How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

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ToadGoDead
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby ToadGoDead » Mon Jun 29, 2009 2:42 pm

TO OP...

a girl i have known for 16 years...her step dad graduated from vermont law....he does extremely well for himself...like has a million clam house and his own pracice....i think it comes down to the fact that the better known schools will open more doors and will generally make it easier to succeed...(whether that is due to the school or the individuals that are just talented)...if you want to study law because it excites you and you are passionate about the law and HELPING people....then go for it, without a doubt...it might be more difficult, but you know the saying, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

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D. H2Oman
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:05 pm

ToadGoDead wrote:TO OP...

a girl i have known for 16 years...her step dad graduated from vermont law....he does extremely well for himself...like has a million clam house and his own pracice....i think it comes down to the fact that the better known schools will open more doors and will generally make it easier to succeed...(whether that is due to the school or the individuals that are just talented)...if you want to study law because it excites you and you are passionate about the law and HELPING people....then go for it, without a doubt...it might be more difficult, but you know the saying, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger!



lol, that is a great reason to go to law school. This country doesn't have enough lawyers, that is totally a great reason to become a lawyer.

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Attucks
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Attucks » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:08 pm

Dwaterman86 wrote:lol, that is a great reason to go to law school. This country doesn't have enough lawyers, that is totally a great reason to become a lawyer.


lol, I don't think it's the only reason he stated. Just one of many. Don't be a douche.

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D. H2Oman
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby D. H2Oman » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:24 pm

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Last edited by D. H2Oman on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:01 am, edited 3 times in total.


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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:20 pm

Going to a T4 ITE is about as a good an investment as giving money to Nigerian princes online.

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Attucks
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Attucks » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:30 pm

CE2JD wrote:Going to a T4 ITE is about as a good an investment as giving money to Nigerian princes online.


Because just finding a job fresh out of undergrad ITE is a MUCH better idea. Just go to the T4 with that scholly, come out with less debt than most, graduate in the top 10%, do what you have to do to succeed on your own terms and forget the rest.

Bankhead
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Bankhead » Mon Jun 29, 2009 7:42 pm

Some Tier 4's are great schools, like Southwestern in LA.

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CE2JD
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby CE2JD » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:19 pm

Or you could study for 5-6 hours, retake the LSAT and just go to a Tier 2 school.

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SoxyPirate
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby SoxyPirate » Mon Jun 29, 2009 8:23 pm

I think a t4 ITE can a reasonable choice if your opportunity costs are low and you're able to keep your debt under 50k...maybe more like 30k.

Sticker at a T4 right now is too risky for my tastes, personally.

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Attucks
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Attucks » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:14 pm

SoxyPirate wrote:I think a t4 ITE can a reasonable choice if your opportunity costs are low and you're able to keep your debt under 50k...maybe more like 30k.

Sticker at a T4 right now is too risky for my tastes, personally.

This. It sounds like the OP has no real Biglaw aspirations, and maybe some small firm, private practice, or even government work would be up his or her alley. There is no reason why you shouldn't be looking at at least a minimal scholarship from a T3/4, but also plan on going somewhere you'll be comfortable practicing. If possible, look in an area where that school really competes in the local market.

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Mr. Matlock
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby Mr. Matlock » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:32 pm

CE2JD wrote:Going to a T4 ITE is about as a good an investment as giving money to Nigerian princes online.

In a month, when I'm on the beach at Cannes sipping Mie Ties reaping the return on my investment, we'll see who has the last laugh!

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lsat160plus
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lsat160plus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:18 am

Hello there. Has anyone got any information on the PA branch of Widener? Any alumni with thoughts on their experience?
I don't believe it is ranked. However, I live in the area and it seems to be the best fit for me, as I've already had a career as a history professor for 25 years...other consideration I have is Penn State Dickinson College of Law.

Thanks for indulging this old fellow. :wink:

http://law.widener.edu/

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James Bond
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby James Bond » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:20 am

lsat160plus wrote:Hello there. Has anyone got any information on the PA branch of Widener? Any alumni with thoughts on their experience?
I don't believe it is ranked. However, I live in the area and it seems to be the best fit for me, as I've already had a career as a history professor for 25 years...other consideration I have is Penn State Dickinson College of Law.

Thanks for indulging this old fellow. :wink:

http://law.widener.edu/


Please, for the love of god, pick Penn State over Widener. While Widener does place well in Delaware shit law, it's not a recommended school by any way/shape/form

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lsat160plus
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lsat160plus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:26 am

Hello there, thank you for your post. Could you explain your position a little further please?

biv0ns wrote:
lsat160plus wrote:Hello there. Has anyone got any information on the PA branch of Widener? Any alumni with thoughts on their experience?
I don't believe it is ranked. However, I live in the area and it seems to be the best fit for me, as I've already had a career as a history professor for 25 years...other consideration I have is Penn State Dickinson College of Law.

