Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

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Philo38
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby Philo38 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:30 pm

showNprove wrote:Actually, the poster from JD Underground probably isn't far off. From examining schools' reputations and their placement records, I put the ceiling at about T40, rather than T30. I'm of the opinion that it's not worth to go to law school outside the T40 (give or take) without some scholarship unless being an attorney is your sole desire in life.

Then again, if that sole desire is to be a biglaw attorney, and you can't crack T40, you might as well quit while you're (financially) ahead.


You really have to consider the future though. The JD could prove to be a very very valuable degree in a world where more and more people have BAs or BSs. I'm of the opinion that most of the people like the posters on JD underground actually are losers. Not because they are unable to hack it in the legal market, but because seeing that they have a distaste for law firms, they failed to figure out how they can otherwise utilize or market themselves.

My father does have any degree and I've never heard him wine like they do. The fact is he is capable of being successful and he is because he worked his ass off and they could be as well. They probably all went to law school thinking a JD is a guaranteed free ticket to a good job no matter how lazy/stupid they are. Woops.

showNprove
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby showNprove » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:31 pm

mpj_3050 wrote:I have a friend that is contemplating law school and more than likely would have to go to a 3rd or 4th tier. I mean, I am not some elitist that believes HYS are the only options and I know that I can't go to a t-10. But I know that I can offer a very competitive app at the 15-50 block. Really, what if you had to go to a 3rd or 4th and were still bearing most the financial burden? I keep telling him that it probably isn't worth it. Is the consensus that you pretty much have to go to a top-50 to stand a decent shot or an outlier at the bottom ones? His absolute best-case scenario is admission to the 60's ranking wise.

If he can get into the 60's, he may be able to get money at a T3 or T4. Tell him to apply to T3/T4 schools in the market where he wants to work to see if he can get a substantial scholarship.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:32 pm

bumblebeetoona wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Maybe I should have stated "people who know the test well". If some advice is bullshit, chances are they're going to be told that.

Jesus, don't be so nitpicking.


I'm not nitpicking. I believe that a lot of people here lie about their scores, and that the TLS population in general is not even close to representative of actual T14 students. That doesn't mean I don't love many posters here (including you).


I can go ahead and fax you the certified copy of my 182 LSAT score report if you'd like proof.

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Philo38
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby Philo38 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:34 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
bumblebeetoona wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Maybe I should have stated "people who know the test well". If some advice is bullshit, chances are they're going to be told that.

Jesus, don't be so nitpicking.


I'm not nitpicking. I believe that a lot of people here lie about their scores, and that the TLS population in general is not even close to representative of actual T14 students. That doesn't mean I don't love many posters here (including you).


I can go ahead and fax you the certified copy of my 182 LSAT score report if you'd like proof.


Can you make one with my name on it? I'll attach that puppy to my apps.

katieg
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby katieg » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:35 pm

showNprove wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:I have a friend that is contemplating law school and more than likely would have to go to a 3rd or 4th tier. I mean, I am not some elitist that believes HYS are the only options and I know that I can't go to a t-10. But I know that I can offer a very competitive app at the 15-50 block. Really, what if you had to go to a 3rd or 4th and were still bearing most the financial burden? I keep telling him that it probably isn't worth it. Is the consensus that you pretty much have to go to a top-50 to stand a decent shot or an outlier at the bottom ones? His absolute best-case scenario is admission to the 60's ranking wise.

If he can get into the 60's, he may be able to get money at a T3 or T4. Tell him to apply to T3/T4 schools in the market where he wants to work to see if he can get a substantial scholarship.


Let's make this easier. If you had to choose between a private Tier 2 at full price OR a TTT state school that you could go to for around 8K a year (not including living expenses), which would you choose?

