How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

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lsat160plus
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lsat160plus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:09 am

Ok folks I found a new home - apparently the law schools have blogs:

Widener (PA):
http://law.widener.edu/NewsandEvents/Blogs.aspx

Penn State (PA):
http://www.dsl.psu.edu/journals/index.cfm


I think I need to read up and return to the issue. I thank you for your posts and will consider the reputation issue. Sounds like it carries a lot of weight, even in regional placement.

But sleep is now urgent.
Good night to all and to all, a good night!

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Attucks
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Attucks » Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:29 am

art vandelay wrote:
Attucks wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Going to a T4 ITE is about as a good an investment as giving money to Nigerian princes online.


Because just finding a job fresh out of undergrad ITE is a MUCH better idea. Just go to the T4 with that scholly, come out with less debt than most, graduate in the top 10%, do what you have to do to succeed on your own terms and forget the rest.


Aaaaand here we go. "Just... graduate in the top 10%...". I bet 90 percent of students at T4s go in thinking they are gonna grad in the top 10 percent. May God have pity on their souls.


Way to miss the main point of the post. There are many reasons people pick T4s over worse offers from higher ranked schools, particularly the financial aspect. Family is a consideration, practice area factors in as well. Shit, I pretty much threw in that bit about top 10% to appease those like yourself who believe there's nothing outside of Biglaw and federal clerkships. I don't think OP is under any illusions as to where he or she wants to go in the field. If you believe unemployment is the only option outside of those two I listed above, then I hope Texas's name can carry you for a looong time.

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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:44 pm

Attucks wrote:
art vandelay wrote:
Attucks wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Going to a T4 ITE is about as a good an investment as giving money to Nigerian princes online.


Because just finding a job fresh out of undergrad ITE is a MUCH better idea. Just go to the T4 with that scholly, come out with less debt than most, graduate in the top 10%, do what you have to do to succeed on your own terms and forget the rest.


Aaaaand here we go. "Just... graduate in the top 10%...". I bet 90 percent of students at T4s go in thinking they are gonna grad in the top 10 percent. May God have pity on their souls.


Way to miss the main point of the post. There are many reasons people pick T4s over worse offers from higher ranked schools, particularly the financial aspect. Family is a consideration, practice area factors in as well. Shit, I pretty much threw in that bit about top 10% to appease those like yourself who believe there's nothing outside of Biglaw and federal clerkships. I don't think OP is under any illusions as to where he or she wants to go in the field. If you believe unemployment is the only option outside of those two I listed above, then I hope Texas's name can carry you for a looong time.


ITE, if you are coming out of a t4 and you're not in the top 10%, you're totally fucked. I have dozens of firsthand stories I could share with you to confirm this fact. One of my closest friends went to a t4 here in my home city and was unemployed for 2 1/2 years. He was in the top half of his class.

You will NOT have a job ITE if you graduate below median at a t4 (unless perhaps your daddy gives you a job somewhere in which case you shouldn't have any self-esteem anyways). And if you do find a job, you're going to wish you'd never gone into law because your job is going to be so incredibly shitty that you're going to cry yourself to sleep. My friend who just barely found legal work after 2 1/2 years does slip-and-flaw, ambulance-chaser shitlaw. He has no self-esteem, and regularly contemplates suicide.

There are MUCH better ways to spend your life people! Become a lifeguard or park ranger. Do something that you'll actually enjoy while getting paid nothing.

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Attucks
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Attucks » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:36 pm

CE2JD wrote:
ITE, if you are coming out of a t4 and you're not in the top 10%, you're totally fucked. I have dozens of firsthand stories I could share with you to confirm this fact. One of my closest friends went to a t4 here in my home city and was unemployed for 2 1/2 years. He was in the top half of his class.

You will NOT have a job ITE if you graduate below median at a t4 (unless perhaps your daddy gives you a job somewhere in which case you shouldn't have any self-esteem anyways). And if you do find a job, you're going to wish you'd never gone into law because your job is going to be so incredibly shitty that you're going to cry yourself to sleep. My friend who just barely found legal work after 2 1/2 years does slip-and-flaw, ambulance-chaser shitlaw. He has no self-esteem, and regularly contemplates suicide.

There are MUCH better ways to spend your life people! Become a lifeguard or park ranger. Do something that you'll actually enjoy while getting paid nothing.


Right. If closest friend was unemployed in the legal profession for 2 1/2 years, he was probably making decent money somewhere, maybe even enough to put away a little savings. With that, and possibly a modest loan, he could've leased a modest piece of commercial property, opened his own practice and been his own boss. Sure he would've toughed it out for a while, but chances are if he was charging competitive rates he would've seen some work, grown his client base and eventually begin making decent money.

