How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

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mallard
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby mallard » Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:52 pm

Pretty bad in many cases.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Jun 14, 2009 7:57 pm

TonyDigital wrote:I might eventually be going to a Tier 4 school and wouldn't mind..it dominates moot court competitions and likewise is ranked top 5 I believe for litigation. Anyhow...there are people that say anything out of Tier 1 is garbage. But you can find success stories at any level. Off the top of my head, James Carville graduated from LSU Law and one of the newest US Congressmen, Joseph Cao, graduated from Loyola New Orleans (Tier 3).

If you really think coming from a Tier 4 school will hinder you from reaching YOUR potential...maybe you don't have what it takes to be the next success story. I think truly successfuly people will succeed in a number of ways...whether coming from a top school like U of Texas or a T4 like Texas Southern for example. Obviously, a top school like UT will open many many more doors for you. But with the right amount of determination and hard work...you can open some doors on your own that might be closed to some of your classmates.



This is obviously correct of course, there will be successful people coming out of every law school. Somebody has to hit that 1 in 100 shot. It is not a great idea to assume that it will be you.

thisguy456
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby thisguy456 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:06 pm

wendyone wrote:
There are many reasons some people don't ace the LSATs.

What in a person's undergrad career could possibly cause them to falter in their grades? Let's see. It could be a variety of different factors.


You forgot to mention "my dog ate my homework."

Sometimes people just have to own up.

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wendyone
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby wendyone » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:51 pm

cameronfraser88 wrote:
First of all the test isn't 8 hours long. You don't have time to stand or stretch when needed because most people need the entire time they are taking the test. I'm not saying they should be denied equitable educational opportunities, I'm just saying they shouldn't be held to a different standard than everyone for a disorders that constitute the most common mis diagnosis's out there. Do you realize how easy it is for someone to go to a doctor and convince them within 20 minutes they have a LD? If LSAC accommodated that then I guarantee there would be a lot of individuals with LD all of the sudden.


First of all- LSAC does accommodate them. They have to by law. It's right there on the website. You have to provide documentation, of course. My proposal is that many students don't want law schools to know they have LD because of the stigma attached.

It's not holding someone to a different standard to provide reasonable accommodations. That's the whole point of the Americans With Disabilities Act. That it is NOT providing an advantage.

And you're confusing "equitable" with "equal".

I do see your point, because it's very difficult to understand an invisible disability. People have a very hard time accepting that they are legit.

I would put forth, however, that any doctor who is convinced within 20 minutes that a patient has an LD should be disbarred. To be properly diagnosed for the purposes of accommodations a student has to go through a battery of tests, and they're not generally the sort of tests you can "fake out" of, because they include complex IQ tests that assess different neuro-cognitive functions.

Clearly I'm not talking about a 6 year old on an IEP.

But at an advanced level of education in which a student requested reasonable accommodations of this nature, this would be appropriate.

(I hold masters degree in education specializing in students with special needs. I'm not by any means trying to claim this as a means of expertise, but perhaps it explains why I have a stake in the educational system and the provisions for students with disabilities.)

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wendyone
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby wendyone » Sun Jun 14, 2009 8:52 pm

thisguy456 wrote:
wendyone wrote:
There are many reasons some people don't ace the LSATs.

What in a person's undergrad career could possibly cause them to falter in their grades? Let's see. It could be a variety of different factors.


You forgot to mention "my dog ate my homework."

Sometimes people just have to own up.


Sometimes people just have to grow up.

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Hook 'Em
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Hook 'Em » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:04 pm

mallard wrote:Pretty bad in many cases.


Going to a T4 school isn't the end of the world, but your odds at getting a biglaw position are extremely slim. Make sure you take the ability to pay down any debt incurred during law school into your considerations. Personally, I wouldn't attend a T4 school without a significant scholarship (or parents willing to pay for school). Going to a T4 school will not curse you to having a horrible career, but it could limit your options after graduation.

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dresden doll
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby dresden doll » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:08 pm

Going to a T4 is an unwise decision, particularly ITE. Don't do it.

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TonyDigital
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby TonyDigital » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:30 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:
TonyDigital wrote:I might eventually be going to a Tier 4 school and wouldn't mind..it dominates moot court competitions and likewise is ranked top 5 I believe for litigation. Anyhow...there are people that say anything out of Tier 1 is garbage. But you can find success stories at any level. Off the top of my head, James Carville graduated from LSU Law and one of the newest US Congressmen, Joseph Cao, graduated from Loyola New Orleans (Tier 3).