Thanks for indulging this old fellow. :wink:

http://law.widener.edu/


Please, for the love of god, pick Penn State over Widener. While Widener does place well in Delaware shit law, it's not a recommended school by any way/shape/form

art vandelay
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby art vandelay » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:26 am

im_blue wrote:
wendyone wrote:Okay, I'm going to come out and say it.

Fuck the snobs who tell you not to go to school at all.

Fuck them.

Excuse my language. I'm really not a jerk. But it pisses me off.

The amount of arrogance it takes to assume that a person has no options but to attend a t4 because they are in some way intellectually inferior or lazy is unfounded and offensive.

There are many reasons some people don't ace the LSATs.

One very common one is LD. There are plenty of future law students with learning disabilities that do not interfere with their academic abilities as far as research, paper writing, debate, classwork, and even regular testing situations for the most part but for whom certain extreme timed testing conditions are very difficult.

Some of these students choose to disclose their LDs because they can receive accommodations which allow them to equitably take standardized tests and perform to the best of their abilities- this gives these testtakers no advantage over students without LDs- it simply removes their DISADVANTAGE.

However.

Many students rightly assume that LD is looked upon by the elite academic community with a stigma that potentially hurts them more than a low test score would, so they choose to fight it out and take the exam anyway.

There are more of these students than you think there are. High scoring students ignorantly assume that all students who score low do so because of lack of preparation, skill, or inferiority.

Documented learning disability rarely earns a first, much less second thought.

So much for the LSAT as an explanation for why no smart kids are forced to go to t4s.

What about GPA? What the excuse for that?

Well, what is the excuse?

What in a person's undergrad career could possibly cause them to falter in their grades? Let's see. It could be a variety of different factors. The trauma of a personal assault. The death of a close family member. The diagnosis of a serious illness. A father who is sent to prison. Any or all of these things. Suppose one of these stressful circumstances were to occur but the child should choose to continue to attend school rather than face the full impact of these terrible events. Their grades will suffer. It is the child's own choice. You may feel free to blame them. But you may also feel like a little bit of an asshole calling them lazy, especially when they're struggling through all of this at an Ivy league and you're praising a kid who's earning straight As at what you would consider a TTT undergrad.

So it's 5 or six years later and the kid has grown up and wants to get past whatever bad stuff kept him down in undergrad, and fulfill his full potential, the hard work and brains that got him into that Ivy school in the first place. He applies to law school.

The LD holds him down pretty hard, and his LSAT score is flat out bad. He decides that to disclose his LD along with his GPA would be one two many indicators that he couldn't handle schoolwork, despite his stellar grad school performance. He was pretty disheartened when he realized that working his ass off to get his masters didn't account for shit in his law school application.

So what he had to present was a terrible UGPA, a terrible LSAT score, a great grad gpa, a decent resume, glowing letters of recommendation, and the realization that the only two factors that matter are the UGPA and the LSAT score.

Of course the kid is only going to get into a tier 4.

Whether or not you think the kid deserves a chance to prove himself, he's probably smarter than most of the kids at most of the schools above him, he has four years more work and life experience than most of them, he's been through a hell of a lot of shit to get where he is, but none of it is the type of stuff you can write about in an essay that law schools like to read about. No one wants to read about surviving a rape or seeing your brother get shot or dealing with a severe anxiety disorder or a family member being put on trial for a violent crime.

This kid is going to law school because he has every right to go to law school, and he's going to a tier 4 because in his circumstances, no other school is going to give him a chance.

He's not an idiot, but he can't go back in time and do his undergrad when his world wasn't falling apart around him.

He's not stupid, but he can't take the LSAT without accommodations and score within a range that reflects his capabilities.

It just works out that way for him.

I'm sorry.

I just feel very strongly about this. GO to law school. If you only get into a t4, go to a t4. If you get into a t3, go to a t3. If you get into a t2, go to a t2.

But if the only school willing to recognize that not every student is the average student, that there are no special circumstances, that nothing goes horribly wrong sometimes and that most importantly because this none of the rest matters if this does not hold true

STUDENTS DO NOT DESERVE A SECOND CHANCE TO PROVE THEMSELVES

then damn, kid, go to the t4 school.

Go, kick ass, transfer up if you can, work your way up in the world, and tell anyone who encourages you to quit to go to hell.

For the love of god, do not quit.

I'm sorry, I've just read one too many of these posts today.


Yeah, everyone deserves the chance to piss away $150,000 on a worthless investment. You're goddamn right that's everyone's right! Hell, ABA should start opening T5 schools to fill all the demand from kids who deserve a second chance.


SSSSSHHHHHH! Don't give ABA any ideas, for the love of God!

art vandelay
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby art vandelay » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:29 am

Attucks wrote:
CE2JD wrote:Going to a T4 ITE is about as a good an investment as giving money to Nigerian princes online.


Because just finding a job fresh out of undergrad ITE is a MUCH better idea. Just go to the T4 with that scholly, come out with less debt than most, graduate in the top 10%, do what you have to do to succeed on your own terms and forget the rest.