Now, if he was strictly unemployed for 2 1/2 years, he had some family help on his loans, in which case he could've opened up his own practice and made it on his own a lot sooner. If neither of these things happened, your friend must have been pretty content to sit around and waste his degree.

If you're in the bottom 40% at a T4 ITE, yes, you will have an uphill battle. But to say you can't make it or be happy with your decisions without being "totally fucked" is a fallacy. You also avoid mentioning how you're not totally fucked coming out of undergrad and trying to find work right now.

AdCommie
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby AdCommie » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:49 pm

If you want to go to a T4 that badly, just go. But for the service of future 0Ls, make sure to keep your account on TLS and let us know what its really like.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby SoxyPirate » Tue Jun 30, 2009 3:33 pm

lsat160plus wrote:I'd like to thank Wendyone for your very enlightened view on Disabilities.
And I have heard some tests take longer than others - some are 5 hrs, others can be 7hrs depending on the efficiency of the proctors.


Getting back to the name of the game, I am doing a little research here and notice on Widener (PA) 's website that they have some opportunities of externships in Harrisburg. So that seems to be good:
http://law.widener.edu/Academics/Clinic ... ogram.aspx

Now lets have a look see at Penn State Dickinson Law College:
There is an opportunity avail. to go to DC for a semester, but for me, thats not an option I would choose.
Although that's very nice, I imagine.
What else is available?
Some in house clinics:
http://www.dsl.psu.edu/clinic/elderlaw.cfm

I don't know, I still think Widener (PA) might be the better bet between the two.
Call me crazy.


And now for a little light humor:
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.dsl.psu.edu/clinic/elderlaw.cfm
Maybe this is where I belong, elder care law. :wink:
Is 55 "elder" ? Compared to you folks, probably even more than that.


DSL is transitioning right now so their programs, clinics, etc. may seem meager, but they'll be bulked up in the upcoming years. It's funny that you think Widener might be better because of the Harrisburg connection, considering Penn State's Carlisle Campus (formerly Dickinson Law) is practically next door to Harrisburg, and undoubtedly places better in Harrisburg than Widener.

Through PSU's connections the DSL is also offering study-abroad opportunites in Europe, Africa, South America, and Asia if I'm not mistaken.

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js87
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby js87 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:22 am

I live in the South Florida area (where Nova Southeastern, the school the OP mentioned is located). Nova is known locally, but I recently met a 3L who told me that out of her graduating class two students had job offers prior to graduation. This was around April.

I would go to a T3 or T4 only if you were receiving a considerable scholarship which reduced your loan debt to near zero, and you are comfortable with the idea of potentially working as a solo. Or perhaps if you have good connections.

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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:45 pm

Attucks wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
ITE, if you are coming out of a t4 and you're not in the top 10%, you're totally fucked. I have dozens of firsthand stories I could share with you to confirm this fact. One of my closest friends went to a t4 here in my home city and was unemployed for 2 1/2 years. He was in the top half of his class.

You will NOT have a job ITE if you graduate below median at a t4 (unless perhaps your daddy gives you a job somewhere in which case you shouldn't have any self-esteem anyways). And if you do find a job, you're going to wish you'd never gone into law because your job is going to be so incredibly shitty that you're going to cry yourself to sleep. My friend who just barely found legal work after 2 1/2 years does slip-and-flaw, ambulance-chaser shitlaw. He has no self-esteem, and regularly contemplates suicide.

There are MUCH better ways to spend your life people! Become a lifeguard or park ranger. Do something that you'll actually enjoy while getting paid nothing.


Right. If closest friend was unemployed in the legal profession for 2 1/2 years, he was probably making decent money somewhere, maybe even enough to put away a little savings. With that, and possibly a modest loan, he could've leased a modest piece of commercial property, opened his own practice and been his own boss. Sure he would've toughed it out for a while, but chances are if he was charging competitive rates he would've seen some work, grown his client base and eventually begin making decent money.

Now, if he was strictly unemployed for 2 1/2 years, he had some family help on his loans, in which case he could've opened up his own practice and made it on his own a lot sooner. If neither of these things happened, your friend must have been pretty content to sit around and waste his degree.

If you're in the bottom 40% at a T4 ITE, yes, you will have an uphill battle. But to say you can't make it or be happy with your decisions without being "totally fucked" is a fallacy. You also avoid mentioning how you're not totally fucked coming out of undergrad and trying to find work right now.