If you really think coming from a Tier 4 school will hinder you from reaching YOUR potential...maybe you don't have what it takes to be the next success story. I think truly successfuly people will succeed in a number of ways...whether coming from a top school like U of Texas or a T4 like Texas Southern for example. Obviously, a top school like UT will open many many more doors for you. But with the right amount of determination and hard work...you can open some doors on your own that might be closed to some of your classmates.



This is obviously correct of course, there will be successful people coming out of every law school. Somebody has to hit that 1 in 100 shot. It is not a great idea to assume that it will be you.


And that's why I said that ^. If you're going into any situation with a defeatist attitude...most likely you'll be defeated. That has more to do with the person than the school imo...that's the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying going to a T4 is a great choice...but I guess I'd have to really know what your other choices are to determine which is the better choice. The question by OP is too vague.

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Cara
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Cara » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:47 pm

In almost every case "retake LSAT" is a much better option than taking on a mountain of debt to go to a school with very poor employment outcomes for its graduates. You may believe you will be the exception but the odds are you'll be one of the vast majority who can't get any legal job or who try to pay $150K of debt on a $35K salary.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby D. H2Oman » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:02 pm

TonyDigital wrote:
Dwaterman86 wrote:
TonyDigital wrote:I might eventually be going to a Tier 4 school and wouldn't mind..it dominates moot court competitions and likewise is ranked top 5 I believe for litigation. Anyhow...there are people that say anything out of Tier 1 is garbage. But you can find success stories at any level. Off the top of my head, James Carville graduated from LSU Law and one of the newest US Congressmen, Joseph Cao, graduated from Loyola New Orleans (Tier 3).

[u]If you really think coming from a Tier 4 school will hinder you from reaching YOUR potential...maybe you don't have what it takes to be the next success story[/u]. I think truly successfuly people will succeed in a number of ways...whether coming from a top school like U of Texas or a T4 like Texas Southern for example. Obviously, a top school like UT will open many many more doors for you. But with the right amount of determination and hard work...you can open some doors on your own that might be closed to some of your classmates.



This is obviously correct of course, there will be successful people coming out of every law school. Somebody has to hit that 1 in 100 shot. It is not a great idea to assume that it will be you.


And that's why I said that ^. If you're going into any situation with a defeatist attitude...most likely you'll be defeated. That has more to do with the person than the school imo...that's the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying going to a T4 is a great choice...but I guess I'd have to really know what your other choices are to determine which is the better choice. The question by OP is too vague.



I would disagree with that statement. It goes deeper than just attitude. Tier 4 law schools are almost always really bad choices. Exceptions would be if you can come out with very minimal debt AND you have a realistic view of the type of job prospects you can expect.

There is a congressman who went to Cooley,the mayor of LA went to People's College of law. That doesn't speak anything as to the prospects of those schools though. Tier 4 law schools graduate hundreds of people every year, some are bound to be successful. That really only speaks to the power of large numbers, and not what someone can reasonably expect to achieve with that education.

lhfan
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lhfan » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:06 pm

Sorry to be harsh but if the best school you can get into is a T4, then you should reconsider your career options. It doesn't matter to me personally whether you wish to burden yourself with 150k of debt and poor job opportunities, so do what you want with your life.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby hlsjd12 » Sun Jun 14, 2009 10:07 pm


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wendyone
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby wendyone » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:41 am

I think we can take all of what everyone has said and distill it to this:

If money is more important to you than practicing law, than do not go to a t4 school. If, however, you've decided you want to practice law because you truly want to do that with your life, you have some odd, twisted love of the legal profession and all of the crazy crap that goes with it, and you're willing to deal with possibly being in debt for a long time and working your ass off much harder than your peers who get an easier time, then you shouldn't feel like you absolutely can NOT go to a t4 school.

The choice IS yours; assess your priorities and be realistic. Take advice into consideration, but man, if you honestly are going into law just to make a crapload of money, then everyone else on this forum is absolutely right.

It's not worth going to a t4, t3, or t2, and unless you are 100% confident in your academic awesomeness, you should probably opt out unless you land a spot in a t14.

