Low Low Low

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nealric

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby nealric » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:18 am

I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.

kitchen

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 9:50 am

Dcc617 wrote:
Johnnybgoode92 wrote:
Dcc617 wrote:This is a thread where all the lawyers and law students are telling OP that their plan is bad, while some 0Ls do the opposite.


I'm not an 0L bud. He said he wants to go to school asap, he shouldn't sit out a cycle or waste his time studying the LSAT when he has the score and everything needed to go already


Well then, pal, you have even less of an excuse to be giving such bad advice. You're encouraging OP to possibly ruin his or her life. I don't know if it's malicious or if you're somehow that dense.

OP, you don't understand how legal hiring works or how the legal market is. Your options now are bad. Only a fool would take the sort of gamble you're thinking of. I understand it's your dream, but if that's really true then take the time to maximize your chance to succeed. There's no rush to start law school, especially when your options are so bad.


Well I am not a fool, but I have made a few gambles. I have been put in multiple positions where people have said like you " don't do that You'll never make it" etc. And have made it through fine. I do understand how the legal market. I have basically been awarded jobs from family friends as soon as I finish law school and pass the bar. And ne er said I would take their advice, I am retaking the LSAT... so 138 will not be my final score.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:01 am

totesTheGoat wrote:
kitchen wrote:
totesTheGoat wrote:
Johnnybgoode92 wrote:
nixy wrote:
Johnnybgoode92 wrote:
nixy wrote:The phrase was “a law school worth attending.”


Any ABAlaw school gives you a chance at being a lawyer. It's up to you and your work ethic.

Having “a chance” at being a lawyer doesn’t necessarily make a school worth attending. What matters is how big that chance is and how much it costs. Most people aren’t going to want to spend a lot of money on, say, a 5% chance to be “a lawyer” - most are going to want a better chance, and at being some specific kind of lawyer.


That's why I said ABA. People gave me flack for my decision but a good portion still becomes lawyers.


Here is why that is shit advice. If OP follows their dreams like you suggest and goes to Southern (https://www.lstreports.com/schools/southern/), they have a 57% likelihood of passing the bar, and a 46% chance of passing the first time. That's pathetic.

They have a 45.6% chance of landing a full-time legal job on graduation. That's harrowing.

They have a 94.1% chance of paying sticker, which in their specific situation isn't the end of the world, but it's worth considering when it comes to the value they put on their benefactor's money.

They have a 1.2% chance of ending up at a law firm with 50+ attorneys, and a 13.1% chance of ending up at any law firm at all.

OP could spend 8 months studying their ass off, get the score up in the mid-160s, and have a fighting chance (https://mylsn.info/8orkpv/) at places like Emory, UGA, UF, Tulane, etc.


The bar statistics are a little off-putting, but I'm not completely Stressed about landing a job after graduation. Of course, I'll work my ass off to be in the best position regardless, but I do have multiple family friends that are lawyers, and I have already worked for a lawyer during undergrad, and when I had to leave due to scheduling conflicts He sent my resume to a few lawyers and judges. I also work part-time at a country club and more connections have been made there. and they are actually able to see me and my work ethic. So with that, I will not be as stressed about finding a job after graduation, wherever I graduate from. I don't want anyone to think that by saying this means that I just plan on slacking and not caring, I still will work my ass off, but worst case scenario if I absolutely "can't " find a job, I'll have one



There's an active thread in one of the forums that talks about how networking isn't necessarily enough. It may be worth a read. I don't necessarily agree with the OP that networking doesn't matter, but I think you're a bit overconfident about how your connections are going to pull through for you. As I said before, you're in a different position due to having school paid for, but you're still sacrificing 3 years of hard effort and lost salary just to rely on your connections to get you a job. If they don't come through (for one of a variety of reasons) you're all sorts of screwed.


I don't want to seem overconfident, but I am confident. I've been through alot and shouldn't even be where I am today, but being confident and not accepting things when people claim you are destined to fail has pulled me through ( along with hard work of course) I don't mean to say that I will absolutely land a job with the people I know ( although they have said it) but they will know others etc. But I am also a firm believer in having multiple streams of income so although Law school is my main plan my major allows me some room if I weren't to land a job right a way. I also have a license so I would not be struggling

kitchen

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:05 am

nealric wrote:I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.


Winging it had nothing to do with my work ethic. I know everyone freaks out about it, so I decided to go into it with no expectations. I simply wanted to see what to expect. And maybe it sounds crazy to you all, but thats how I chose to do it. Also I am taking a prep course and studying diligently. My plan is to take it in November and maybe January.

