How bad of a choice is going to a T4 law school.. Forum

[jtgain]

Okay, I came from a humble upbringing. Sure, I would like to go to Harvard/Yale, etc. but I realize that it probably isn't in the cards. So what is the real deal with going to a T4 law school; specifically Nova Southeastern University (just using that as an example)

So, I won't be a nationally known lawyer, and I won't get appointed to the Supreme Court one day. But can I use that education to get a decent, semi-well paying job as an attorney and live a happy life? Or am I doomed to a life of crippling debt while everyone laughs at me behind my back? Somewhere in between? Thoughts..

[Rsrcht]

If you are going there for sticker price, then you should expect a high level of debt.
Career prospects aren't good right now for anybody. T14 students take priority most of the time and it trickles down.

[puppleberry finn]

.

[Someperson]

Your upbringing, humble or otherwise, is not relevant to your GPA or LSAT, which is how you will get into or be rejected from schools. Additionally, there are schools in between Yale/Harvard and Nova Southeastern University which vary greatly in terms of job prospects.

TITCR.

[James Bond]

How do you go from Harvard and Yale to T4? Whatever happened to 3-100? T3 even? As someone said, there are many schools between those that you listed.

[lyricsoprano]

Nova Southeastern? Only 82% of their graduates are employed within 9 months of graduation, and of that 82%, only 57.7% are employed in law firms. Their bar passage rate is less than 70%. Why even consider it?! Tens of thousands of dollars in debt, and you'll probably spend a long time paying off the loans, given apparent job prospects from there.

Click "ABA school data"
http://officialguide.lsac.org/SearchRes ... px?sid=110

Go to University of FL, Florida State, or U. of Miami.

[James Bond]

Hell I'd go to Stetson above Nova Southeastern. At least it was T1 and Stetson places decently in St. Pete/Tampa

[Rsrcht]

Seriously, don't go T4. It's TTTT

[Z'Barron]

Okay, I came from a humble upbringing. Sure, I would like to go to Harvard/Yale, etc. but I realize that it probably isn't in the cards. So what is the real deal with going to a T4 law school; specifically Nova Southeastern University (just using that as an example)

So, I won't be a nationally known lawyer, and I won't get appointed to the Supreme Court one day. But can I use that education to get a decent, semi-well paying job as an attorney and live a happy life? Or am I doomed to a life of crippling debt while everyone laughs at me behind my back? Somewhere in between? Thoughts..

Well...you're correct on the USSC, but not on the rest. There are many well-paid lawyers, even millionaires, who came from no-name schools. You just have to take a different path. And, there is always the transfer option if you kick 1L ass.

[Z'Barron]

How do you go from Harvard and Yale to T4? Whatever happened to 3-100? T3 even? As someone said, there are many schools between those that you listed.

I think OP just used an extreme example to illustrate a generality. The other schools are redundant. We can cut OP some slack.

[lyricsoprano]

How do you go from Harvard and Yale to T4? Whatever happened to 3-100? T3 even? As someone said, there are many schools between those that you listed.

I think OP just used an extreme example to illustrate a generality. The other schools are redundant. We can cut OP some slack. :wink:

The OP also said this:

specifically Nova Southeastern University (just using that as an example)

He contradicts himself there, saying that he is "specifically" talking about that school, and yet he's only using it as an example. I just took "specifically" and ran with it :)

[cameronfraser88]

CANCEL

[wendyone]

Okay, I'm going to come out and say it.

Fuck the snobs who tell you not to go to school at all.

Fuck them.

Excuse my language. I'm really not a jerk. But it pisses me off.

The amount of arrogance it takes to assume that a person has no options but to attend a t4 because they are in some way intellectually inferior or lazy is unfounded and offensive.

There are many reasons some people don't ace the LSATs.

One very common one is LD. There are plenty of future law students with learning disabilities that do not interfere with their academic abilities as far as research, paper writing, debate, classwork, and even regular testing situations for the most part but for whom certain extreme timed testing conditions are very difficult.

Some of these students choose to disclose their LDs because they can receive accommodations which allow them to equitably take standardized tests and perform to the best of their abilities- this gives these testtakers no advantage over students without LDs- it simply removes their DISADVANTAGE.

However.

Many students rightly assume that LD is looked upon by the elite academic community with a stigma that potentially hurts them more than a low test score would, so they choose to fight it out and take the exam anyway.

There are more of these students than you think there are. High scoring students ignorantly assume that all students who score low do so because of lack of preparation, skill, or inferiority.

