How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

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Always Credited
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Always Credited » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:30 pm

If they're incapable of making the simple, obvious decision of whether their circumstances warrant a T4 attendance, then it shouldn't be terribly difficult to outsmart them over the difficult decisions. 8)

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GATORTIM
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby GATORTIM » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:41 pm

Always Credited wrote:If they're incapable of making the simple, obvious decision of whether their circumstances warrant a T4 attendance, then it shouldn't be terribly difficult to outsmart them over the difficult decisions. 8)


It's those types of generalizations that will lead to your downfall

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Always Credited
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Always Credited » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:44 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
Always Credited wrote:If they're incapable of making the simple, obvious decision of whether their circumstances warrant a T4 attendance, then it shouldn't be terribly difficult to outsmart them over the difficult decisions. 8)


It's those types of generalizations that will lead to your downfall


Only if the majority of bad decision makers are not only intelligent and devoted students, but stellar lawyers as well. Something, however, tells me this is not the case.

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GATORTIM
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby GATORTIM » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:48 pm

Always Credited wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:
Always Credited wrote:If they're incapable of making the simple, obvious decision of whether their circumstances warrant a T4 attendance, then it shouldn't be terribly difficult to outsmart them over the difficult decisions. 8)


It's those types of generalizations that will lead to your downfall


Only if SOME of bad decision makers are not only intelligent and devoted students, but stellar lawyers as well. Something, however, tells me this is not the case.


Edit to appease our fellow LSATateers that would likely take issue with the loose verbage/logic of your post :roll:

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SoxyPirate
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby SoxyPirate » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:50 pm

Mark71121 wrote:public defender in mississippi. way to aim high


Come on now. It's one thing to insult someone making a terrible choice (like T4 at sticker)...

It's another to start bashing a perfectly legitimate/respectable career.

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sentinal5656
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby sentinal5656 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:57 pm

wendyone wrote:Sorry, kid, but an investment is worth exactly as much as the investor, no more and no less. It's exactly this sort of ignorant attitude that keeps the output from tier one schools mediocre.

Too many intelligent, capable people get frightened or bullied out of even trying because they didn't coast in on easy street.



Some people on this forum can be harsh and can be D-bags. But the point is that their advice is not wrong. If you dont have a hefty scholarship at a T4 school or rich parents, then it is not a good investment at all. No matter how much you want to go to law school, it is a bad move. Even if your desire is to be a lawyer and fullfill ur life goal, you still should not attend becuase its not worth getting in all that debt. Yes, this argument assumes that nobody wants to get into life crippling debt, but I mean cmon, do I really have to spell that out? Apparently, I do. The reason the advice is warranted is becuase many T4 schools point a picture that is decieving to the incoming 0L. That is why the advice is warranted as well as your rant.

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Always Credited
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Always Credited » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:03 pm

GATORTIM wrote:
Always Credited wrote:
GATORTIM wrote:
Always Credited wrote:If they're incapable of making the simple, obvious decision of whether their circumstances warrant a T4 attendance, then it shouldn't be terribly difficult to outsmart them over the difficult decisions. 8)


It's those types of generalizations that will lead to your downfall


Only if SOME of bad decision makers are not only intelligent and devoted students, but stellar lawyers as well. Something, however, tells me this is not the case.


Edit to appease our fellow LSATateers that would likely take issue with the loose verbage/logic of your post :roll:


Thank you for trying, but I prefer to think it would take the 'majority' of students/job applicants beating me out rather than only 'some' to cause the downfall you alluded to. But really, either way. Either way is fine.

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A'nold
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:11 pm

I really can't believe we are having this conversation or I am at least shocked that people can't just let people with different goals be content. If you want biglaw, midlaw, prestigous gov. work, a great clerkship at the federal level, academia, etc. at t4 is a horribly stupid idea, especially at sticker. If you are going to John Marshall in Chicago without a substantial scholly with the plan of living it up as a biglaw lawyer in some sex in the city kind of life, then you are dellusional and are making the biggest mistake of your life. If you want to be a local ADA in some town in Arkansas, go to UA-Fayetteville or UA-Little Rock and be happy because you made a good choice. Why do people have to want to get into biglaw, the ACLU, or clerk for the Supreme Court to be making the correct decision? I agree fully with the poster above that said I am giving awful advice if they take me to mean that Western State is a good idea at full-price for someone that just "wants to be a lawyer" or has even higher ambitions. If someone wants to work in Eastern Washington State and they get a substantial scholly to Gonzaga, by all means go and do not listen to the people in this thread that spout generalities as truth.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:27 pm

I agree with the above. Like I said yesterday, there's the world of ls/lawyering as portrayed by TLS posters and there's the world of ls/lawyering as practicing lawyer sees it. They are very different. TLS is heavliy biglaw oriented when it boils down to going to ls. Spend more time talking to lawyers practicing in the field(s) you're interested in and less time listenig to the blather on here from people who, fot the most part, aren't attending ls yet, haven't ever practiced, or don't have a lot of experience working in law firms, da, pd, pi, etc.