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nealric

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby nealric » Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:49 am

kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.


Winging it had nothing to do with my work ethic. I know everyone freaks out about it, so I decided to go into it with no expectations. I simply wanted to see what to expect. And maybe it sounds crazy to you all, but thats how I chose to do it. Also I am taking a prep course and studying diligently. My plan is to take it in November and maybe January.


At the very least, it speaks to a lack of proper due diligence. That score is going to stick around on all of your applications. If you wanted to see what to expect, there are many opportunities to take a timed practice test under simulated test conditions.

I'm not saying this to berate you, but to encourage you to start asking the tough questions and doing the work before you make big decisions. What's done is done on the LSAT, but don't make the same mistake of winging it in the application process. It would behoove you to be strategic and methodical with the law school process. At the very least, you should not be applying for matriculation next fall. It is already too late for an ideal application.

kitchen

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:18 am

nealric wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.


Winging it had nothing to do with my work ethic. I know everyone freaks out about it, so I decided to go into it with no expectations. I simply wanted to see what to expect. And maybe it sounds crazy to you all, but thats how I chose to do it. Also I am taking a prep course and studying diligently. My plan is to take it in November and maybe January.


At the very least, it speaks to a lack of proper due diligence. That score is going to stick around on all of your applications. If you wanted to see what to expect, there are many opportunities to take a timed practice test under simulated test conditions.

I'm not saying this to berate you, but to encourage you to start asking the tough questions and doing the work before you make big decisions. What's done is done on the LSAT, but don't make the same mistake of winging it in the application process. It would behoove you to be strategic and methodical with the law school process. At the very least, you should not be applying for matriculation next fall. It is already too late for an ideal application.


Will I have the absolute perfect GPA or LSAT? NO, But I will be applying for this upcoming fall. When I decided to take the LSAT at that time I was still young minded. I had not been through what I have been through now. I will not wing the application process, I have already started to talk to southern. when I made this post it was not asking my chances I had looked them up I already knew I didn't put myself in a great situation. I already knew that I need to retake the LSAT. I came here to hear about some other schools to consider. I know i have to study my ass of for a better LSAT score and I will, but I didn't come this far just to come.

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nealric

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby nealric » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:24 am

kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.


Winging it had nothing to do with my work ethic. I know everyone freaks out about it, so I decided to go into it with no expectations. I simply wanted to see what to expect. And maybe it sounds crazy to you all, but thats how I chose to do it. Also I am taking a prep course and studying diligently. My plan is to take it in November and maybe January.


At the very least, it speaks to a lack of proper due diligence. That score is going to stick around on all of your applications. If you wanted to see what to expect, there are many opportunities to take a timed practice test under simulated test conditions.

I'm not saying this to berate you, but to encourage you to start asking the tough questions and doing the work before you make big decisions. What's done is done on the LSAT, but don't make the same mistake of winging it in the application process. It would behoove you to be strategic and methodical with the law school process. At the very least, you should not be applying for matriculation next fall. It is already too late for an ideal application.


Will I have the absolute perfect GPA or LSAT? NO, But I will be applying for this upcoming fall. When I decided to take the LSAT at that time I was still young minded. I had not been through what I have been through now. I will not wing the application process, I have already started to talk to southern. when I made this post it was not asking my chances I had looked them up I already knew I didn't put myself in a great situation. I already knew that I need to retake the LSAT. I came here to hear about some other schools to consider. I know i have to study my ass of for a better LSAT score and I will, but I didn't come this far just to come.


There are no schools worth considering without a substantially better LSAT score on the books. I'm sorry this forum isn't telling you what you want to hear, but we are giving honest and informed answers to honest questions.

That being said, the mistakes you are planning are yours to make. I hope you beat the odds.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:34 am

nealric wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.


Winging it had nothing to do with my work ethic. I know everyone freaks out about it, so I decided to go into it with no expectations. I simply wanted to see what to expect. And maybe it sounds crazy to you all, but thats how I chose to do it. Also I am taking a prep course and studying diligently. My plan is to take it in November and maybe January.


At the very least, it speaks to a lack of proper due diligence. That score is going to stick around on all of your applications. If you wanted to see what to expect, there are many opportunities to take a timed practice test under simulated test conditions.

I'm not saying this to berate you, but to encourage you to start asking the tough questions and doing the work before you make big decisions. What's done is done on the LSAT, but don't make the same mistake of winging it in the application process. It would behoove you to be strategic and methodical with the law school process. At the very least, you should not be applying for matriculation next fall. It is already too late for an ideal application.


