How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school.. Forum

[AverageGuy]

Ejjones - Read your posts and agree. I have a family member who went to a 3T and worked up to being a top lawyer in a Fortune >50 outside of the NYC market. I've met and networked with a lot of lawyers over the last few years, and they've also said that it doesn't matter where you went to school unless you want biglaw or teaching jobs. Nobody asks where you went to law school after the first few years. Outside of the big markets, even the Clerkships are more wide open if you don't mind clerking for a lower level Court. Some of the T4s have strong regional presence and alumni who will hire from them. Duquesne, for ex., has some very loyal Judges and alumni in the Pittsburgh market- and the locals have no idea that it isn't ranked as well as Pitt.

[AverageGuy]

Ejjones - Read your posts and agree. I have a family member who went to a 3T and worked up to being a top lawyer in a Fortune >50 outside of the NYC market. I've met and networked with a lot of lawyers over the last few years, and they've also said that it doesn't matter where you went to school unless you want biglaw or teaching jobs. Nobody asks where you went to law school after the first few years. Outside of the big markets, even the Clerkships are more wide open if you don't mind clerking for a lower level Court. Some of the T4s have strong regional presence and alumni who will hire from them. Duquesne, for ex., has some very loyal Judges and alumni in the Pittsburgh market- and the locals have no idea that it isn't ranked as well as Pitt.

[lsat160plus]

ITE, if you are coming out of a t4 and you're not in the top 10%, you're totally ******* I have dozens of firsthand stories I could share with you to confirm this fact. One of my closest friends went to a t4 here in my home city and was unemployed for 2 1/2 years. He was in the top half of his class.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Please do not flame this post.

However, is it possible that your friend simply did not "go all the way" with his dedication to getting a job?
Getting a job often requires a great deal of persistance and many successful people will not admit to you that they applied to 100 companies and heard back from 2. Directly targeting a couple dozen companies and tailoring each and every cover letter to said company. Going into your interview and knowing more about them than the HR manager who is screening you for the attorney will impress them, and make them feel you belong. Read News articles in addition to everything posted on the company website, google the company, find out little "sound bites" you can put out there to impress.
I highly recommend this book: Don't Send A Resume by Jeffrey A. Fox

Keep in mind, if two people have the same credentials, the person with the more pleasant personality wins every time. Most initial interviews are just personality screenings. Any chance your friend needs to brush up on his handshake/eye contact or professional demeanor? Also - dress for the job you want to have, not the job you have. .

Hope this helps. T4s can't be all *that* bad. After all, it's what you do with the information that is given to you that determines your success in life.

[lsat160plus]

From Law School Discussion Forum:

Title: Re: Is going to a 3rd tier school even worth it???
Post by: SavoyTruffleShuffle on December 19, 2008, 12:58:29 PM
I was just talking yesterday to a Widener grad who's now an Assistant DA.


Not too shabby.

[lsat160plus]

Ejjones - Read your posts and agree. I have a family member who went to a 3T and worked up to being a top lawyer in a Fortune >50 outside of the NYC market. I've met and networked with a lot of lawyers over the last few years, and they've also said that it doesn't matter where you went to school unless you want biglaw or teaching jobs. Nobody asks where you went to law school after the first few years. Outside of the big markets, even the Clerkships are more wide open if you don't mind clerking for a lower level Court. Some of the T4s have strong regional presence and alumni who will hire from them. Duquesne, for ex., has some very loyal Judges and alumni in the Pittsburgh market- and the locals have no idea that it isn't ranked as well as Pitt.

Great post, I enjoyed reading this!
Kudos to those with positive attitudes.

[lsat160plus]

Exactly, if you're not going to a nationally recognized school (ie T14/some T30 schools) your best bet is to go to the strongest regional school in the general geographic location you wish to practice in and pick the school in that region that'll give you the most money.
.

I like this. "Bump".

[lsat160plus]

Dickinson - TT # 91 vs Widener - TTT

This Widener grad looks like he has a corner office...what do you think?

