How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

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jcwilsn1
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby jcwilsn1 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:45 pm

I actually posted a couple comments on his blog which quickly got removed. thank goodness he shows the same transparency that he wants USNWR to show!

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General Tso
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby General Tso » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:21 pm

those guys are hacks. just ignore them...there's no possibility of either side winning an argument

articulably suspect
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:52 pm

jcwilsn1 wrote:I actually posted a couple comments on his blog which quickly got removed. thank goodness he shows the same transparency that he wants USNWR to show!


HAHA

articulably suspect
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:14 pm

I really don't understand what these people stand to gain from this altruistic endeavor. I feel like a lot of people like that poster Shelly's Case who make huge sweeping generalizations about all schools, regions, jobs, etc. In her case, seriously we get it, going to Seton, BLS, NYLS, etc is a bad idea because they don't have much of a reach outside of the NYC area which is heavily saturated, no shit. This doesn't apply to every T2ish school or even some T3 schools(no not just the ones in states like Idaho) all over the country and the job opportunities available to those who attend them. She/he never answered why they decided to go to said school or whether she/he knew what was instore.

Main point is that people on here have a pretty good grasp on which schools are going to ruin you or leave you with less than desirable options upon graduation. Most people on here will say "hey congrats on Cardozo, but (insert harsh reality here) and if that doesn't bother you well good luck hope you are at the top of your class." The point is that going in, most people on TLS way the risks, do the research, and make a decision.

People going to T3/4 schools usually already understand the risks and are going to attend regardless of what some annonymous poster who is a bitter ls or lawyer says. Odds are this person knows more lawyers (who didn't graduate from a T14) who are completely content with their work/career decision then they do lawyers like Solo and Shelly. In such a case, they'll most likely take the advice of their close friends, relatives, coworkers and acquaintences in law over random posters.

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leobowski
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby leobowski » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:13 am

solo_lawyer wrote:do not go to law school at all unless
1) you get into a top 20-25 ranked school
or
2) you could have gotten into a top 20 school but went elsewhere for a scholarship
or
3)your daddy is a lawyer who will hire you



Serious question: what good does it do to discourage those who matriculate outside the T25 on a site like this? Do you honestly believe you're helping the legal profession with doom-and-gloom forecasts for people who care enough about law school to register/post on sites like this? Those seats will be filled one way or the other, perhaps it's better they are filled by type-A obsessive personalities like myself who compile spreadsheets on their own time.

That was kind of a rant, but I hope you get the gist. I don't support the rampant T14/T20 or bust mentality infesting these boards. I had lunch with the hiring partner of a mid-size Seattle litigation/defense firm yesterday and none of the shareholders I met discouraged me against attending a lower-ranked school for nearly free.

lawhead
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lawhead » Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:41 am

It could not be more obvious as to why someone would discourage anyone from attending any law school. Only the same war strategy that also affects organizations - divide and conquer.

jtgain
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby jtgain » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:26 am

ejjones wrote:
People going to T3/4 schools usually already understand the risks and are going to attend regardless of what some annonymous poster who is a bitter ls or lawyer says. Odds are this person knows more lawyers (who didn't graduate from a T14) who are completely content with their work/career decision then they do lawyers like Solo and Shelly. In such a case, they'll most likely take the advice of their close friends, relatives, coworkers and acquaintences in law over random posters.


So, I guess we have come full circle back to my OP.

I understand that to clerk for Justice Kennedy or get a job in BigBigLaw you need Yale or Stanford after your name. Understood.

But if you are content with being Joe the Lawyer, doing wills, criminal matters, small torts, working for medium-sized companies, etc. in Podunk, Arkanbraskaginia, then is T4 such a bad thing? In other words, will it serve your purpose, or is it just an absolute scam that will leave you flipping hamburgers with $200k of debt after graduation?

awesomepossum
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby awesomepossum » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:30 am

Considering that many lower tier schools are almost as expensive and just as time consuming as top 10/20 schools:



or is it just an absolute scam that will leave you flipping hamburgers with $200k of debt after graduation?





this. especially in an economy like we have now.