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Philo38
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby Philo38 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:38 pm

katieg wrote:
showNprove wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:I have a friend that is contemplating law school and more than likely would have to go to a 3rd or 4th tier. I mean, I am not some elitist that believes HYS are the only options and I know that I can't go to a t-10. But I know that I can offer a very competitive app at the 15-50 block. Really, what if you had to go to a 3rd or 4th and were still bearing most the financial burden? I keep telling him that it probably isn't worth it. Is the consensus that you pretty much have to go to a top-50 to stand a decent shot or an outlier at the bottom ones? His absolute best-case scenario is admission to the 60's ranking wise.

If he can get into the 60's, he may be able to get money at a T3 or T4. Tell him to apply to T3/T4 schools in the market where he wants to work to see if he can get a substantial scholarship.


Let's make this easier. If you had to choose between a private Tier 2 at full price OR a TTT state school that you could go to for around 8K a year (not including living expenses), which would you choose?


Go to the most expensive school around and than file bankruptcy . . . student loans are bankruptable right? Yeah I'm pretty sure I'm doing that.

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:38 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
bumblebeetoona wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
MTal wrote:Unlike the people posters here, the posters there have "been there, done that." I wouldn't lightly dismiss what they have to say.


You have a self-selecting group of the biggest losers of a very big profession. I wouldn't take what they say too heavily.


But on TLS we have a self-selecting group of 0Ls and 1Ls who think they know a lot more than they actually do. :|


Granted. Which is why I ignore a lot of the stuff on here. I wouldn't take what the vast majority of people on TLS say too seriously either. You need to understand who is doing the posting. JDU has all the schmucks who have failed at life for the most part and on TLS you have word of mouth hearsay passed around by people who often don't know better.

On the other hand, TLS does really shine in the LSAT department.


TLS is a welcoming and supportive community, but we don't know everything. We know that we don't know. Most of us aren't bitter or jaded (yet.) The most important thing to be taken away from this website (or JDU, for that matter) is to do your homework. Go out and talk to the people practicing. Talk to current students. There are no easy answers, and not everyone will be happy practicing law. It pays to learn about the market, learn about the schools, and learn about yourself.

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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:45 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
MTal wrote:
Author: katre
Subject: agree
Time: October 12, 2009 - 7:28 am

i would have quit law school my first semester, too... but couldn't b/c i didn't want to be labeled a "quitter" and didn't want people to think i was quitting b/c i couldn't 'hack it.'

i wanted to quit for financial reasons... i knew i'd end up 100k in debt and start my career at 50k. Which is exactly what happened, and now i'm financially ruined for the next 30 years paying $1,000/month in loans. i am a lawyer, working 60+ hours a week and it feels like i'm living below the poverty line. i honestly can't afford a new pair of shoes right now.

it was my ego that made me stay in law school... and i'll be paying for it the next 30 years. i really wish I had had the courage to quit, as well.


Does this sound like a "loser" to you?

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=39525


yes?

dumbasses need to understand 1) what they're getting into beforehand and 2) sunk costs


Terrifically bad judgment and failure to rationally weigh consequences have a very strong positive correlation with loserliness, so yes... this was not a good example of someone who is not a loser.

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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby Kohinoor » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:23 pm

Philo38 wrote:student loans are bankruptable right?
No.

showNprove
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby showNprove » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:27 pm

katieg wrote:
showNprove wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:I have a friend that is contemplating law school and more than likely would have to go to a 3rd or 4th tier. I mean, I am not some elitist that believes HYS are the only options and I know that I can't go to a t-10. But I know that I can offer a very competitive app at the 15-50 block. Really, what if you had to go to a 3rd or 4th and were still bearing most the financial burden? I keep telling him that it probably isn't worth it. Is the consensus that you pretty much have to go to a top-50 to stand a decent shot or an outlier at the bottom ones? His absolute best-case scenario is admission to the 60's ranking wise.

If he can get into the 60's, he may be able to get money at a T3 or T4. Tell him to apply to T3/T4 schools in the market where he wants to work to see if he can get a substantial scholarship.