--LinkRemoved--

How about this Univ. of Baltimore grad?

http://www.akingump.com/ltanenbaum/


Go to any Biglaw firm, and you can look up lawyers by School. Then you will see the vast array of schools these firm have selected their members from.

One such example - Akin Gump:

http://www.akingump.com/attorneys/

[articulably suspect]

Although I am a big propoent of "T3/4 doesn't=career suicide", the reality is that the Bigdick firms mainly recruit at the T14 and to a lesser extent schools in the 20's. It's just a fact that ones odds are exponentially greater at getting a Biglaw job right out of ls if one attends a T14 as opposed to a T3/4.

I feel like I've been on the defense of T3 and even T4 schools a lot the last couple of days. Don't get me wrong, I'll probably end up attending the best school I can get into that's a T1. However, for those out there who don't get into a "good" school, I think that they get an extremely onesided and financial driven responses (which is fine and they should know this.) It's just that there are other reasons to attend ls and become a lawyer, but you may struggle a bit fresh out of ls, but not the rest of your occupational life.

My beef with TLS is that all the info on here, in regards to T3/4's and the type of government jobs (sometimes called shit law) people refer to gravely differs from my personal experience and that of attorney's who've shared their personal experiences and advice about specific types of law, salary, hiring and ls. Like I've said before, when people on here reference hiring practices, salary, schools represented at these agencies, etc, I was beginning to wonder if I worked/lived in the only area where people out of T3's, 4's, and even non-ABA schools found jobs and maybe that's the case. Two worlds exist, that of TLS posters and that of lawyers and I've simply found that they don't always line up when it comes to issues I've had personal experiences with.

Not bashing TLS or anyones on here, there's a lot of great and sound advice to be found on this site. I know it's helped me a lot.

[A'nold]

public defender in mississippi. way to aim high

If only I had a bat to beat the douchetard out of you. Since no such bat exists, just go fuck yourself bitch.

It's been so long since I've truly lol'ed irl. Thank you Mr. Matlock, thank you.

[A'nold]

Sorry about your tiny pink t2 dude, but it means no more than does a t4 when looked at regionally.

I'm sorry but this just isn't true at all, even within regions there is a level of respect for schools that varies. Look at UF vs. FAMU for instance if you want to work in Florida

I am not talking about schools within the same region (why are people nitpicking my comments instead of infering here?). I am talking about Ole Miss for MS vs. Temple for MS. One is a t3 (oh noes!) and the other is close to a low t1/ high t2. Ole Miss crushes them in MS. If you are talking Duquesne vs. Temple for PA, then of course Temple wins.

Ah, I see your point now, sorry.

It's all good. I thought it was a misunderstanding. That's why I didn't get all pissy and just explained myself a little more.

[A'nold]

Sorry about your tiny pink t2 dude, but it means no more than does a t4 when looked at regionally.

I'm sorry but this just isn't true at all, even within regions there is a level of respect for schools that varies. Look at UF vs. FAMU for instance if you want to work in Florida

I am not talking about schools within the same region (why are people nitpicking my comments instead of infering here?). I am talking about Ole Miss for MS vs. Temple for MS. One is a t3 (oh noes!) and the other is close to a low t1/ high t2. Ole Miss crushes them in MS. If you are talking Duquesne vs. Temple for PA, then of course Temple wins.

I see that Ole Miss keeps getting mentioned. Let's just make clear that Ole Miss is a T3, state school, not too expensive, and it has its own market. So yeah Ole Miss is not really a bad choice at all if you are looking for a job in Mississippi.

That being said, lets remember that there are about 60-70 T3/T4 law schools which don't have a market and aren't cheap. Taking out mega loans for these schools are horrible choices.

Best case scenario: End up high in your class (let's just say top 1/3, even though I think you need to be top 10%) Top 1/3, you can land an actually legal job making 50,000/year (again I think its less, but still) 50,000 per year is a very decent salary for most people. However, you went to at least SEVEN years of school.