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homestyle28
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby homestyle28 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:45 am

Take this for what it's worth...I'm getting a Master's degree in Ohio at a school situated in a pretty rural county. EVERY lawyer that works in this town went to TTT and below. Now, none of them are rich, but plenty are doing fine by this regions standards (well, by this regions standards many are rich). 1 common pleas court judge went to duke, the rest all regional TTT's in ohio. Moreover, the most recent hires in this county also come from TTT's and below, all in Ohio. So the manic theme of T-25 or life at McDonald's seems clearly overblown. I'm sure we all realize that most TLS'ers have higher aspirations than being a county prosecutor or defense atty in small town ohio, but clearly there is still a market out there for those who are either willing to work it, or desire it.

I just get a little tired of the "there's just no jobs for lawyers" talk.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:29 am

homestyle28 wrote:Take this for what it's worth...I'm getting a Master's degree in Ohio at a school situated in a pretty rural county. EVERY lawyer that works in this town went to TTT and below. Now, none of them are rich, but plenty are doing fine by this regions standards (well, by this regions standards many are rich). 1 common pleas court judge went to duke, the rest all regional TTT's in ohio. Moreover, the most recent hires in this county also come from TTT's and below, all in Ohio. So the manic theme of T-25 or life at McDonald's seems clearly overblown. I'm sure we all realize that most TLS'ers have higher aspirations than being a county prosecutor or defense atty in small town ohio, but clearly there is still a market out there for those who are either willing to work it, or desire it.

I just get a little tired of the "there's just no jobs for lawyers" talk.



This is true. But, 200k in debt + at least 7 years of school for a 50-60K salary is not in my opinion a good investment. There are a lot of people on TLS who are abrasive and over the top about the subject, but they overall point is not wrong. There is an oversupply of lawyers, you don't want to graduate at the bottom of the barrel. If you truly want to become a lawyer, and TTT is your only option, well in that case I would say go for it. Just realize, that if you are taking out massive loans, you are taking a huge risk. Remember 200k extended over 30 years is 1300 dollars per month.

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badfish
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby badfish » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:34 am

T4 is generally a very bad idea. I wouldn't do it.

oldtimernewname
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby oldtimernewname » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:39 am

I'm not sure where everyone gets this $150-200K debt business from ... not all T4s cost that much. Also, many posters are discounting the possibility of scholarships at T4. As someone who attends a T4 because it's where we're stationed, I was able to come in with a scholarship. I will say that I never dreamed of working in BigLaw, and I have always only wanted to get a government job (hopefully military) ... If you want BigLaw -- shoot for the stars with respect to rankings. If you're okay with a government job or you want to work in a particular region, and you can earn some sort of scholarship at a T4, I say do what's best for you. Realize that you're going to have to work really hard, and it might take longer to pay off your debt, but my priority was my happiness. A government job with a 9-5 schedule, great medical and a salary I can live on will make me happy.

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General Tso
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby General Tso » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:48 am

Which is a better investment: a CA-accredited school like Monterey College of Law @ 15k tuition or an ABA T4 like Golden Gate @ 40k tuition

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Helmholtz
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:52 am

I personally know five people who went to T3/T4 schools. One is a bitter old man who doesn't even do anything legal-related any more and makes fun of all the "poor saps" "stuck" in biglaw. He walks around in sweat suits and complains about life constantly. The second of them is a ~50 year old guy who is the managing partner for a small firm in a small town. He's got a BMW along with a newish convertible and SUV. He generally enjoys what he does and has great relationships with his clients. Another one of them is ~50 year old guy who is a lawyer at a small firm in a small town. He has a Lexis SUV, nice house, gets paid decently, and from what I can tell, enjoys what he does. The fourth one is a ~30 year old guy working in a small firm in a small town and is also an assistant prosecutor. I'm guessing he doesn't get paid a lot, but he gets to do trial work, which he really loves. The fifth one is a personal injury lawyer at a mid-sized firm in a big town. He's around ~30 years old, gets paid alright, and gets to do trial work, which he really loves doing as well.