Documented learning disability rarely earns a first, much less second thought.

So much for the LSAT as an explanation for why no smart kids are forced to go to t4s.

What about GPA? What's the excuse for that?

Well, what is the excuse?

What in a person's undergrad career could possibly cause them to falter in their grades? Let's see. It could be a variety of different factors. The trauma of a personal assault. The death of a close family member. The diagnosis of a serious illness. A father who is sent to prison. Any or all of these things. Suppose one of these stressful circumstances were to occur but the child should choose to continue to attend school rather than face the full impact of these terrible events. Their grades will suffer. It is the child's own choice. You may feel free to blame them. But you may also feel like a little bit of an asshole calling them lazy, especially when they're struggling through all of this at an Ivy league and you're praising a kid who's earning straight As at what you would consider a TTT undergrad.

So it's 5 or six years later and the kid has grown up and wants to get past whatever bad stuff kept him down in undergrad, and fulfill his full potential, the hard work and brains that got him into that Ivy school in the first place. He applies to law school.

The LD holds him down pretty hard, and his LSAT score is flat out bad. He decides that to disclose his LD along with his GPA would be one two many indicators that he couldn't handle schoolwork, despite his stellar grad school performance. He was pretty disheartened when he realized that working his ass off to get his masters didn't account for shit in his law school application.

So what he had to present was a terrible UGPA, a terrible LSAT score, a great grad gpa, a decent resume, glowing letters of recommendation, and the realization that the only two factors that matter are the UGPA and the LSAT score.

Of course the kid is only going to get into a tier 4.

Whether or not you think the kid deserves a chance to prove himself, he's probably smarter than most of the kids at most of the schools above him, he has four years more work and life experience than most of them, he's been through a hell of a lot of shit to get where he is, but none of it is the type of stuff you can write about in an essay that law schools like to read about. No one wants to read about surviving a rape or seeing your brother get shot or dealing with a severe anxiety disorder or a family member being put on trial for a violent crime.

This kid is going to law school because he has every right to go to law school, and he's going to a tier 4 because in his circumstances, no other school is going to give him a chance.

He's not an idiot, but he can't go back in time and do his undergrad when his world wasn't falling apart around him.

He's not stupid, but he can't take the LSAT without accommodations and score within a range that reflects his capabilities.

It just works out that way for him.

I'm sorry.

I just feel very strongly about this. GO to law school. If you only get into a t4, go to a t4. If you get into a t3, go to a t3. If you get into a t2, go to a t2.

But if the only school willing to recognize that not every student is the average student, that there are no special circumstances, that nothing goes horribly wrong sometimes and that most importantly because this none of the rest matters if this does not hold true

STUDENTS DO NOT DESERVE A SECOND CHANCE TO PROVE THEMSELVES

then damn, kid, go to the t4 school.

Go, kick ass, transfer up if you can, work your way up in the world, and tell anyone who encourages you to quit to go to hell.

For the love of god, do not quit.

I'm sorry, I've just read one too many of these posts today.

[im_blue]

Okay, I'm going to come out and say it.

Fuck the snobs who tell you not to go to school at all.

Fuck them.

Excuse my language. I'm really not a jerk. But it pisses me off.

The amount of arrogance it takes to assume that a person has no options but to attend a t4 because they are in some way intellectually inferior or lazy is unfounded and offensive.

There are many reasons some people don't ace the LSATs.

One very common one is LD. There are plenty of future law students with learning disabilities that do not interfere with their academic abilities as far as research, paper writing, debate, classwork, and even regular testing situations for the most part but for whom certain extreme timed testing conditions are very difficult.

Some of these students choose to disclose their LDs because they can receive accommodations which allow them to equitably take standardized tests and perform to the best of their abilities- this gives these testtakers no advantage over students without LDs- it simply removes their DISADVANTAGE.

However.

Many students rightly assume that LD is looked upon by the elite academic community with a stigma that potentially hurts them more than a low test score would, so they choose to fight it out and take the exam anyway.

There are more of these students than you think there are. High scoring students ignorantly assume that all students who score low do so because of lack of preparation, skill, or inferiority.

Documented learning disability rarely earns a first, much less second thought.

So much for the LSAT as an explanation for why no smart kids are forced to go to t4s.

What about GPA? What the excuse for that?

Well, what is the excuse?

