games and all the LR and RC, but you don't manage to improve your accuracy. Your rate is about 52%, so 52/100 is what you get. That's about a 146.

Now let's try another thought-experiment. Let's say you SLOW DOWN. Let's say you only answer barely over half the questions. Let's say it's 55. That means you're answering two games and two reading passages, but making sure that you do at least one longer game and at least one longer reading passage so that you're getting 12 questions out of 22 on the games or 15 questions out of 28 on the RC or whatever. Let's say, further, that you're going so slowly that you can get 95% of the questions right, allowing for a few silly mistakes here and there. That means you get (rounding down) 52/55 on the questions that you answer. Then you guess a letter on the other 45 questions and get roughly 1/5 of them right, so that's another 9 questions. That's 61 raw points, for a score of roughly 152.

What's my point, you might ask. My point is that time is not your problem. Accuracy is your problem. You could slow down and still score more (heck, TEN POINTS MORE) if you were more accurate. If you speed up but don't improve your accuracy, nothing good will come of it.

[Bloggr22]

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[jcl2]

OP, is English your second language? Clearly you are fluent and have been speaking it a long time, but even so, if it is not your native tongue that could be what is slowing you down. Definitely re-take and apply next year, but if English is indeed your second language also write an addendum explaining that. With URM status, your good gpa, a low to mid 150s score, and a compelling addendum explaining your poor lsat performance, you could have a good shot at quite a few schools, maybe even T20 or 30.

[imacpa]

So I took the June 2009 LSAT and scored a 137 (frankly speaking I was not ready and should have cancelled). I prepared for some months and took the Dec 2009 LSAT and got a 142. Needless to say, I am depressed and I feel as if I have a brain or test taking deficiency. I feel like an alien. I have a 3.72 from a moderately selective public undergrad institution. I have countless awards, part time/full time work, leadership, organizational, and volunteer experiences. I am an immigrant (came to the US at age 8 from a West African country). I also have some strong LORs.

1.What are the chances that my GPA will offset my LSAT??

2.Should I take the LSAT a THIRD time in June and wait to apply for the next cycle with a 150 or so?

3.Or should I apply anyway?

Surprisingly, I am considering Baltimore, Howard, Campbell, Temple, Charleston etc. Even more surprising, I am also looking at William and Mary, UVA, and American. Please be nice

Hi, Blogger.

I was in your shoes last year with an LSAT score similar to your's with an even lower GPA. I was denied admissions by most law schools. However, I managed to get accepted into two law schools. At present, I attend a Tier 3 public law school where I am very happy and succeeding well despite the odds of a low LSAT.

I will admit that with your score you will have a difficult time getting into any school in the top 100....or even most law schools given the level of competition. I was looking into retaking the LSAT last June (before my acceptance) so I decided to sign up for a LSAT prep course (Blueprint). I never retook the LSAT but I can honestly say that my scores were improving. Had I retaken the LSAT I would have been confident in breaking 150. But things turned out differently because of a summer prep program (CLEO) which allowed me to gain entry into law school. All I'm saying is that the LSAT is teachable through a good prep course.

One thing I will say that from my experience as a law student is I don't see much of a correlation between the LSAT and law school performance (except for Reading Comp). But still, the LSAT is the be all and end all when it comes to law school admissions.

I think you can benefit from retaking the LSAT for Feb or June either way. It's still not too late to get an acceptance for Fall 2010. I didn't get an acceptance until July! Most schools are still reviewing apps by then (or drawing from the waitlist pool). However, if you're looking at the top 30 schools then your chances will diminished since those schools have a much earlier deadline.

Depending on what you want to do with your law degree should determine where you should apply. If you're looking at BIGLAW, then that 142 is going to exclude you from most of the big name schools from which those firms recruit from. However, if you're looking at public interest, government, JAG, or even solo practice, then you might be better off going to a Tier 3/4 school (public school preferably). With your GPA and an improved LSAT even in the low 150s you'll have a much greater chance into getting into a school somewhere. You may even have a chance at Howard.

If you don't accept anything else from this thread, you need to understand this......don't let a low LSAT score keep you from attending law school if that's what you want. A low LSAT is not a reflection of your intellect. If I was successful in getting in, then it's likely you can get in somewhere too.

Best wishes on your journey!

[acrossthepond]

I think if you have the time a prep course is the way to go. They really help you figure out where you are going wrong. I was stuck and not getting any better on my scores so I took a course and it helped me pinpoint which kind of questions I was having trouble with.

[aether]

if English is indeed your second language also write an addendum explaining that.

Be very careful with that sort of addendum. Law school involves reading and writing a huge amount of complex material in English. You don't want to give the admission committee any reason to question your comprehension of English because they'll immediately start to wonder whether you can handle a law school curriculum.

Only raise that issue if you can show them how you overcame the problem, improved your English, and earned a much better score in a subsequent test.

[Bloggr22]

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[misformafia]

OP, is English your second language? Clearly you are fluent and have been speaking it a long time, but even so, if it is not your native tongue that could be what is slowing you down.