Will I have the absolute perfect GPA or LSAT? NO, But I will be applying for this upcoming fall. When I decided to take the LSAT at that time I was still young minded. I had not been through what I have been through now. I will not wing the application process, I have already started to talk to southern. when I made this post it was not asking my chances I had looked them up I already knew I didn't put myself in a great situation. I already knew that I need to retake the LSAT. I came here to hear about some other schools to consider. I know i have to study my ass of for a better LSAT score and I will, but I didn't come this far just to come.


There are no schools worth considering without a substantially better LSAT score on the books. I'm sorry this forum isn't telling you what you want to hear, but we are giving honest and informed answers to honest questions.

That being said, the mistakes you are planning are yours to make. I hope you beat the odds.



Are you not reading? I don't plan to go anywhere with a 138...I am retaking the test. Meaning with a better LSAT score what schools should I look at .... I'm fine with honesty but the posts aren't even answering my questions. everyone is saying" retake the LSAT" which I already stated that I was.
Also If retaking the LSAT is what you consider a mistake then you are right, it is mine to make. As for beating the odds, I have, and I will.
Thanks anyway though

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby QContinuum » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:27 pm

kitchen wrote:Well I am not a fool, but I have made a few gambles. I have been put in multiple positions where people have said like you " don't do that You'll never make it" etc. And have made it through fine.


You realize, of course, that winning the lottery one time does not guarantee you'll win the lottery again the next time you play. Likewise, making it through tough situations in the past doesn't mean you're somehow guaranteed to get a good outcome coming out of a T3 law school. It sounds like you think you have some kind of special luck or reality distortion field protecting you.

kitchen wrote:I do understand how the legal market. I have basically been awarded jobs from family friends as soon as I finish law school and pass the bar.


Did these family friends say, "kitchen, I'm willing to hire you as a full-time lawyer as soon as you pass the bar" (critical parts bolded)? (And if so, did they give you any idea of what kind of salary to expect? It's not unheard of for solos to expect new grads to work for free or very low pay while they're being trained up.)

Or did they say something more along the lines of, "kitchen, you're a great guy, you've made it through a lot. There's no way you won't be able to find a job! Lots of the lawyers/judges I know would love to hire someone like you." Because that kind of rah-rah, feel-good sentiment is (unfortunately) meaningless and should not be relied on.

kitchen wrote: Meaning with a better LSAT score what schools should I look at


That depends on what LSAT score you end up getting this time round. The higher your LSAT score, the better the caliber of school you should target.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby albanach » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:40 pm

kitchen wrote:Are you not reading? I don't plan to go anywhere with a 138...I am retaking the test. Meaning with a better LSAT score what schools should I look at ....


The schools you should be looking at have already been highlighted. In the very first reply to your very first post.

What seems incongruent here is that your stated desire is to "Help people". How is it that you plan to help people as a small-firm lawyer as opposed to the multitude of other ways you can help people?

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:41 pm

QContinuum wrote:
kitchen wrote:Well I am not a fool, but I have made a few gambles. I have been put in multiple positions where people have said like you " don't do that You'll never make it" etc. And have made it through fine.


You realize, of course, that winning the lottery one time does not guarantee you'll win the lottery again the next time you play. Likewise, making it through tough situations in the past doesn't mean you're somehow guaranteed to get a good outcome coming out of a T3 law school. It sounds like you think you have some kind of special luck or reality distortion field protecting you.

kitchen wrote:I do understand how the legal market. I have basically been awarded jobs from family friends as soon as I finish law school and pass the bar.


Did these family friends say, "kitchen, I'm willing to hire you as a full-time lawyer as soon as you pass the bar" (critical parts bolded)? (And if so, did they give you any idea of what kind of salary to expect? It's not unheard of for solos to expect new grads to work for free or very low pay while they're being trained up.)

Or did they say something more along the lines of, "kitchen, you're a great guy, you've made it through a lot. There's no way you won't be able to find a job! Lots of the lawyers/judges I know would love to hire someone like you." Because that kind of rah-rah, feel-good sentiment is (unfortunately) meaningless and should not be relied on.

kitchen wrote: Meaning with a better LSAT score what schools should I look at


That depends on what LSAT score you end up getting this time round. The higher your LSAT score, the better the caliber of school you should target.