Otherwise, financially, it's not prudent. If you're really basing it on safe odds of landing a big law job and happily ever after money, you need to hold yourself to those standards.

Just think about the amount of risk you're willing to take, and what you want to risk it on.

Hope it helps.

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TonyDigital
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby TonyDigital » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:44 am

Dwaterman86 wrote:
TonyDigital wrote:And that's why I said that ^. If you're going into any situation with a defeatist attitude...most likely you'll be defeated. That has more to do with the person than the school imo...that's the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying going to a T4 is a great choice...but I guess I'd have to really know what your other choices are to determine which is the better choice. The question by OP is too vague.

I would disagree with that statement. It goes deeper than just attitude. Tier 4 law schools are almost always really bad choices. Exceptions would be if you can come out with very minimal debt AND you have a realistic view of the type of job prospects you can expect.

There is a congressman who went to Cooley,the mayor of LA went to People's College of law. That doesn't speak anything as to the prospects of those schools though. Tier 4 law schools graduate hundreds of people every year, some are bound to be successful. That really only speaks to the power of large numbers, and not what someone can reasonably expect to achieve with that education.


I don't think we're actually arguing different points here as I agree with what you just said. I guess we're looking at it from glass half empty/half full points of views. Going to a T4 the odds are against you compared to the competition. And if that dissuades a person from attending law school then that person probably would've been one of the ones that wouldn't succeed. IMO moreso because of that persons attitude and personality than the school they went to.

I would love to go to a top school...but if I don't get into one I'm going to go to the school that gives me the best opportunities in the cities I want to live in. I'm confident in myself. I'm a non-trad and have years of work experience to give me tangible reasons to be confident in my abilities. Maybe I'm rare. But to blame ones failures (or future failures) on a school is a cop out if you ask me. Those people need to look in the mirror and start assigning some blame imo.

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Z'Barron
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Z'Barron » Mon Jun 15, 2009 12:57 am

lyricsoprano wrote:
Z'Barron wrote:
biv0ns wrote:How do you go from Harvard and Yale to T4? Whatever happened to 3-100? T3 even? As someone said, there are many schools between those that you listed.


I think OP just used an extreme example to illustrate a generality. The other schools are redundant. We can cut OP some slack. :wink:
The OP also said this:
specifically Nova Southeastern University (just using that as an example)
He contradicts himself there, saying that he is "specifically" talking about that school, and yet he's only using it as an example. I just took "specifically" and ran with it :)


This is why I tend to answer "inference" questions with a high degree of accuracy. OP did slightly contradict himself and could have avoided this by excluding the word "specifically" in a sentence with "for example". But the inference is that he's juxtaposing highly ranked "name' schools with TTTT schools. Nothing more. I took his very negligible error, made my inference, and cut OP some slack.

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Z'Barron
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Z'Barron » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:03 am

wendyone wrote:Okay, I'm going to come out and say it.

Fuck the snobs who tell you not to go to school at all.

Fuck them.

Excuse my language. I'm really not a jerk. But it pisses me off.

The amount of arrogance it takes to assume that a person has no options but to attend a t4 because they are in some way intellectually inferior or lazy is unfounded and offensive.

There are many reasons some people don't ace the LSATs.

One very common one is LD. There are plenty of future law students with learning disabilities that do not interfere with their academic abilities as far as research, paper writing, debate, classwork, and even regular testing situations for the most part but for whom certain extreme timed testing conditions are very difficult.

Some of these students choose to disclose their LDs because they can receive accommodations which allow them to equitably take standardized tests and perform to the best of their abilities- this gives these testtakers no advantage over students without LDs- it simply removes their DISADVANTAGE.

However.

Many students rightly assume that LD is looked upon by the elite academic community with a stigma that potentially hurts them more than a low test score would, so they choose to fight it out and take the exam anyway.

There are more of these students than you think there are. High scoring students ignorantly assume that all students who score low do so because of lack of preparation, skill, or inferiority.

Documented learning disability rarely earns a first, much less second thought.

So much for the LSAT as an explanation for why no smart kids are forced to go to t4s.

What about GPA? What's the excuse for that?

Well, what is the excuse?