I know a lot of lawyers that went to T3/4 and non-ABA schools ( I can think of over a dozen), who are friends and coworkers, that are doing just fine. Perhaps they are the exception, but I happen top know quite a few and their ls/lawyering two cents if drastically different than that of TLS posters.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby AdCommie » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:29 pm

Why T4 though? Just retake the LSAT and go to a T3 at least (hint: still not a good idea).

Whatever doods, just go where you want to go. If it's ranked lower than the school I'm attending it probably won't come off of my plate anyway.

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A'nold
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:35 pm

AdCommie wrote:Why T4 though? Just retake the LSAT and go to a T3 at least (hint: still not a good idea).

Whatever doods, just go where you want to go. If it's ranked lower than the school I'm attending it probably won't come off of my plate anyway.


LOL, you obviously don't know what you are talking about, and I'm saying that with all due respect. I am passing up on a t1 school to go to a state t3. It makes sense for my life. Once you get out of the top 30 or so schools (loosely), schools become a lot more regional and it doesn't matter if you go to Villanova or the University of South Dakota if you want to land a job in South Florida. Sorry about your tiny pink t2 dude, but it means no more than does a t4 when looked at regionally.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:48 pm

Exactly, if you're not going to a nationally recognized school (ie T14/some T30 schools) your best bet is to go to the strongest regional school in the general geographic location you wish to practice in and pick the school in that region that'll give you the most money.

The majority of lawyers don't graduate from T14's. A few years out of school (exception probably Biglaw) no one really gives a shit where you went to school. Employeers/clients only care about your reputation as a competent and talented lawyer. Again have many family members, friends and coworkers who are lawyers and they rarely if ever mention ls or where they went to ls. It just seems to be a non issue once you've practiced a couple of years-no one seems to care and if you did bring up the fact that you went to Stanford ls your colleagues would think you're a d-bag.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:20 pm

A'nold wrote: Sorry about your tiny pink t2 dude, but it means no more than does a t4 when looked at regionally.


I'm sorry but this just isn't true at all, even within regions there is a level of respect for schools that varies. Look at UF vs. FAMU for instance if you want to work in Florida

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby rondemarino » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:28 pm

ejjones wrote:Exactly, if you're not going to a nationally recognized school (ie T14/some T30 schools) your best bet is to go to the strongest regional school in the general geographic location you wish to practice in and pick the school in that region that'll give you the most money.

The majority of lawyers don't graduate from T14's. A few years out of school (exception probably Biglaw) no one really gives a shit where you went to school. Employeers/clients only care about your reputation as a competent and talented lawyer. Again have many family members, friends and coworkers who are lawyers and they rarely if ever mention ls or where they went to ls. It just seems to be a non issue once you've practiced a couple of years-no one seems to care and if you did bring up the fact that you went to Stanford ls your colleagues would think you're a d-bag.


That's horribly naive. For people who have made a name for themselves in their profession, sure. But the fancy diploma opens more doors than people are willing to admit.

p.s: Just because its dick move to bring up one's diploma/schooling in the presence of co-workers doesn't mean it doesn't work on clients.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:50 pm

Opening doors right out of the ls gate, yes. As I said after a few years it matters much less. I don't see this as being naive, this is based on over three years experience working around lawyers of various capacities (again exception is Biglaw and your ls school does matter there). One's reputation ( talking about private practice b/c in govt work clients don't really have a choice which pd they get and ada's don't have clients) matters more. Word of mouth about how a lawyer really helped someone out who was in a bind will be brought before where the lawyer they're referring to went to ls. Again this is based on my real world experience in the legal field and the many conversations I've had with lawyers (again exception is Biglaw). Most of the lawyers I know don't even hang their degree on the wall.

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rondemarino
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby rondemarino » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:52 pm

ejjones wrote:Opening doors right out of the ls gate, yes. As I said after a few years it matters much less. I don't see this as being naive, this is based on over three years experience working around lawyers of various capacities (again exception is Biglaw and your ls school does matter there). One's reputation ( talking about private practice b/c in govt work clients don't really have a choice which pd they get and ada's don't have clients) matters more. Word of mouth about how a lawyer really helped someone out who was in a bind will be brought before where the lawyer they're referring to went to ls. Again this is based on my real world experience in the legal field and the many conversations I've had with lawyers (again exception is Biglaw). Most of the lawyers I know don't even hang their degree on the wall.