What in a person's undergrad career could possibly cause them to falter in their grades? Let's see. It could be a variety of different factors. The trauma of a personal assault. The death of a close family member. The diagnosis of a serious illness. A father who is sent to prison. Any or all of these things. Suppose one of these stressful circumstances were to occur but the child should choose to continue to attend school rather than face the full impact of these terrible events. Their grades will suffer. It is the child's own choice. You may feel free to blame them. But you may also feel like a little bit of an asshole calling them lazy, especially when they're struggling through all of this at an Ivy league and you're praising a kid who's earning straight As at what you would consider a TTT undergrad.

So it's 5 or six years later and the kid has grown up and wants to get past whatever bad stuff kept him down in undergrad, and fulfill his full potential, the hard work and brains that got him into that Ivy school in the first place. He applies to law school.

The LD holds him down pretty hard, and his LSAT score is flat out bad. He decides that to disclose his LD along with his GPA would be one two many indicators that he couldn't handle schoolwork, despite his stellar grad school performance. He was pretty disheartened when he realized that working his ass off to get his masters didn't account for shit in his law school application.

So what he had to present was a terrible UGPA, a terrible LSAT score, a great grad gpa, a decent resume, glowing letters of recommendation, and the realization that the only two factors that matter are the UGPA and the LSAT score.

Of course the kid is only going to get into a tier 4.

Whether or not you think the kid deserves a chance to prove himself, he's probably smarter than most of the kids at most of the schools above him, he has four years more work and life experience than most of them, he's been through a hell of a lot of shit to get where he is, but none of it is the type of stuff you can write about in an essay that law schools like to read about. No one wants to read about surviving a rape or seeing your brother get shot or dealing with a severe anxiety disorder or a family member being put on trial for a violent crime.

This kid is going to law school because he has every right to go to law school, and he's going to a tier 4 because in his circumstances, no other school is going to give him a chance.

He's not an idiot, but he can't go back in time and do his undergrad when his world wasn't falling apart around him.

He's not stupid, but he can't take the LSAT without accommodations and score within a range that reflects his capabilities.

It just works out that way for him.

I'm sorry.

I just feel very strongly about this. GO to law school. If you only get into a t4, go to a t4. If you get into a t3, go to a t3. If you get into a t2, go to a t2.

But if the only school willing to recognize that not every student is the average student, that there are no special circumstances, that nothing goes horribly wrong sometimes and that most importantly because this none of the rest matters if this does not hold true

STUDENTS DO NOT DESERVE A SECOND CHANCE TO PROVE THEMSELVES

then damn, kid, go to the t4 school.

Go, kick ass, transfer up if you can, work your way up in the world, and tell anyone who encourages you to quit to go to hell.

For the love of god, do not quit.

I'm sorry, I've just read one too many of these posts today.

Yeah, everyone deserves the chance to piss away $150,000 on a worthless investment. You're goddamn right that's everyone's right! Hell, ABA should start opening T5 schools to fill all the demand from kids who deserve a second chance.

[wendyone]

Yeah, everyone deserves the chance to piss away $150,000 on a worthless investment. You're goddamn right that's everyone's right! Hell, ABA should start opening T5 schools to fill all the demand from kids who deserve a second chance.

Sorry, kid, but an investment is worth exactly as much as the investor, no more and no less. It's exactly this sort of ignorant attitude that keeps the output from tier one schools mediocre.

Too many intelligent, capable people get frightened or bullied out of even trying because they didn't coast in on easy street.

[cameronfraser88]

Maybe their LD would inhibit them from doing their job correctly. Maybe schools also give you the chance to write addendum for things like death in the family in regards to a shitty GPA.

[wendyone]

Maybe their LD would inhibit them from doing their job correctly. Maybe schools also give you the chance to write addendum for things like death in the family in regards to a shitty GPA.

They do. I don't know how seriously schools really take addenda honestly, if it's not just to explain a single anomaly. And if the LD, as I specified, applies solely to timed exams, I don't see how it would interfere with work-

unless the job is lifetime standardized test taker.

But you illustrate exactly why I mentioned those test takers choose not to disclose ADD for example. It's not something that keeps a person from doing a super high stress, high demand, 100% on task 70-80 hour a week job. But exams are difficult.

[wendyone]

Hmmm, I feel bad for ranting now.

I stand by my point though, which is that everyone has their own circumstances, people who go to t4s are NOT all idiots, some of them do end up being very successful, it IS much harder but you should be used to that by now if you've been out of college for any time at all which is likely if you are going to a t4, and in addition, there are a handful of students from most t4s every year who transfer up and outshine the bottom students in t3, t2, and occasionally t1 schools.