What in a person's undergrad career could possibly cause them to falter in their grades? Let's see. It could be a variety of different factors. The trauma of a personal assault. The death of a close family member. The diagnosis of a serious illness. A father who is sent to prison. Any or all of these things. Suppose one of these stressful circumstances were to occur but the child should choose to continue to attend school rather than face the full impact of these terrible events. Their grades will suffer. It is the child's own choice. You may feel free to blame them. But you may also feel like a little bit of an asshole calling them lazy, especially when they're struggling through all of this at an Ivy league and you're praising a kid who's earning straight As at what you would consider a TTT undergrad.

So it's 5 or six years later and the kid has grown up and wants to get past whatever bad stuff kept him down in undergrad, and fulfill his full potential, the hard work and brains that got him into that Ivy school in the first place. He applies to law school.

The LD holds him down pretty hard, and his LSAT score is flat out bad. He decides that to disclose his LD along with his GPA would be one two many indicators that he couldn't handle schoolwork, despite his stellar grad school performance. He was pretty disheartened when he realized that working his ass off to get his masters didn't account for shit in his law school application.

So what he had to present was a terrible UGPA, a terrible LSAT score, a great grad gpa, a decent resume, glowing letters of recommendation, and the realization that the only two factors that matter are the UGPA and the LSAT score.

Of course the kid is only going to get into a tier 4.

Whether or not you think the kid deserves a chance to prove himself, he's probably smarter than most of the kids at most of the schools above him, he has four years more work and life experience than most of them, he's been through a hell of a lot of shit to get where he is, but none of it is the type of stuff you can write about in an essay that law schools like to read about. No one wants to read about surviving a rape or seeing your brother get shot or dealing with a severe anxiety disorder or a family member being put on trial for a violent crime.

This kid is going to law school because he has every right to go to law school, and he's going to a tier 4 because in his circumstances, no other school is going to give him a chance.

He's not an idiot, but he can't go back in time and do his undergrad when his world wasn't falling apart around him.

He's not stupid, but he can't take the LSAT without accommodations and score within a range that reflects his capabilities.

It just works out that way for him.

I'm sorry.

I just feel very strongly about this. GO to law school. If you only get into a t4, go to a t4. If you get into a t3, go to a t3. If you get into a t2, go to a t2.

But if the only school willing to recognize that not every student is the average student, that there are no special circumstances, that nothing goes horribly wrong sometimes and that most importantly because this none of the rest matters if this does not hold true

STUDENTS DO NOT DESERVE A SECOND CHANCE TO PROVE THEMSELVES

then damn, kid, go to the t4 school.

Go, kick ass, transfer up if you can, work your way up in the world, and tell anyone who encourages you to quit to go to hell.

For the love of god, do not quit.

I'm sorry, I've just read one too many of these posts today.


+1000!

And there are bright people at ALL law schools. At what point is this all going to end? Medical education is not like this. Great med schools are well regarded, but unknown schools aren't necessarily frowned upon, as long as they don't come from a matchbook cover. Dental schools don't have this type of elitism. Architecture schools? Nope. Why law?

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Z'Barron
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Z'Barron » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:08 am

TonyDigital wrote:
Dwaterman86 wrote:
TonyDigital wrote:And that's why I said that ^. If you're going into any situation with a defeatist attitude...most likely you'll be defeated. That has more to do with the person than the school imo...that's the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying going to a T4 is a great choice...but I guess I'd have to really know what your other choices are to determine which is the better choice. The question by OP is too vague.

I would disagree with that statement. It goes deeper than just attitude. Tier 4 law schools are almost always really bad choices. Exceptions would be if you can come out with very minimal debt AND you have a realistic view of the type of job prospects you can expect.

There is a congressman who went to Cooley,the mayor of LA went to People's College of law. That doesn't speak anything as to the prospects of those schools though. Tier 4 law schools graduate hundreds of people every year, some are bound to be successful. That really only speaks to the power of large numbers, and not what someone can reasonably expect to achieve with that education.


I don't think we're actually arguing different points here as I agree with what you just said. I guess we're looking at it from glass half empty/half full points of views. Going to a T4 the odds are against you compared to the competition. And if that dissuades a person from attending law school then that person probably would've been one of the ones that wouldn't succeed. IMO moreso because of that persons attitude and personality than the school they went to.