Lets say you have 150,000K in loans. (likely for many)

10 year, monthly loan payment=$1750 per month (57,000 in total interest paid)
30 year, monthly loan payment=977 per month (202,000 in total interest paid)

Now imagine, if you never found legally employment at all.

A lot of people on the site are dicks when they talk about T4 law schools, but they are right to warn students off of these schools.

I think most people do not realize the reality of taking out this much money in loans.

That's the whole point though. You just agreed with all of us that are saying it might not be a bad idea. I have said over and over again that expensive privates at sticker in a saturated market are the kiss of death. People were saying that it is always a bad idea. I and many others said this is not true. Then we got a lot of sarcastic elitist comments about "setting your sights high".

[articulably suspect]

Why do you think it's hard for people to accept this or see this re: regional schools in less saturated markets. Just to be clear were referring to say NYLS in NY or maybe Catholic in DC, right?

[A'nold]

Why do you think it's hard for people to accept this or see this re: regional schools in less saturated markets. Just to be clear were referring to say NYLS in NY or maybe Catholic in DC, right?

Yep, as well as schools like John Marshall in Chicago, Thomas Jefferson in SanDiego, etc.

The following public t3 and 4 schools are pretty top dogish in their markets:

Ole Miss
Montana
Idaho
Both Dakotas
Wyoming


There are some top dog t3 and 4 private schools where if a student gets a good scholarship they would not be a fool to consider attending:

Maine (although I guess it is now t2 lol)
Drake
Vermont
Franklin Pierce



I used to blindly follow the rankings too, thinking such foolhardy things like Chicago-Kent is so much more respected around the country because it is ranked 60-80 than a t3 school like Montana. I would actually say that the Montana grad (granted they had realistic expectations) would have an easier time finding a good job and have a better QOL living in Montana with a low COL rather than toughing it out in Chicago making 50-60k in small law.

[articulably suspect]

Yeah, there's a whole different story behind the rankings after T30ish. I would also include McGeorge on the list due to the fact that it favors well in that market, if you don't mind living in Sacramento. One would think that Seattle U would have a much easier time in that market, considering that there's only one other ABA ls in that market, but it seems that the grads have a more difficult time then I thought. Seattle's a pretty large market, you'd think there would be a shortage of UW grads to fill all those jobs. Obviously Biglaw's entry level lawyers pretty much all come out of UW, but maybe this means there're a lot of godd govt/smaller firm opportunities as a result. Maybe a lot of L&C/UO grads head north too and that's why Seattle has difficult time.

[D. H2Oman]

Why do you think it's hard for people to accept this or see this re: regional schools in less saturated markets. Just to be clear were referring to say NYLS in NY or maybe Catholic in DC, right?

Yep, as well as schools like John Marshall in Chicago, Thomas Jefferson in SanDiego, etc.

The following public t3 and 4 schools are pretty top dogish in their markets:

Ole Miss
Montana
Idaho
Both Dakotas
Wyoming


There are some top dog t3 and 4 private schools where if a student gets a good scholarship they would not be a fool to consider attending:

Maine (although I guess it is now t2 lol)
Drake
Vermont
Franklin Pierce



I used to blindly follow the rankings too, thinking such foolhardy things like Chicago-Kent is so much more respected around the country because it is ranked 60-80 than a t3 school like Montana. I would actually say that the Montana grad (granted they had realistic expectations) would have an easier time finding a good job and have a better QOL living in Montana with a low COL rather than toughing it out in Chicago making 50-60k in small law.

Well stated.

[A'nold]

Yeah, there's a whole different story behind the rankings after T30ish. I would also include McGeorge on the list due to the fact that it favors well in that market, if you don't mind living in Sacramento. One would think that Seattle U would have a much easier time in that market, considering that there's only one other ABA ls in that market, but it seems that the grads have a more difficult time then I thought. Seattle's a pretty large market, you'd think there would be a shortage of UW grads to fill all those jobs. Obviously Biglaw's entry level lawyers pretty much all come out of UW, but maybe this means there're a lot of godd govt/smaller firm opportunities as a result. Maybe a lot of L&C/UO grads head north too and that's why Seattle has difficult time.