Let's make this easier. If you had to choose between a private Tier 2 at full price OR a TTT state school that you could go to for around 8K a year (not including living expenses), which would you choose?

Hmm, a school that offers practically no chance at a high-paying job or a high-level government gig for $180k, or a school that offers me about the same chances for only about $75k. I'd go with the TTT at $8k/yr tuition.

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Philo38
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby Philo38 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:30 pm

Kohinoor wrote:
Philo38 wrote:student loans are bankruptable right?
No.


I was . . . trying to be funny . . .

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ruleser
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby ruleser » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:39 pm

MTal wrote:
Author: katre
Subject: agree
Time: October 12, 2009 - 7:28 am

i would have quit law school my first semester, too... but couldn't b/c i didn't want to be labeled a "quitter" and didn't want people to think i was quitting b/c i couldn't 'hack it.'

i wanted to quit for financial reasons... i knew i'd end up 100k in debt and start my career at 50k. Which is exactly what happened, and now i'm financially ruined for the next 30 years paying $1,000/month in loans. i am a lawyer, working 60+ hours a week and it feels like i'm living below the poverty line. i honestly can't afford a new pair of shoes right now.

it was my ego that made me stay in law school... and i'll be paying for it the next 30 years. i really wish I had had the courage to quit, as well.


Does this sound like a "loser" to you?

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=39525

Um, yes - I hope you were being ironic - like I've said before, lots of people who are miserable and without direction choose law thinking it will solve their issue/life or because their family wants them too, they think it sounds cool, etc. And, funny, miserable whiners who hated their old professions hate their new legal profession. This guy's still in school even.

From lawyers I know, I've heard complaints - always from TTT people, and always people still practicing the law - they are free to quit if it's so bad - thing is, they would be whining whatever they were doing, just instead of bagging on the law profession saying, "If I had just gone to law school I wouldn't be in this suckass profession." Then guess what - those out there who are doing that go ahead and come to law school. It's the nature of what law represents that draws a flock of miserable, directionless people with no interest in law.

I'll add I've worked many professions - I haven't heard a single thing about law, from JDU or anywhere else - that is different from any other profession - miserable hours, sucky pay. Waiter, corporate type, you can find these problems anywhere. The difference is there is no, "English Degree Underground" because no one in the profession makes money. In law, JDU exists because the have nots are jealous of the haves I guess.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby mpj_3050 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:43 pm

Well, my friend is a 2.9 undergrad finance and a 3.4 grad with an M.A. 158 LSAT and no matter what I keep telling him, it is the undergrad GPA that matters because the adcomm needs a reference point between applicants. As I have widely read around here a 3.5 in communications trumps a 2.8 in some hard science. I am just running into more and more people who think that every lawyer gets the keys to the company Mercedes and wears a $2000 Brooks Brothers suit every day. I cheeked out that JDU site and it does seem to be inhabited by some pissed-off individuals, haha.

I am just concerned for him because another close friend is at a 4th tier coming out with 80k in debt and doesn't seem to realize how serious the situation is.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby Helmholtz » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:43 pm

ruleser wrote: In law, JDU exists because the have nots are jealous of the haves I guess.


Reminds me of a JDU thread where they posted pictures of successful lawyers and then complained about how much it made them all sick to see these lawyers in expensive clothes attending high-class social events with their attractive wives.

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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby pjarron » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:45 pm

bumblebeetoona wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Maybe I should have stated "people who know the test well". If some advice is bullshit, chances are they're going to be told that.

Jesus, don't be so nitpicking.


I'm not nitpicking. I believe that a lot of people here lie about their scores, and that the TLS population in general is not even close to representative of actual T14 students. That doesn't mean I don't love many posters here (including you).


+1

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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby OperaSoprano » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:48 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
ruleser wrote: In law, JDU exists because the have nots are jealous of the haves I guess.