I would love to go to a top school...but if I don't get into one I'm going to go to the school that gives me the best opportunities in the cities I want to live in. I'm confident in myself. I'm a non-trad and have years of work experience to give me tangible reasons to be confident in my abilities. Maybe I'm rare. But to blame ones failures (or future failures) on a school is a cop out if you ask me. Those people need to look in the mirror and start assigning some blame imo.


Most law grads are not successful in my eyes. Some are deemed more employable, but I have met more farts from top schools lately than i can ever handle in a lifetime. I am convinced that there's little quality difference between students from Penn and students from, say, Akron. Laugh if you want to, but that's what i believe. I watched a University of Washington graduate (top of his class) screw up a really basic case by going into court unprepared. And he knew what to expect b/c he was briefed on a specific point. The a recent Penn grad from Perkins Coie (a top 100 firm) damn near pissed his pants on the same case (handling the appeal). They both got smoked by a Kansas graduate who just knew what he was doing. The bullshit elitism has to stop.
Last edited by Z'Barron on Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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You Gotta Have Faith
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby You Gotta Have Faith » Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:43 am

Z'Barron wrote:+1000!

And there are bright people at ALL law schools. At what point is this all going to end? Medical education is not like this. Great med schools are well regarded, but unknown schools aren't necessarily frowned upon, as long as they don't come from a matchbook cover. Dental schools don't have this type of elitism. Architecture schools? Nope. Why law?


The only thing I will say about this is that the dental school you go to does not largely affect what you need to do to get your career going once graduated. There are only about 50+ dental schools, and most people just go to whichever one(s) they get into on a location preference.

Regarding medical schools, it isn't quite as important where you end up going if you only want to do some sort of general practice (school + residency). But medical research is a slightly different story and has some degree of "tiers" apparent, though with a lower level of elitism than law appears to have. There WAS a level of minimal bias against those with a D.O. degree (as opposed to an M.D. degree) at one time, but this has waned greatly in recent years. Grades/school do matter to a degree in the medical field, especially if you want a hot-shot residency or fellowship, but not seemingly as much as it does in law.

Architecture schools? I don't know anything about those and won't act like I do. But I do think that there is a feasible reason for the slightly higher degree of so-called "elitism" in law school:

The school you go to, as well as your class rank, actually does impact the ease with which you move your career forward in the beginning. Even though it IS possible to do well with any school if someone handles their career right, this is something to definitely take into account.

I'm not saying the "elitism" is right, but that's why it exists.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:00 am

Z'Barron wrote:
lyricsoprano wrote:
Z'Barron wrote:
biv0ns wrote:How do you go from Harvard and Yale to T4? Whatever happened to 3-100? T3 even? As someone said, there are many schools between those that you listed.


I think OP just used an extreme example to illustrate a generality. The other schools are redundant. We can cut OP some slack. :wink:
The OP also said this:
specifically Nova Southeastern University (just using that as an example)
He contradicts himself there, saying that he is "specifically" talking about that school, and yet he's only using it as an example. I just took "specifically" and ran with it :)


This is why I tend to answer "inference" questions with a high degree of accuracy. OP did slightly contradict himself and could have avoided this by excluding the word "specifically" in a sentence with "for example". But the inference is that he's juxtaposing highly ranked "name' schools with TTTT schools. Nothing more. I took his very negligible error, made my inference, and cut OP some slack.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

D you make an effort to come across as a douchebag or does it just come naturally for you?

Edit: To answer the OP- If you will be going into heavy debt in order to attend a T4, I would consider that a very, very risky decision. I would imagine life not being the best after graduation if you are not able to find a legal job and you are drowning in debt as a reward for the effort you have put forth for the last 3 years. Consider cheap law school options, consider a different profession, or just consider retaking the LSAT and putting yourself in a much better position to succeed.

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wendyone
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby wendyone » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:14 am

You Gotta Have Faith wrote:But I do think that there is a feasible reason for the slightly higher degree of so-called "elitism" in law school:

The school you go to, as well as your class rank, actually does impact the ease with which you move your career forward in the beginning. Even though it IS possible to do well with any school if someone handles their career right, this is something to definitely take into account.

I'm not saying the "elitism" is right, but that's why it exists.


You're absolutely right. The only catch there is that the fact that it's difficult to advance without a name IS the elitism (or largely the impetus for it). So it's something of a self-defined concept.

A catch-22 of sorts.