Are you insane? Nobody opens up a private practice with no experience right out of law school.

And as for me finding a job right out of UG: I have an engineering degree. Engineers are bout 10x more in demand than lawyers because every retard and his neighbor has a law degree.

AdCommie
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby AdCommie » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:58 pm

CE2JD wrote:
Attucks wrote:
CE2JD wrote:
ITE, if you are coming out of a t4 and you're not in the top 10%, you're totally fucked. I have dozens of firsthand stories I could share with you to confirm this fact. One of my closest friends went to a t4 here in my home city and was unemployed for 2 1/2 years. He was in the top half of his class.

You will NOT have a job ITE if you graduate below median at a t4 (unless perhaps your daddy gives you a job somewhere in which case you shouldn't have any self-esteem anyways). And if you do find a job, you're going to wish you'd never gone into law because your job is going to be so incredibly shitty that you're going to cry yourself to sleep. My friend who just barely found legal work after 2 1/2 years does slip-and-flaw, ambulance-chaser shitlaw. He has no self-esteem, and regularly contemplates suicide.

There are MUCH better ways to spend your life people! Become a lifeguard or park ranger. Do something that you'll actually enjoy while getting paid nothing.


Right. If closest friend was unemployed in the legal profession for 2 1/2 years, he was probably making decent money somewhere, maybe even enough to put away a little savings. With that, and possibly a modest loan, he could've leased a modest piece of commercial property, opened his own practice and been his own boss. Sure he would've toughed it out for a while, but chances are if he was charging competitive rates he would've seen some work, grown his client base and eventually begin making decent money.

Now, if he was strictly unemployed for 2 1/2 years, he had some family help on his loans, in which case he could've opened up his own practice and made it on his own a lot sooner. If neither of these things happened, your friend must have been pretty content to sit around and waste his degree.

If you're in the bottom 40% at a T4 ITE, yes, you will have an uphill battle. But to say you can't make it or be happy with your decisions without being "totally fucked" is a fallacy. You also avoid mentioning how you're not totally fucked coming out of undergrad and trying to find work right now.


Are you insane? Nobody opens up a private practice with no experience right out of law school.


Yes they do.

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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:59 pm

:roll:

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rayiner
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby rayiner » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:06 pm

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/20080 ... uation.jpg

During the boom, only 70% of law graduates found a real legal job, even a crappy one. Within the T3/T4, we're probably talking only 30% of the class getting a real legal job. In this economy, it may very well be 10-20%. There will be plenty of T2 folks snapping up the crappiest jobs that T3/T4 folks might've otherwise gotten.

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A'nold
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:21 pm

At my t3 state law school, the law school is the only school in the state. I have a decent scholly. It places at a 90+% rate in actual law jobs. The catch is, nobody wants to live in this state if they are graduating from other out-of-state schools, haha. There are only 100 (approx.) students per graduating class so the market is not over saturated. To anybody with low numbers considering t2/3/4 law schools, try to find a school that meets most of the criteria above.

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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:33 pm

A'nold wrote:At my t3 state law school, the law school is the only school in the state. I have a decent scholly. It places at a 90+% rate in actual law jobs. The catch is, nobody wants to live in this state if they are graduating from other out-of-state schools, haha. There are only 100 (approx.) students per graduating class so the market is not over saturated. To anybody with low numbers considering t2/3/4 law schools, try to find a school that meets most of the criteria above.


Even if your school places most grads in "law jobs," I probably make twice as much as most of your school's graduates RIGHT NOW, and I only have a BS.

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A'nold
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:44 pm

CE2JD wrote:
A'nold wrote:At my t3 state law school, the law school is the only school in the state. I have a decent scholly. It places at a 90+% rate in actual law jobs. The catch is, nobody wants to live in this state if they are graduating from other out-of-state schools, haha. There are only 100 (approx.) students per graduating class so the market is not over saturated. To anybody with low numbers considering t2/3/4 law schools, try to find a school that meets most of the criteria above.


Even if your school places most grads in "law jobs," I probably make twice as much as most of your school's graduates RIGHT NOW, and I only have a BS.



Hmmm....I'm glad your anecdotal evidence as an engineer is representative of what all of us are giving up...... :wink:

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General Tso
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby General Tso » Wed Jul 01, 2009 2:57 pm

AdCommie wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Are you insane? Nobody opens up a private practice with no experience right out of law school.


Yes they do.


Yes they do, and they tend to struggle greatly. In most cases, it is probably an act of desperation.