Even t14.

Don't put your money on that, because it's not all that common, and you'd have to do your homework and have a master plan, a shitload of diligence, and a bit of luck as well.

And it really doesn't hurt if you're a certifiable genius.

I personally have THREE friends who attended t4 schools on the east coast and are now working with competitive salaries in Boston and New York firms.

So if it never happens, it never happens but with three exceptions.

[cameronfraser88]

What LD apply ONLY to standardized tests and to nothing else?

[leobowski]

.

[wendyone]

What LD apply ONLY to standardized tests and to nothing else?

What other life experiences do you know that sit you down for 8 hours and time you on staring at a piece of paper with only one 15 minute break in between? Where you can't use adaptive strategies like speaking words aloud or at least forming the words silently on lips, tapping fingers or feet, using larger print or papers with larger spaces between lines or questions, or the ability to stand or stretch when needed?

Even in schools, it is a legal requirement to provide these accommodations, and they do. The problem isn't test taking once you're in school. The problem is the stigma attached that prevents people from getting in.

But more importantly, do you really want to make the argument that Americans with disabilities should be denied equitable educational opportunities?

Really?

[cameronfraser88]

What LD apply ONLY to standardized tests and to nothing else?

What other life experiences do you know that sit you down for 8 hours and time you on staring at a piece of paper with only one 15 minute break in between? Where you can't use adaptive strategies like speaking words aloud or at least forming the words silently on lips, tapping fingers or feet, using larger print or papers with larger spaces between lines or questions, or the ability to stand or stretch when needed?

Even in schools, it is a legal requirement to provide these accommodations, and they do. The problem isn't test taking once you're in school. The problem is the stigma attached that prevents people from getting in.

But more importantly, do you really want to make the argument that Americans with disabilities should be denied equitable educational opportunities?

Really?

First of all the test isn't 8 hours long. You don't have time to stand or stretch when needed because most people need the entire time they are taking the test. I'm not saying they should be denied equitable educational opportunities, I'm just saying they shouldn't be held to a different standard than everyone for a disorders that constitute the most common mis diagnosis's out there. Do you realize how easy it is for someone to go to a doctor and convince them within 20 minutes they have a LD? If LSAC accommodated that then I guarantee there would be a lot of individuals with LD all of the sudden.

[TonyDigital]

I might eventually be going to a Tier 4 school and wouldn't mind..it dominates moot court competitions and likewise is ranked top 5 I believe for litigation. Anyhow...there are people that say anything out of Tier 1 is garbage. But you can find success stories at any level. Off the top of my head, James Carville graduated from LSU Law and one of the newest US Congressmen, Joseph Cao, graduated from Loyola New Orleans (Tier 3).

If you really think coming from a Tier 4 school will hinder you from reaching YOUR potential...maybe you don't have what it takes to be the next success story. I think truly successfuly people will succeed in a number of ways...whether coming from a top school like U of Texas or a T4 like Texas Southern for example. Obviously, a top school like UT will open many many more doors for you. But with the right amount of determination and hard work...you can open some doors on your own that might be closed to some of your classmates.

[D. H2Oman]

Going to a T4 could work out for you, but it is a huge risk. If you go to an unranked school, try to find one that has its own market and is cheap. (Montana, Mississippi, etc)

Do not end up in 6 figures of debt with only a degree from a school like Pace or NYLS to show for it. It is a horrible choice for 90%+ of the people who make it.

[cfishy305]

What LD apply ONLY to standardized tests and to nothing else?

What other life experiences do you know that sit you down for 8 hours and time you on staring at a piece of paper with only one 15 minute break in between? Where you can't use adaptive strategies like speaking words aloud or at least forming the words silently on lips, tapping fingers or feet, using larger print or papers with larger spaces between lines or questions, or the ability to stand or stretch when needed?

Even in schools, it is a legal requirement to provide these accommodations, and they do. The problem isn't test taking once you're in school. The problem is the stigma attached that prevents people from getting in.

But more importantly, do you really want to make the argument that Americans with disabilities should be denied equitable educational opportunities?

Really?

One time I flew from Miami to London and challenged myself to do 40 sudoku puzzles ranging in difficulty and read Animal Farm cover to cover and no bathroom breaks. I made it to 5 pages left when we landed... it was harder than the LSAT... and, I ate a Chipotle Burrito before taking off. So you can imagine what the shit at Heathrow was like. hothothothothot