But your conclusion is the point- that "ceiling" DOES exist, and though (I believe) it's possible to break through the ceiling, it's not possible without a very realistic perspective of the odds you decide to go up against.

And you gotta have faith. Couldn't help it. :D I so have that song in my head now.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby cameronfraser88 » Mon Jun 15, 2009 2:48 am

wendyone wrote:
cameronfraser88 wrote:
First of all the test isn't 8 hours long. You don't have time to stand or stretch when needed because most people need the entire time they are taking the test. I'm not saying they should be denied equitable educational opportunities, I'm just saying they shouldn't be held to a different standard than everyone for a disorders that constitute the most common mis diagnosis's out there. Do you realize how easy it is for someone to go to a doctor and convince them within 20 minutes they have a LD? If LSAC accommodated that then I guarantee there would be a lot of individuals with LD all of the sudden.


First of all- LSAC does accommodate them. They have to by law. It's right there on the website. You have to provide documentation, of course. My proposal is that many students don't want law schools to know they have LD because of the stigma attached.

It's not holding someone to a different standard to provide reasonable accommodations. That's the whole point of the Americans With Disabilities Act. That it is NOT providing an advantage.

And you're confusing "equitable" with "equal".

I do see your point, because it's very difficult to understand an invisible disability. People have a very hard time accepting that they are legit.

I would put forth, however, that any doctor who is convinced within 20 minutes that a patient has an LD should be disbarred. To be properly diagnosed for the purposes of accommodations a student has to go through a battery of tests, and they're not generally the sort of tests you can "fake out" of, because they include complex IQ tests that assess different neuro-cognitive functions.

Clearly I'm not talking about a 6 year old on an IEP.

But at an advanced level of education in which a student requested reasonable accommodations of this nature, this would be appropriate.

(I hold masters degree in education specializing in students with special needs. I'm not by any means trying to claim this as a means of expertise, but perhaps it explains why I have a stake in the educational system and the provisions for students with disabilities.)


What kind of LD's are we talking about.

BTW Yes LSAC does accommodate LD's but here is the catch:

"Candidates who seek additional test time on scored sections of the test should pay particular attention to the following:

* If you receive additional test time as an accommodation for your condition, LSAC will send a statement with your Credential Assembly Service (LSDAS) or LSAT Law School Reports advising that your score(s) should be interpreted with great sensitivity and flexibility."

From what I know this sends a red flag to adcomms.

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wendyone
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby wendyone » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:25 am

cameronfraser88 wrote:
BTW Yes LSAC does accommodate LD's but here is the catch:

"Candidates who seek additional test time on scored sections of the test should pay particular attention to the following:

* If you receive additional test time as an accommodation for your condition, LSAC will send a statement with your Credential Assembly Service (LSDAS) or LSAT Law School Reports advising that your score(s) should be interpreted with great sensitivity and flexibility."

From what I know this sends a red flag to adcomms.


It does. That is why I mentioned that so many students refuse to seek accommodations even though their scores will suffer. Ex: ld: ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, other cognitive processing disorders such as visual processing and sensory integration. But this thread isn't about testing accommodations, so I'm all for setting it down. Or discussing it elsewhere- but this hardly helps the OP :wink:

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blackacre
Posts: 82
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby blackacre » Mon Jun 15, 2009 3:54 am

wendyone wrote:
cameronfraser88 wrote:
BTW Yes LSAC does accommodate LD's but here is the catch:

"Candidates who seek additional test time on scored sections of the test should pay particular attention to the following:

* If you receive additional test time as an accommodation for your condition, LSAC will send a statement with your Credential Assembly Service (LSDAS) or LSAT Law School Reports advising that your score(s) should be interpreted with great sensitivity and flexibility."

From what I know this sends a red flag to adcomms.


It does. That is why I mentioned that so many students refuse to seek accommodations even though their scores will suffer. Ex: ld: ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, other cognitive processing disorders such as visual processing and sensory integration. But this thread isn't about testing accommodations, so I'm all for setting it down. Or discussing it elsewhere- but this hardly helps the OP :wink:


Jeeezus... This forum just breeds overbearing females... I honestly see a new "queen bee" on these forums every week with 20 posts a day. Don't you have anything better to do than post on a forum trying to prove people wrong? You, pearlegal, and Ddoll make me feel there is a street corner missing you with a cardboard sign with catchy sayings on it.