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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:12 pm

Why are you people who are saying it's okay to go to a t4 doing this? Do you realize that you are facilitators in what is perhaps the biggest crock of shit in American higher education? You are hurting people in the same way that phishing emails giving out tips to buy penny stocks do.

The exceptions to the rule regarding t4 are:

1) If you can go to a t4 for free or almost free, then I guess you can justify wasting 3 years of your life to get a possibly worthless piece of paper to hang on your wall.

2) If you have connections in the legal market, perhaps it won't matter that you're getting a toilet degree.

3) If you're a minority, it will be significantly easier to get a job out of a t4 because of AA hiring.


If none of these exceptions apply to you then DON'T GO TO A T4 LAW SCHOOL. You would be throwing away your life. Seriously, join the police force, go work for a fast-food restaurant, or start mowing lawns. You'll make much better use of your time.

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A'nold
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:52 pm

CE2JD wrote:Why are you people who are saying it's okay to go to a t4 doing this? Do you realize that you are facilitators in what is perhaps the biggest crock of shit in American higher education? You are hurting people in the same way that phishing emails giving out tips to buy penny stocks do.

The exceptions to the rule regarding t4 are:

1) If you can go to a t4 for free or almost free, then I guess you can justify wasting 3 years of your life to get a possibly worthless piece of paper to hang on your wall.

2) If you have connections in the legal market, perhaps it won't matter that you're getting a toilet degree.

3) If you're a minority, it will be significantly easier to get a job out of a t4 because of AA hiring.


If none of these exceptions apply to you then DON'T GO TO A T4 LAW SCHOOL. You would be throwing away your life. Seriously, join the police force, go work for a fast-food restaurant, or start mowing lawns. You'll make much better use of your time.


Lulz. Here's a question: Say a person wants to work in Mississipi as an ADA or PD. Would you rather they go to the University of Wisconsin at sticker or Ole Miss in-state? Or, furthermore, do you believe that these kinds of jobs are worthless and equivalent to a job at McDonalds?

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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:57 pm

A'nold wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Why are you people who are saying it's okay to go to a t4 doing this? Do you realize that you are facilitators in what is perhaps the biggest crock of shit in American higher education? You are hurting people in the same way that phishing emails giving out tips to buy penny stocks do.

The exceptions to the rule regarding t4 are:

1) If you can go to a t4 for free or almost free, then I guess you can justify wasting 3 years of your life to get a possibly worthless piece of paper to hang on your wall.

2) If you have connections in the legal market, perhaps it won't matter that you're getting a toilet degree.

3) If you're a minority, it will be significantly easier to get a job out of a t4 because of AA hiring.


If none of these exceptions apply to you then DON'T GO TO A T4 LAW SCHOOL. You would be throwing away your life. Seriously, join the police force, go work for a fast-food restaurant, or start mowing lawns. You'll make much better use of your time.


Lulz. Here's a question: Say a person wants to work in Mississipi as an ADA or PD. Would you rather they go to the University of Wisconsin at sticker or Ole Miss in-state? Or, furthermore, do you believe that these kinds of jobs are worthless and equivalent to a job at McDonalds?


I said from the beginning that if you're passionate about being an attorney (and the vast majority of law students are not) then you should go to law school. Obviously it would be better to go to Ole Miss over Wisconsin in this scenario.

And yes, I believe working at McDonalds and eventually becoming a manager is just as "prestigious" and lucrative as being a PD in Mississippi.

02082010
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby 02082010 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 3:58 pm

A'nold wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Why are you people who are saying it's okay to go to a t4 doing this? Do you realize that you are facilitators in what is perhaps the biggest crock of shit in American higher education? You are hurting people in the same way that phishing emails giving out tips to buy penny stocks do.

The exceptions to the rule regarding t4 are:

1) If you can go to a t4 for free or almost free, then I guess you can justify wasting 3 years of your life to get a possibly worthless piece of paper to hang on your wall.

2) If you have connections in the legal market, perhaps it won't matter that you're getting a toilet degree.

3) If you're a minority, it will be significantly easier to get a job out of a t4 because of AA hiring.


If none of these exceptions apply to you then DON'T GO TO A T4 LAW SCHOOL. You would be throwing away your life. Seriously, join the police force, go work for a fast-food restaurant, or start mowing lawns. You'll make much better use of your time.


Lulz. Here's a question: Say a person wants to work in Mississipi as an ADA or PD. Would you rather they go to the University of Wisconsin at sticker or Ole Miss in-state? Or, furthermore, do you believe that these kinds of jobs are worthless and equivalent to a job at McDonalds?