Really, some people go to T4 school, work at a smaller or mid-sized firm and love what they do. Some don't. I think the biggest things are to have realistic expectations and to avoid debt.

oldtimernewname
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby oldtimernewname » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:55 am

Which is a better investment: a CA-accredited school like Monterey College of Law @ 15k tuition or an ABA T4 like Golden Gate @ 40k tuition


I'd always pick the one accredited by the ABA. That's just me. Not sure what everyone else will have to say.

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Helmholtz
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:55 am

swheat wrote:Which is a better investment: a CA-accredited school like Monterey College of Law @ 15k tuition or an ABA T4 like Golden Gate @ 40k tuition


This is sort of like asking if you'd rather shoot your mother or your father. For most people, it's going to be wise to just avoid that situation.

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General Tso
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby General Tso » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:57 am

Helmholtz wrote:
swheat wrote:Which is a better investment: a CA-accredited school like Monterey College of Law @ 15k tuition or an ABA T4 like Golden Gate @ 40k tuition


This is sort of like asking if you'd rather shoot your mother or your father. For most people, it's going to be wise to just avoid that situation.


No cop-outs....Let's pretend someone has a gun to your head and says "you must choose one of these 2 schools and you must pay full price"

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Helmholtz
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:59 am

swheat wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
swheat wrote:Which is a better investment: a CA-accredited school like Monterey College of Law @ 15k tuition or an ABA T4 like Golden Gate @ 40k tuition


This is sort of like asking if you'd rather shoot your mother or your father. For most people, it's going to be wise to just avoid that situation.


No cop-outs....Let's pretend someone has a gun to your head and says "you must choose one of these 2 schools and you must pay full price"


I would probably go with Monterey.

awesomepossum
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby awesomepossum » Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:59 am

swheat wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
swheat wrote:Which is a better investment: a CA-accredited school like Monterey College of Law @ 15k tuition or an ABA T4 like Golden Gate @ 40k tuition


This is sort of like asking if you'd rather shoot your mother or your father. For most people, it's going to be wise to just avoid that situation.


No cop-outs....Let's pretend someone has a gun to your head and says "you must choose one of these 2 schools and you must pay full price"



I'd probably say just shoot me.

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Helmholtz
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:01 pm

awesomepossum wrote:
swheat wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
swheat wrote:Which is a better investment: a CA-accredited school like Monterey College of Law @ 15k tuition or an ABA T4 like Golden Gate @ 40k tuition


This is sort of like asking if you'd rather shoot your mother or your father. For most people, it's going to be wise to just avoid that situation.


No cop-outs....Let's pretend someone has a gun to your head and says "you must choose one of these 2 schools and you must pay full price"



I'd probably say just shoot me.


touché

articulably suspect
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:13 pm

awesomepossum wrote:Considering that many lower tier schools are almost as expensive and just as time consuming as top 10/20 schools:



or is it just an absolute scam that will leave you flipping hamburgers with $200k of debt after graduation?





this. especially in an economy like we have now.


I understand all the fear and trepidation surrounding ls given the economy's condition, but are we expecting everything to be this bad in four years? I understand that things could stay the same over the next four years, but can't we just as easily assume that things will look better? Right now it is near impossible to get a govt job(on all levels), but I don't think anyone expects all levels of govt to have hiring freezes and fuloughs in four years. Everyone talks about right now, shouldn't we be more concerned with four years from now?

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Helmholtz
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Helmholtz » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:15 pm

ejjones wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:Considering that many lower tier schools are almost as expensive and just as time consuming as top 10/20 schools:



or is it just an absolute scam that will leave you flipping hamburgers with $200k of debt after graduation?





this. especially in an economy like we have now.


I understand all the fear and trepidation surrounding ls given the economy's condition, but are we expecting everything to be this bad in four years? I understand that things could stay the same over the next four years, but can't we just as easily assume that things will look better? Right now it is near impossible to get a govt job(on all levels), but I don't think anyone expects all levels of govt to have hiring freezes and fuloughs in four years. Everyone talks about right now, shouldn't we be more concerned with four years from now?