To the OP... It really isn't worth it to go to a law school that isn't at least in the T100. It is just too big of a gamble to take. Even if you have an irreversible GPA, the LSAT is something you can work on and is the most important thing in getting into law school.

Sure you can go eat at a restaurant that isn't approved by the health board. There's a possibility that you might even eat good food AND leave without food poisoning. But why risk it? Go to the restaurant with the good reputation and is certified by the health board as being a good choice to eat.

Going to a lower ranked school is normally much more expensive with less chance of meaningful employment. You could really save 30-50K by going to a better school. If someone where to pay you 30K to study harder and score better on the LSAT, how could you turn that down?

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wendyone
Posts: 19
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby wendyone » Mon Jun 15, 2009 4:11 am

blackacre wrote:
wendyone wrote:
cameronfraser88 wrote:
BTW Yes LSAC does accommodate LD's but here is the catch:

"Candidates who seek additional test time on scored sections of the test should pay particular attention to the following:

* If you receive additional test time as an accommodation for your condition, LSAC will send a statement with your Credential Assembly Service (LSDAS) or LSAT Law School Reports advising that your score(s) should be interpreted with great sensitivity and flexibility."

From what I know this sends a red flag to adcomms.


It does. That is why I mentioned that so many students refuse to seek accommodations even though their scores will suffer. Ex: ld: ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, other cognitive processing disorders such as visual processing and sensory integration. But this thread isn't about testing accommodations, so I'm all for setting it down. Or discussing it elsewhere- but this hardly helps the OP :wink:


Jeeezus... This forum just breeds overbearing females... I honestly see a new "queen bee" on these forums every week with 20 posts a day. Don't you have anything better to do than post on a forum trying to prove people wrong? You, pearlegal, and Ddoll make me feel there is a street corner missing you with a cardboard sign with catchy sayings on it.

To the OP... It really isn't worth it to go to a law school that isn't at least in the T100. It is just too big of a gamble to take. Even if you have an irreversible GPA, the LSAT is something you can work on and is the most important thing in getting into law school.

Sure you can go eat at a restaurant that isn't approved by the health board. There's a possibility that you might even eat good food AND leave without food poisoning. But why risk it? Go to the restaurant with the good reputation and is certified by the health board as being a good choice to eat.

Going to a lower ranked school is normally much more expensive with less chance of meaningful employment. You could really save 30-50K by going to a better school. If someone where to pay you 30K to study harder and score better on the LSAT, how could you turn that down?


You flatter me. :oops:

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Cara
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 9:07 am

Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Cara » Mon Jun 15, 2009 5:38 am

TonyDigital wrote:And if that dissuades a person from attending law school then that person probably would've been one of the ones that wouldn't succeed. IMO moreso because of that persons attitude and personality than the school they went to.


Usually the options aren't go to a T4 or not go to LS at all. It usually only takes a few points improvement on the LSAT for people to be able to avoid the T3 and T4 schools entirely.

If your theory holds true then the extremely poor employment outcomes for grads of T4 schools must be due to the attitude and personality of the people going there? It can't just be because of the poor reputation of the school in the legal community leading to very few firms recruiting there?

TonyDigital wrote:But to blame ones failures (or future failures) on a school is a cop out if you ask me. Those people need to look in the mirror and start assigning some blame imo.


So assuming equal determination and good attitude of the student body graduates of all schools should do equally well? The vast difference between T4 employment outcomes and the T14 must be a result of poorer attitude by the T4 students? They should be blaming themselves because 15 firms attend their school's OCI versus 600 for Columbia's? They should blame themselves because the average salary for all graduates from their school is $45K instead of $155K?

I'm just as keen on taking responsibility for oneself and working hard as the next person. But there are competitions you enter where the odds are stacked against you from the outset and very few people can succeed. Going to a T4 is one of those competitions. You are taking on an enormous debt load in exchange for very poor prospects. That's got nothing to do with the grit and determination of the students. It's got everything to do with how the market for recruiting new lawyers works.

That's why I would implore people who don't have good law school options but who want to become a lawyer above all else to look at their LSAT and consider a retake if at all possible. Yes it's a hassle and wastes a few more months of your life but the time you spend working on that retake could be the best investment of your life.




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