Yes, English is my second language. And you are right, I have been speaking it for a long time...for as long as I can remember. I am also a fluent speaker of an African dialect. Although I do not like making excuses for myself, I have also been thinking about that factor and it may be slowing me down as you mentioned. Thank you for your advice.

June LSAT and 2011 cycle here I come.

Very smart choice. Apply super early (like November). Good luck!

[Bloggr22]

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[Bloggr22]

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[determinedone]

Have you considered enrolling in a prep class?

Surprisingly, I took a PowerScore prep course before the Dec test from July-Sept. It was helpful, but I guess I went back to prepping the wrong way after the prep course ended *sighs*

Dude, I would really think twice about a career in law. Assuming you took the prep course seriously, a 142 seems to suggest real issues. Of the 125k unique test takers last year, there were only 85k unique applicants. A 142 is probably close to worst score among the people who end up applying. If law school was cheap, I'd say try it for a year and drop out.

Obviously give it your best shot if this is the career you want. You owe it to yourself. However, sometimes our talents don't line up with our desires. I would have loved to have been a scientist, but I realized I wasn't Rainman.

Dreams should always be followed. If law school is really your dream, if becoming an attorney is your goal in life, do not let it go. Study hard for the LSAT. Go over each question and understand what is going on. Don't just read and guess. Analyze, learn the form, comprehend. If this is your dream, make it happen. I know this post is a bit over the top, but do not give up on this if it is really your dream. If it is just an option that you've been considering, maybe you should reconsider, but don't let this one go if it is truly important to you.

+1

[FuturehoyaLawya]

Have you considered enrolling in a prep class?

Surprisingly, I took a PowerScore prep course before the Dec test from July-Sept. It was helpful, but I guess I went back to prepping the wrong way after the prep course ended *sighs*

Dude, I would really think twice about a career in law. Assuming you took the prep course seriously, a 142 seems to suggest real issues. Of the 125k unique test takers last year, there were only 85k unique applicants. A 142 is probably close to worst score among the people who end up applying. If law school was cheap, I'd say try it for a year and drop out.

Obviously give it your best shot if this is the career you want. You owe it to yourself. However, sometimes our talents don't line up with our desires. I would have loved to have been a scientist, but I realized I wasn't Rainman.

3.7 = talents. 142 is a low score, you just need to practice more. Don't let a test define your career path. If you can beef up your score to at least 150s, you will get into some great schools. Competition to law school is getting stiffer, so of course people will tell you just to give up. However, with your GPA, URM Status, and at great score, you will get into some great schools. If a 2.8 or lower and a 170+ can break into a top 14 law school, just think where you would end up as a 158+ and 3.7 URM. Use that as your motivation. So study hard and good luck!

[Bloggr22]

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[monkeyboy]

OP, is English your second language? Clearly you are fluent and have been speaking it a long time, but even so, if it is not your native tongue that could be what is slowing you down.

Yes, English is my second language. And you are right, I have been speaking it for a long time...for as long as I can remember. I am also a fluent speaker of an African dialect. Although I do not like making excuses for myself, I have also been thinking about that factor and it may be slowing me down as you mentioned. Thank you for your advice.

June LSAT and 2011 cycle here I come.

Good luck and don't listen to anybody who tells you that this isn't for you! Only you can make that decision.

[georgetown.hopeful]

--ImageRemoved--

...within perhaps the most cynical group of people online... you are legit

[Bloggr22]

Good luck and don't listen to anybody who tells you that this isn't for you! Only you can make that decision.

I agree. Thank you

[Bloggr22]

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[vtoodler]

I don't think the fact that English is your second language is hurting you. English is also my second language. But that did not keep me from scoring a 720 on the SATII writing test and a 690 on the SAT verbal part (which is now critical reading). I also speak an African dialect, as I'm from Nigeria. I also majored in English in college.

I think you just need more practice. The more practice you do, the better. Have you gotten any of the bibles or PTs?

The most important thing is to never give up. Don't let anyone here convince you that you shouldn't go to law school. If that's what you want, then do not give up. You can and you will get a higher score.

Best of luck.

[NayBoer]

3.7 = talents. 142 is a low score, you just need to practice more. Don't let a test define your career path. If you can beef up your score to at least 150s, you will get into some great schools. Competition to law school is getting stiffer, so of course people will tell you just to give up. However, with your GPA, URM Status, and at great score, you will get into some great schools. If a 2.8 or lower and a 170+ can break into a top 14 law school, just think where you would end up as a 158+ and 3.7 URM. Use that as your motivation. So study hard and good luck!

Hater.

The LSAT is curved, so there are way more applicants with high GPAs than there are applicants with high LSATs. USC, Emory and WUSTL all have GPA 75ths comparable to OP (3.7 ish) and LSAT 75ths from 166-168; all are ranked 18-20. Meanwhile, AR-Fayetteville, IU-Indy and Louisville, all ranked at the bottom of the T100, have GPA 75ths equal to or slightly higher than the 3 other schools, but they have LSAT 75ths at 159 or 160. Obviously the LSAT is much more determinative of where an applicant will place than GPA.