:roll:

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A'nold
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby A'nold » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:02 pm

hopefulundergrad wrote:
A'nold wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Why are you people who are saying it's okay to go to a t4 doing this? Do you realize that you are facilitators in what is perhaps the biggest crock of shit in American higher education? You are hurting people in the same way that phishing emails giving out tips to buy penny stocks do.

The exceptions to the rule regarding t4 are:

1) If you can go to a t4 for free or almost free, then I guess you can justify wasting 3 years of your life to get a possibly worthless piece of paper to hang on your wall.

2) If you have connections in the legal market, perhaps it won't matter that you're getting a toilet degree.

3) If you're a minority, it will be significantly easier to get a job out of a t4 because of AA hiring.


If none of these exceptions apply to you then DON'T GO TO A T4 LAW SCHOOL. You would be throwing away your life. Seriously, join the police force, go work for a fast-food restaurant, or start mowing lawns. You'll make much better use of your time.


Lulz. Here's a question: Say a person wants to work in Mississipi as an ADA or PD. Would you rather they go to the University of Wisconsin at sticker or Ole Miss in-state? Or, furthermore, do you believe that these kinds of jobs are worthless and equivalent to a job at McDonalds?


:roll:


Yes, because I definitely deserved an eye roll for my comment.......here's one for you too :roll: Let's all eye roll, it really proves a point!

Well, it is obvious that people have different goals in life. It is funny that you think that a manager at Mickey D's is equivalent to an attorney job in the gov. just because it isn't some kind of federal gig. It is all relative, thus the blanket advice that attending a t4 is alwasy a bad idea is inherently wrong.

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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Mark71121 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:04 pm

public defender in mississippi. way to aim high

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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:04 pm

A t4 is ALMOST always a bad idea. The problem is that 100% of the people going to a t4 think they're part of the 10-40% for which going to a t4 might not be a bad idea.

02082010
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby 02082010 » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:14 pm

A'nold wrote:
hopefulundergrad wrote:
A'nold wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Why are you people who are saying it's okay to go to a t4 doing this? Do you realize that you are facilitators in what is perhaps the biggest crock of shit in American higher education? You are hurting people in the same way that phishing emails giving out tips to buy penny stocks do.

The exceptions to the rule regarding t4 are:

1) If you can go to a t4 for free or almost free, then I guess you can justify wasting 3 years of your life to get a possibly worthless piece of paper to hang on your wall.

2) If you have connections in the legal market, perhaps it won't matter that you're getting a toilet degree.

3) If you're a minority, it will be significantly easier to get a job out of a t4 because of AA hiring.


If none of these exceptions apply to you then DON'T GO TO A T4 LAW SCHOOL. You would be throwing away your life. Seriously, join the police force, go work for a fast-food restaurant, or start mowing lawns. You'll make much better use of your time.


Lulz. Here's a question: Say a person wants to work in Mississipi as an ADA or PD. Would you rather they go to the University of Wisconsin at sticker or Ole Miss in-state? Or, furthermore, do you believe that these kinds of jobs are worthless and equivalent to a job at McDonalds?


:roll:


Yes, because I definitely deserved an eye roll for my comment.......here's one for you too :roll: Let's all eye roll, it really proves a point!

Well, it is obvious that people have different goals in life. It is funny that you think that a manager at Mickey D's is equivalent to an attorney job in the gov. just because it isn't some kind of federal gig. It is all relative, thus the blanket advice that attending a t4 is alwasy a bad idea is inherently wrong.


Constantly giving suspect advice will warrant that.

T4 is a bad idea. I'd be worried if someone with a 2.7 UGPA and 148 LSAT was an agent of the state (DA) or my PD if I was accused of a crime.

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Always Credited
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Always Credited » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:19 pm

CE2JD wrote:A t4 is ALMOST always a bad idea. The problem is that 100% of the people going to a t4 think they're part of the 10-40% for which going to a t4 might not be a bad idea.


TITCR.

But why should we care so much? Seriously. I personally don't give a fuck if some kid wants to disregard my advice and blow one of the biggest investments of his life on a school that can offer, at best, minimal opportunity in exchange.

Just another lawyer I can crush underfoot in 3 years, whatever.

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Attucks
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Attucks » Wed Jul 01, 2009 4:25 pm

hopefulundergrad wrote:I'd be worried if someone with a 2.7 UGPA and 148 LSAT was an agent of the state (DA)


They probably are. Get over it.

Always Credited wrote:
Just another lawyer I can crush underfoot in 3 years, whatever.


I can tell the force is strong in this one.




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