Aaaaand here we go. "Just... graduate in the top 10%...". I bet 90 percent of students at T4s go in thinking they are gonna grad in the top 10 percent. May God have pity on their souls.

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James Bond
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby James Bond » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:30 am

lsat160plus wrote:Hello there, thank you for your post. Could you explain your position a little further please?

biv0ns wrote:
lsat160plus wrote:Hello there. Has anyone got any information on the PA branch of Widener? Any alumni with thoughts on their experience?
I don't believe it is ranked. However, I live in the area and it seems to be the best fit for me, as I've already had a career as a history professor for 25 years...other consideration I have is Penn State Dickinson College of Law.

Thanks for indulging this old fellow. :wink:

http://law.widener.edu/


Please, for the love of god, pick Penn State over Widener. While Widener does place well in Delaware shit law, it's not a recommended school by any way/shape/form


Penn State is a nationally ranked school. While I'm far from a rankings whore, the difference between Tier 2 and Tier...uh...4? is pretty big. Penn State also just built a brand new building. It's pretty wild, but nice.

Widener grads place decently in Delaware, but all in really low-paying jobs. If you're an "old fellow" I assume that you don't want to have a job or the pay that most 25 year olds wouldn't want. Penn State just gives you a better chance.

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lsat160plus
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lsat160plus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:32 am

He he - wow a lot of opinionate folks out there. Well, I did ok on the lsat - is a 163 considered pretty solid, I thought?
However, I am married with a wife and children and we have roots here in central PA.
I would like to better understand some of contract law and there is my main interest in law school. Also naturally as an adjunct history professor, law is very much intwined...I am very interested in exercising the mind in legal debates and inhouse contract law in my town. I am not too worried about contacts, I think I'm a fairly friendly guy, think I can make a good life if I could hack a living as a professor :wink:
Any takers on this? Okay, here we go....aim away with your thoughts!

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lsat160plus
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lsat160plus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:34 am

Widener grads place decently in Delaware, but all in really low-paying jobs. If you're an "old fellow" I assume that you don't want to have a job or the pay that most 25 year olds wouldn't want. Penn State just gives you a better chance.


Thanks, that new building sounds nice, but that's true, I would like to "place" myself in a good position.
Is there a comparison of the faculty -what is the major factor there- that makes the school ranked a tier two?

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James Bond
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby James Bond » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:36 am

lsat160plus wrote:He he - wow a lot of opinionate folks out there. Well, I did ok on the lsat - is a 163 considered pretty solid, I thought?
However, I am married with a wife and children and we have roots here in central PA.
I would like to better understand some of contract law and there is my main interest in law school. Also naturally as an adjunct history professor, law is very much intwined...I am very interested in exercising the mind in legal debates and inhouse contract law in my town. I am not too worried about contacts, I think I'm a fairly friendly guy, think I can make a good life if I could hack a living as a professor :wink:
Any takers on this? Okay, here we go....aim away with your thoughts!


163 is a decent score. It will get you into PSU depending on your GPA, but since you're more removed from undergrad than most your GPA won't count as much in most cases.

Anyhow...

Roots in central pa + wife and kids + other option is Widener = Go to PSU :mrgreen:

02082010
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby 02082010 » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:39 am

:shock:

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James Bond
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby James Bond » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:43 am

lsat160plus wrote:
Widener grads place decently in Delaware, but all in really low-paying jobs. If you're an "old fellow" I assume that you don't want to have a job or the pay that most 25 year olds wouldn't want. Penn State just gives you a better chance.


Thanks, that new building sounds nice, but that's true, I would like to "place" myself in a good position.
Is there a comparison of the faculty -what is the major factor there- that makes the school ranked a tier two?


Pretty much just reputation...but reputation gets you jobs

http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html

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lsat160plus
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lsat160plus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:59 am

I'd like to thank Wendyone for your very enlightened view on Disabilities.
And I have heard some tests take longer than others - some are 5 hrs, others can be 7hrs depending on the efficiency of the proctors.


Getting back to the name of the game, I am doing a little research here and notice on Widener (PA) 's website that they have some opportunities of externships in Harrisburg. So that seems to be good:
http://law.widener.edu/Academics/Clinic ... ogram.aspx

Now lets have a look see at Penn State Dickinson Law College:
There is an opportunity avail. to go to DC for a semester, but for me, thats not an option I would choose.
Although that's very nice, I imagine.
What else is available?
Some in house clinics:
http://www.dsl.psu.edu/clinic/elderlaw.cfm

I don't know, I still think Widener (PA) might be the better bet between the two.
Call me crazy.


And now for a little light humor:
--LinkRemoved--
http://www.dsl.psu.edu/clinic/elderlaw.cfm
Maybe this is where I belong, elder care law. :wink:
Is 55 "elder" ? Compared to you folks, probably even more than that.

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lsat160plus
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Re: How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school..

Postby lsat160plus » Tue Jun 30, 2009 2:01 am

It will get you into PSU depending on your GPA, but since you're more removed from undergrad than most your GPA won't count as much in most cases.


Now, this I didn't know. But-I like it. :wink:




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