Maybe you think that schools SHOULD weight GPA much more, but obviously they don't or you wouldn't have to bring it up in several different threads.

I don't see how the cycles of >170 splitters are supposed to motivate <150 applicants.

[gbtbag]

I am glad I found this thread as I find it very encouraging--apart from the person who questioned whether or not someone with a low LSAT score should consider whether or not the law is for him. **** that!

I also got a very low score--140--despite taking the Powerscore test prep class. I wasn't scoring great on the tests but my score was climbing steadily. A 140 is significantly lower than what I was getting on the practice exams.

It's very ironic that a low LSAT score can stop someone with a high GPA from attending law school. Someone wrote on this board that we should not let a test score determine our career paths. I concur 100%. However, that is what the LSAT and LSAC has been allowed to do on our behalf, at least to some extent.

When I grew up in the UK, we never had multiple choice/fill-in-the-bubble tests. In fact, I'd never seen one until I took a placement exam for a local community college class. That was over 20 years ago. I thought it was nuts then, and I still do. However, I have seen for myself how people in the US who grew up taking multiple choice tests have a greater facility and level of comfort with them. They just make me nervous.

That didn't stop me from getting into UCLA and graduating with a double BA with a 3.79 GPA. I went on to UC Santa Cruz and got an MA in US History. I have great letters of recommendation.

But a very low LSAT score seems to cancel all that out. Even the school I want to attend--which is not even top 50--wouldn't take me with this score. My GPA is 1.2 higher than their 75% percentile GPA score.

When I ran that LSAC tool where you enter your GPA and your LSAT score, and it tells you which schools may take you, there were only a couple with my combination. I could probably get into Appalachian Law School. (After watching that Diane Sawyer report on "20/20" about how Mountain Dew is rotting teeth of Appalachians, I actually find that quite appealing but I couldn't get the funding!)

I've decided to put off applying for another year. As a much older student who could be the mother of most of you, that's not a decision I made lightly. But I need time to prepare for retaking the exam. The February test is too soon. The June test is also out for me due to work and family commitments. So I have almost 9 months to study for the September/ October LSAT.

It's hard when you work full-time and you're an old bag like me. But I'm not sure that after spending $1200 on the Powerscore class, plus $450 on a rinky-dink test prep, that I want to spend another $1,300 to take Kaplan.

I would rather spend the money on getting one-on-one tutoring because I think that's how I am going to be able to break through to understanding where I made mistakes.

Any thoughts?

[Space_Cowboy]

I am glad I found this thread as I find it very encouraging--apart from the person who questioned whether or not someone with a low LSAT score should consider whether or not the law is for him. **** that!

I also got a very low score--140--despite taking the Powerscore test prep class. I wasn't scoring great on the tests but my score was climbing steadily. A 140 is significantly lower than what I was getting on the practice exams.

It's very ironic that a low LSAT score can stop someone with a high GPA from attending law school. Someone wrote on this board that we should not let a test score determine our career paths. I concur 100%. However, that is what the LSAT and LSAC has been allowed to do on our behalf, at least to some extent.

When I grew up in the UK, we never had multiple choice/fill-in-the-bubble tests. In fact, I'd never seen one until I took a placement exam for a local community college class. That was over 20 years ago. I thought it was nuts then, and I still do. However, I have seen for myself how people in the US who grew up taking multiple choice tests have a greater facility and level of comfort with them. They just make me nervous.

That didn't stop me from getting into UCLA and graduating with a double BA with a 3.79 GPA. I went on to UC Santa Cruz and got an MA in US History. I have great letters of recommendation.

But a very low LSAT score seems to cancel all that out. Even the school I want to attend--which is not even top 50--wouldn't take me with this score. My GPA is 1.2 higher than their 75% percentile GPA score.

When I ran that LSAC tool where you enter your GPA and your LSAT score, and it tells you which schools may take you, there were only a couple with my combination. I could probably get into Appalachian Law School. (After watching that Diane Sawyer report on "20/20" about how Mountain Dew is rotting teeth of Appalachians, I actually find that quite appealing but I couldn't get the funding!)

I've decided to put off applying for another year. As a much older student who could be the mother of most of you, that's not a decision I made lightly. But I need time to prepare for retaking the exam. The February test is too soon. The June test is also out for me due to work and family commitments. So I have almost 9 months to study for the September/ October LSAT.

It's hard when you work full-time and you're an old bag like me. But I'm not sure that after spending $1200 on the Powerscore class, plus $450 on a rinky-dink test prep, that I want to spend another $1,300 to take Kaplan.

I would rather spend the money on getting one-on-one tutoring because I think that's how I am going to be able to break through to understanding where I made mistakes.

Any thoughts?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... =6&t=41657