Fair enough.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby SoxyPirate » Wed Jul 01, 2009 6:53 pm

I think a lot of the confusion here results from talking past each other. We can all be a bit too absolute in our opinions/advice sometimes. With so much on the line, we might take the rhetoric a bit overboard at times.

I'll do my best to explain it the way I see it:

-Law school CAN be a good choice for MANY, even SOME T4 students.
-Law school CAN be a terrible choice for MANY, even SOME T1 students.
-We all have inflated opinions of our own work, accomplishments, and potential.
-Too many (perhaps most?) potential law students ARE naive and unrealistic about their prospects and the market that awaits them.
-In light of the above, the fact is there are MANY, MANY, MANY potential/current law students that are setting themselves up for failure by making an investment (in time, money, energy, foregone opportunities, etc.) that will leave them considerably worse off than if they had not gone to law school.
-The likelihood of you falling into the group above is increased drastically (if not exponentially) by attending a T4, in general, especially at 20+ grand a year.
-It's not unreasonable to think that we can make general/blanket statements about the value of a decision to attend any particular school (in any particular tier, at any particular price), while acknowledging it is often more wise for us to consider each applicant on a case by case basis.

As such, someone with a full ride to Campbell who wants to work in Raleigh where he has family connections to other Campbell grads is probably making a reasonable decision to attend a T4.

An English major from a TTT with low opportunity costs is probably making a reasonable decision to attend Oklahoma Law in-state sticker.

...and while sticker at Emory for someone below medians may be less terrible than sticker at Florida Coastal for someone above medians, both at pretty risky decisions.

Ultimately we would hope that everyone would have a firm grasp on what they're getting into and their job prospects after law school and that they'd be able to make those decisions based on their INDIVIDUAL preference for risk.

Unfortunately, I think that sometimes we're preaching to the choir here on TLS. I'd argue that TLS'ers are in the upper echelon of informed/realistic potential students.

Hopefully that will translate into better performance, better grades, and better job prospects, regardless of the school we attend.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:07 pm

I agree with the statement that T4/Non-ABA LS have higher attrition rates and lower bar passages. This is probably due to the low, if any admissions standards at said schools. However, if you're an intelligent person who did well in UG and on the LSAT, odds are that you're not attending the aformentioned schools b/c they're the only ones that accepted you, but rather made the "risky" decision based on financial convenience (ie scholarship money).

I guess my point is the T4 numbers look bad, but that has a lot to do with the people they admit (in some cases everyone that applies) and they might not have the chops for ls/lawyering. On the other hand someone who has the numbers to get into a 30-100 school would probably do just fine and assuming they don't want Biglaw, it's not such a risky move, expecially if they graduate with little debt.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 01, 2009 7:19 pm

adh07d wrote:
A'nold wrote: Sorry about your tiny pink t2 dude, but it means no more than does a t4 when looked at regionally.


I'm sorry but this just isn't true at all, even within regions there is a level of respect for schools that varies. Look at UF vs. FAMU for instance if you want to work in Florida


I am not talking about schools within the same region (why are people nitpicking my comments instead of infering here?). I am talking about Ole Miss for MS vs. Temple for MS. One is a t3 (oh noes!) and the other is close to a low t1/ high t2. Ole Miss crushes them in MS. If you are talking Duquesne vs. Temple for PA, then of course Temple wins.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Mr. Matlock » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:47 pm

Mark71121 wrote:public defender in mississippi. way to aim high

If only I had a bat to beat the douchetard out of you. Since no such bat exists, just go fuck yourself bitch.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby SoxyPirate » Wed Jul 01, 2009 8:59 pm

Mr. Matlock wrote:
Mark71121 wrote:public defender in mississippi. way to aim high

If only I had a bat to beat the douchetard out of you. Since no such bat exists, just go fuck yourself bitch.


My partner!

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby General Tso » Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:14 pm

A'nold wrote:
adh07d wrote:
A'nold wrote: Sorry about your tiny pink t2 dude, but it means no more than does a t4 when looked at regionally.


I'm sorry but this just isn't true at all, even within regions there is a level of respect for schools that varies. Look at UF vs. FAMU for instance if you want to work in Florida


I am not talking about schools within the same region (why are people nitpicking my comments instead of infering here?). I am talking about Ole Miss for MS vs. Temple for MS. One is a t3 (oh noes!) and the other is close to a low t1/ high t2. Ole Miss crushes them in MS. If you are talking Duquesne vs. Temple for PA, then of course Temple wins.


Surprisingly Ole Miss usually places 7-8% in NLJ250, compared to Loyola and USD getting around 5%. Pretty shameful for those 2 considering the huge CA market.