The problem with Seattle is that it gets a fair amount of interest from "top school" grads as well across the country. It is pretty much the best place to live (unless you demand 80+ degree weather year round) and people flock here. USC/UCLA/Hastings/Stanford/Berkeley/Davis all seem to do well up here as well as the top students from Oregon, L&C, Idaho, Gonzaga.

[nicolethera7]

I am disgusted by the way people feel so superior on this website. Just because you have a good grade on the lsat and are going to a good school does not make you better than anyone else. I really think this forum could give helpful advice to people seeking a law career, however it has turned into a bunch off ignorant people trying to make themselves feel better by putting other people down. Why don't all of you people that sit on this website writing about absolute meaningless bullshit all the time go out and do something positive for the world, your community, etc. Get a life...and I will see you in the courtroom.

[rondemarino]

I am disgusted by the way people feel so superior on this website. Just because you have a good grade on the lsat and are going to a good school does not make you better than anyone else. I really think this forum could give helpful advice to people seeking a law career, however it has turned into a bunch off ignorant people trying to make themselves feel better by putting other people down. Why don't all of you people that sit on this website writing about absolute meaningless bullshit all the time go out and do something positive for the world, your community, etc. Get a life...and I will see you in the courtroom.

Not sure what you're complaining about. People offered you (courteous) advice in your Nova v. Florida Coastal thread.....

EDIT: If TLS is getting your nerves, good luck in the legal arena.

[General Tso]

I am disgusted by the way people feel so superior on this website. Just because you have a good grade on the lsat and are going to a good school does not make you better than anyone else. I really think this forum could give helpful advice to people seeking a law career, however it has turned into a bunch off ignorant people trying to make themselves feel better by putting other people down. Why don't all of you people that sit on this website writing about absolute meaningless bullshit all the time go out and do something positive for the world, your community, etc. Get a life...and I will see you in the courtroom.

YOU WILL GET IN EVERYWHERE YOU APPLY!!

[Advocate]

Why do you think it's hard for people to accept this or see this re: regional schools in less saturated markets. Just to be clear were referring to say NYLS in NY or maybe Catholic in DC, right?

CUA actually places quite well in DC and the mid-altantic region (but it's T2 not T3/4).

[articulably suspect]

My point is that just on rank alone a school like CUA looks much better than a T3. However, the fact is that a "T2" like C may have a much more difficult time than certain T3s/other T2s because they will be competing against similarly ranked "T2s", T30is schools and T14s in DC and the mid-atlantic. On the otherhand, certain T3's can place much better in their region than many T2's can in their various regions, at least those T2s in heavily saturated markets/regions. I'm not saying that C is not good or can't place its grads in good jobs in and around that region, but it's going to be more difficult than certain other T2s and even T3s may have it in their regions.

[solo_lawyer]

do not go to law school at all unless
1) you get into a top 20-25 ranked school
or
2) you could have gotten into a top 20 school but went elsewhere for a scholarship
or
3)your daddy is a lawyer who will hire you

[jcwilsn1]

do not go to law school at all unless
1) you get into a top 20-25 ranked school
or
2) you could have gotten into a top 20 school but went elsewhere for a scholarship
or
3)your daddy is a lawyer who will hire you

any reason you randomly choose #25? and what are you basing this number off of? reading your blog, you show pure disdain for USNWR. I would never expect you to repeatedly criticize the data of an organization, and then use their data in your law school advice. right?

[articulably suspect]

Where did you go to ls Solo?

[jcwilsn1]

Where did you go to ls Solo?

just got done reading his blog. Sounds like a TTT in a super saturated market like chicago or new york (maybe boston).