Reminds me of a JDU thread where they posted pictures of successful lawyers and then complained about how much it made them all sick to see these lawyers in expensive clothes attending high-class social events with their attractive wives.


This doesn't surprise me. It makes me sad, but it doesn't surprise me.

What accounts for all the self selection of unhappy people into law, anyway?

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ruleser
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby ruleser » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:49 pm

katieg wrote:I've been surfing through JD underground, and I've come across some very interesting topics. As most of you know, these people absolutely despise the profession because of the current position they're in - Many went to tier 3s and have no job but plenty of debt.

I came across a poster today that said something that I thought I would ask about on TLS. He said that if you can't get into a T30 (at LEAST) and you definitely want to go to law school, then it is a good idea to take a full ride at a TTT or even a TTTT rather than paying for higher tuition at a lower ranked T1/T2.

What do all of you think about this?

It all depends on specific location, schools, goals. For LA for example, no real comparison in your range, since it goes T17, then down to T2. But say you had Loyola at sticker vs. some T4 for free, you might be better with Loyola honestly - if you will finish near the top of your class. But if it's Loyola vs. specifically Southwestern, and Loyola is sticker and Southwestern is free, might be a tougher call. But Loyola sticker vs. La Verne? I'd have to do Loyola or nothing. In Illinois, compare U of Ill to what, DePaul? Loyola (Chi)? I would probably do Ill over DePaul, even at sticker vs. free. And would I do a TTTT for free over Loyola (Chi) if I wanted to work Chicago - me, probably not. I would study and retake the LSAT and make sure to get into a school that offered the ops I want. It's kind of like if my goal is the play baseball for a career - if I don't make the majors, I might take the minors, but if offered a weekend softball league? Probably no point. If a TTTT suits your goal - ie you just want to learn the law, maybe add the education to your current career knowledge, could be fine. If you want to be President, maybe not. It's all very specific and there's probably no perfect answer in general, you just have to look at your goals and go from there.

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ruleser
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby ruleser » Mon Oct 12, 2009 11:54 pm

OperaSoprano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
ruleser wrote: In law, JDU exists because the have nots are jealous of the haves I guess.


Reminds me of a JDU thread where they posted pictures of successful lawyers and then complained about how much it made them all sick to see these lawyers in expensive clothes attending high-class social events with their attractive wives.


This doesn't surprise me. It makes me sad, but it doesn't surprise me.

What accounts for all the self selection of unhappy people into law, anyway?

Because, as some poster wrote on TLS today, they are applying to law school because, "This is my last chance to have a meaningful career," lots of people hate their jobs or get a degree and realize they don't know what to do, so they want some big lofty goal - pro baller is out, med school requires lots of pre reqs, so, blammo, law - law will be the lift I need in life. I'll have arrived, be someone, make a better living... and then it turns out, surprise, a miserable person is still a miserable person, and now is one with a lot of debt in a profession they didn't really want. Law is a "last hope" dream as the TLS poster put it - read midlife crisis/make-up-for-career-choice-regret, etc.

It can be good for these things for the right people maybe, but, goodness, when i think of the lawyers I know who are those TTT complainers (who actually have decent jobs) I immediately think, these people couldn't be more wrong for the profession. They just thought law was like a Gucci purse, a status thing. I've never heard a word from them about why they wanted to practice law - just that they thought law was some dream and, oops, it's reality. Goodness, I wish whining beyond a certain point meant you got disbarred, that would fix things.

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nealric
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby nealric » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:06 am

He said that if you can't get into a T30 (at LEAST) and you definitely want to go to law school, then it is a good idea to take a full ride at a TTT or even a TTTT rather than paying for higher tuition at a lower ranked T1/T2.


The problem is the full ride at the TTT usually has strings attached (have to stay in top 50%, etc.) and won't pay living expenses.

IMO, inexpensive state school is the way to go if you can't get into the elites. If you don't live in a state with such a school, it might be worth moving to one for a year before law school.