I don't think there are any Temple grads wanting to work in MS tho

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:09 am

A'nold wrote:
adh07d wrote:
A'nold wrote: Sorry about your tiny pink t2 dude, but it means no more than does a t4 when looked at regionally.


I'm sorry but this just isn't true at all, even within regions there is a level of respect for schools that varies. Look at UF vs. FAMU for instance if you want to work in Florida


I am not talking about schools within the same region (why are people nitpicking my comments instead of infering here?). I am talking about Ole Miss for MS vs. Temple for MS. One is a t3 (oh noes!) and the other is close to a low t1/ high t2. Ole Miss crushes them in MS. If you are talking Duquesne vs. Temple for PA, then of course Temple wins.


Ah, I see your point now, sorry.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby D. H2Oman » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:02 pm

A'nold wrote:
adh07d wrote:
A'nold wrote: Sorry about your tiny pink t2 dude, but it means no more than does a t4 when looked at regionally.


I'm sorry but this just isn't true at all, even within regions there is a level of respect for schools that varies. Look at UF vs. FAMU for instance if you want to work in Florida


I am not talking about schools within the same region (why are people nitpicking my comments instead of infering here?). I am talking about Ole Miss for MS vs. Temple for MS. One is a t3 (oh noes!) and the other is close to a low t1/ high t2. Ole Miss crushes them in MS. If you are talking Duquesne vs. Temple for PA, then of course Temple wins.



I see that Ole Miss keeps getting mentioned. Let's just make clear that Ole Miss is a T3, state school, not too expensive, and it has its own market. So yeah Ole Miss is not really a bad choice at all if you are looking for a job in Mississippi.

That being said, lets remember that there are about 60-70 T3/T4 law schools which don't have a market and aren't cheap. Taking out mega loans for these schools are horrible choices.

Best case scenario: End up high in your class (let's just say top 1/3, even though I think you need to be top 10%) Top 1/3, you can land an actually legal job making 50,000/year (again I think its less, but still) 50,000 per year is a very decent salary for most people. However, you went to at least SEVEN years of school.

Lets say you have 150,000K in loans. (likely for many)

10 year, monthly loan payment=$1750 per month (57,000 in total interest paid)
30 year, monthly loan payment=977 per month (202,000 in total interest paid)

Now imagine, if you never found legally employment at all.

A lot of people on the site are dicks when they talk about T4 law schools, but they are right to warn students off of these schools.

I think most people do not realize the reality of taking out this much money in loans.

articulably suspect
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby articulably suspect » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:31 pm

First of all if you want to go to a T4 there's a good chance that you'll end up with a lot of debt and make $40-50,000 a year. There's truth in this, but if you want to practice law and this is your only avenue and you're willing to take the "risks" of going to a T4 than I say go for it. Hell, if your state lets non-ABA school grads sit for the bar you may want to go that route. There's still a "risk", but you'll spend $7,500/yr according to the school I looked at in my area. Also, hopefully you have a decent gpa/lsat so you can get a scholly, at which point the "risk" goes down some.

Here's something I've failed to see someone comment on here, since I started posting. The cost of most 50-100, T3, and T4 schools is relatively the same isn't it. For example, USF (San Fran) is $36,000 ranked 98th, Golden Gate (T3) is $32,000 and California Western T4 $34,000.

Now if one wanted to work in pi, pd, da, etc, than you'll be making roughly the same salary right out of the gate $40,000-65,000 in my region. So, I'm curious to see what the employment prospects are between these three in relation to these jobs (non-private) becuase the debt is going to be virtually identical, unless one gets a scholarship at the T3/T4, at which point the more desireable decision may be to take the less expensive path if you're going to end up in pi/govt anyway. If the end goal is Biglaw or private practice than your best bet is to get into the highest ranking school. However, if your intention is to work in the public sector than it may be in your best interest to go to the school that will leave you with little debt.

One more thing, people throw around the entry level salary for public sector attorney's (usually somewhere between $35-55,000) when referring to loan repayment, but you must factor in the fact that your salary is going to increase and you're not going to be stuck at $50,000 for the first five years. For example: for pd/da jobs I looked up attny 1 starts at $55-66,000. Usually, although times are tough right now, that person gets bumped up to attny 2 within a year make close to $80,000. They top out at around $140,000 which can be done within 10 yrs, based on what I've seen working at one of these agencies. I'm referring to a mid-sized CA County So the loan repayments will begin to look less grim as your career progresses.

Also, all this data can be looked up because it's public record. Here's a link to Santa Clara County's Salary info, which is higher (Attny V make over $200,000): --LinkRemoved--




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