OCI isn't going to be four years away and I don't think anybody really knows what it's going to look like in 2013.

articulably suspect
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:21 pm

homestyle28 wrote:Take this for what it's worth...I'm getting a Master's degree in Ohio at a school situated in a pretty rural county. EVERY lawyer that works in this town went to TTT and below. Now, none of them are rich, but plenty are doing fine by this regions standards (well, by this regions standards many are rich). 1 common pleas court judge went to duke, the rest all regional TTT's in ohio. Moreover, the most recent hires in this county also come from TTT's and below, all in Ohio. So the manic theme of T-25 or life at McDonald's seems clearly overblown. I'm sure we all realize that most TLS'ers have higher aspirations than being a county prosecutor or defense atty in small town ohio, but clearly there is still a market out there for those who are either willing to work it, or desire it.

I just get a little tired of the "there's just no jobs for lawyers" talk.


I agree with you here hstyle. I don't deny that there are a lot of T2/3/4 schools that aren't a good idea, but where I'm from non rural CA, the vast majority of lawyers I know and worked with went to T2/3/4 and even several non-ABA schools. Like you I can only speak for my experience in the field and those lawyers that I'm friends with. Maybe they all just got really lucky. Yeah at the govt level they start out at 50-60K, but in 4 years that number is close to 100K, not freakishly high but not terrible. Assuming that one does attend a lower ranked school w/out receiving money, if that person enters the public sector many schools do have LRAP, so it's not exactly quite as bad as some make it out to be.

articulably suspect
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:25 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
ejjones wrote:
awesomepossum wrote:Considering that many lower tier schools are almost as expensive and just as time consuming as top 10/20 schools:



or is it just an absolute scam that will leave you flipping hamburgers with $200k of debt after graduation?





this. especially in an economy like we have now.


I understand all the fear and trepidation surrounding ls given the economy's condition, but are we expecting everything to be this bad in four years? I understand that things could stay the same over the next four years, but can't we just as easily assume that things will look better? Right now it is near impossible to get a govt job(on all levels), but I don't think anyone expects all levels of govt to have hiring freezes and fuloughs in four years. Everyone talks about right now, shouldn't we be more concerned with four years from now?


OCI isn't going to be four years away and I don't think anybody really knows what it's going to look like in 2013.


True, but this doesn't mean that other opportunities, for those of us who have no interest in Biglaw, can't look forward to a turnaround in govt/non=profit prospects in four years. The clinical programs and internships, although not always paying, still can help you get your foot in the door at various govt agencies and pi's

articulably suspect
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Thu Aug 06, 2009 5:29 pm

swheat wrote:Which is a better investment: a CA-accredited school like Monterey College of Law @ 15k tuition or an ABA T4 like Golden Gate @ 40k tuition


Almost everyone on here will state that attending a non-aba school is a terrible idea. The office I worked at had about 6-7 attorney's who went to a CBA school (7.5K/year), most of which seem to have no regret in making this decision. This is in N. CA(not in the middle on nowhere). Two DA's in the surrounding counties, one which is quite large, also went to this school. I know of a couple of private practice attorney's that went to CBA schools as well. Not one that I've talked to seems to hate life or their career.

I'm not advocating for CBA schools, rahter simply stating the facts based on the lawyers I worked with over the years in N. CA. My take on the people that I know who chose this school, passed the bar the first time and got jobs, is that they probably could have went to a T2 or even a T1 school and done just fine. For whatever reason, be it family, existing job, finance, etc, they chose this very inexpensive option, knowing that they weren't going to end up at a big firm. I also think that if you have an in somewhere, which two of them did, than it's a great option. If you're workingover those 4 yrs you'll end up with virtually nothing in debt, and if you get the type of govt jobs they got, start out making 55k or so a year. That's not such a bad deal.

That said, these schools let in everyone, which means a lot fail out, don't graduate or never pass the bar. These people probably never had the chops for ls in the first place and that plays a large roll in the poor numbers coming out of the3se schools, or at least the schools I'm referring to.




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