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rondemarino
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby rondemarino » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:08 am

bumblebeetoona wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Maybe I should have stated "people who know the test well". If some advice is bullshit, chances are they're going to be told that.

Jesus, don't be so nitpicking.


I'm not nitpicking. I believe that a lot of people here lie about their scores, and that the TLS population in general is not even close to representative of actual T14 students. That doesn't mean I don't love many posters here (including you).


What percent of people here even reveal their scores?

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OperaSoprano
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby OperaSoprano » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:11 am

ruleser wrote:
OperaSoprano wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
ruleser wrote: In law, JDU exists because the have nots are jealous of the haves I guess.


Reminds me of a JDU thread where they posted pictures of successful lawyers and then complained about how much it made them all sick to see these lawyers in expensive clothes attending high-class social events with their attractive wives.


This doesn't surprise me. It makes me sad, but it doesn't surprise me.

What accounts for all the self selection of unhappy people into law, anyway?

Because, as some poster wrote on TLS today, they are applying to law school because, "This is my last chance to have a meaningful career," lots of people hate their jobs or get a degree and realize they don't know what to do, so they want some big lofty goal - pro baller is out, med school requires lots of pre reqs, so, blammo, law - law will be the lift I need in life. I'll have arrived, be someone, make a better living... and then it turns out, surprise, a miserable person is still a miserable person, and now is one with a lot of debt in a profession they didn't really want. Law is a "last hope" dream as the TLS poster put it - read midlife crisis/make-up-for-career-choice-regret, etc.

It can be good for these things for the right people maybe, but, goodness, when i think of the lawyers I know who are those TTT complainers (who actually have decent jobs) I immediately think, these people couldn't be more wrong for the profession. They just thought law was like a Gucci purse, a status thing. I've never heard a word from them about why they wanted to practice law - just that they thought law was some dream and, oops, it's reality. Goodness, I wish whining beyond a certain point meant you got disbarred, that would fix things.


This makes sense. I see law school as a grand adventure, but I also love it for what it is substantively; pin-citing, and memos at 4:00 am. I don't know what's going to happen next, and I expect to make in the neighborhood of $40k when I get out of here (public interest FTW), but really, I knew that when I walked in.

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SplitterPride
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby SplitterPride » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:17 am

Want to know what THEY think about YOU?

HERE:

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=39448

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:18 am

bumblebeetoona wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Maybe I should have stated "people who know the test well". If some advice is bullshit, chances are they're going to be told that.

Jesus, don't be so nitpicking.


I'm not nitpicking. I believe that a lot of people here lie about their scores, and that the TLS population in general is not even close to representative of actual T14 students. That doesn't mean I don't love many posters here (including you).


really? i dont see the incentive for lying online -- lol, make your screen name look better? ppl on here might alter their true numbers a smidge (due to paranoia), but hardly outright lie haha.

and i think TLS comes the closest (relative to any other law forum) of representing T14 and top law schools...you know, besides say a forum FOR some specific T14 law school haha.

keg411
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby keg411 » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:23 am

nealric wrote:
He said that if you can't get into a T30 (at LEAST) and you definitely want to go to law school, then it is a good idea to take a full ride at a TTT or even a TTTT rather than paying for higher tuition at a lower ranked T1/T2.


The problem is the full ride at the TTT usually has strings attached (have to stay in top 50%, etc.) and won't pay living expenses.

IMO, inexpensive state school is the way to go if you can't get into the elites. If you don't live in a state with such a school, it might be worth moving to one for a year before law school.


TITCR. More importantly, inexpensive state school where you are willing to live and work for quite a while.

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rondemarino
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Re: Drinking the JD Underground Kool-Aid.

Postby rondemarino » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:24 am

SplitterPride wrote:Want to know what THEY think about YOU?

HERE:

http://www.jdunderground.com/thread.php?threadId=39448


Not sure what to make of it..... I don't think TLS is that clueless, but then again....




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