For starters
I never said it was a guarantee, but your analogy is slightly flawed. If you take a test and realize how to study are you not in a better position to take future tests since you know what works for you? I've been through alot and have had people not believe I would make it through as do most of you, but because I know myself and what I am capable of and how to navigate it I can and will get through. Look maybe you guys don't have faith? or Don't believe in God? personally, I do and he has gotten me through numerous tough times that I wasn't supposed to make it through. So I believe and I know he will guide me and help with this situation as well. Also, I have never said it HAS to be a T3 school... The only school I have specifically mentioned is Southern, beyond that as I am relatively open

They have told me specifically that they would hire me. That is if I don't have any other plans etc.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby JohnnieSockran » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:51 pm

kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:i Can not delay graduation for a few reasons. but I won't go into that. Also the only way I would "miss" anything and would havwe to stay is if I Failed any of these classes. Anyway as mentioned I will graduate in December. That 138 score was last June? I believe so in 2017. I know my LSAT will improve I am working on that. And I don't really need money, My full law school will be paid for. I would just like a little money to live off of, but it isn't really necessary


I'm not sure that's how scholarships work. I'm pretty sure if the school costs let's say $30k/year (just for an example), and you have a $5k scholarship, they automatically apply it and send you a bill for $25k instead of $30k. It's not like they give you the $5k scholarship as cash to spend.

Unless you have family willing to pay your $30k/year, and they'd be willing to give you the $5k in cash that you'd be saving them.

But then again, if your family is willing to throw away $30k/year at the schools you'd likely be getting into, maybe they'll just give you another $20k for living expenses, because it would equally be throwing money away.

I think it's pretty unlikely that you'll bring your score up from 138 into the 160s, so serious question, why are you set on going to law school?



ummm I've had scholarships for undergrad so unless they're different it goes like this

if school costs $30k and you have scholarship and whatever else many that brings is $35k all of it goes to the school, they take the $30k out and you get the $5k refund, but I've never been to law school and all so it might be different. And you are also assuming I am speaking of family money. its not my families money, but My entire school tuition will be paid for, my family does not have to shell money so the money I make now and family money would take care of living expenses, I would prefer Southern since I wouldn't have to move, but since I don't have to worry about tuition I am not opposed to going elsewhere. Also, 138 to 160, is it a lot of work? yes, can I do it absolutely, just some background: because my GPA was so Low I had to take summer classes this summer, I took 12 hours ( 4 classes) one class was physics ( A) and one was anatomy (B) also I was working 2 part-time jobs, and I took an Intersession class about a week after those ended. All I'm saying is If I put my mind to it I will do it. My 138 I hadn't studied or taken a standardized test in years No doubt in my mind it will go up. Also I answered the " why are you set on law school" in the post above


That's all well and fine, but the point I was trying to make is that you are a very unlikely candidate for a full ride scholarship at any school. Kudos if you have a passion for the law and still decide you want to go to law school once your LSAT is strong enough to get you in somewhere decent, I just don't think it's likely that you'll land a scholarship that is greater than the cost of tuition.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby JohnnieSockran » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:58 pm

kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.


Winging it had nothing to do with my work ethic. I know everyone freaks out about it, so I decided to go into it with no expectations. I simply wanted to see what to expect. And maybe it sounds crazy to you all, but thats how I chose to do it. Also I am taking a prep course and studying diligently. My plan is to take it in November and maybe January.


At the very least, it speaks to a lack of proper due diligence. That score is going to stick around on all of your applications. If you wanted to see what to expect, there are many opportunities to take a timed practice test under simulated test conditions.

I'm not saying this to berate you, but to encourage you to start asking the tough questions and doing the work before you make big decisions. What's done is done on the LSAT, but don't make the same mistake of winging it in the application process. It would behoove you to be strategic and methodical with the law school process. At the very least, you should not be applying for matriculation next fall. It is already too late for an ideal application.


Will I have the absolute perfect GPA or LSAT? NO, But I will be applying for this upcoming fall. When I decided to take the LSAT at that time I was still young minded. I had not been through what I have been through now. I will not wing the application process, I have already started to talk to southern. when I made this post it was not asking my chances I had looked them up I already knew I didn't put myself in a great situation. I already knew that I need to retake the LSAT. I came here to hear about some other schools to consider. I know i have to study my ass of for a better LSAT score and I will, but I didn't come this far just to come.


What are your practice scores looking like for the LSAT now? Trying to matriculate next fall will likely not make you a strong candidate. Starting at a 138, it's going to be decently tough just to crack into the mid 150s on your next time around if you're not already close.

kitchen

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:09 pm

JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:i Can not delay graduation for a few reasons. but I won't go into that. Also the only way I would "miss" anything and would havwe to stay is if I Failed any of these classes. Anyway as mentioned I will graduate in December. That 138 score was last June? I believe so in 2017. I know my LSAT will improve I am working on that. And I don't really need money, My full law school will be paid for. I would just like a little money to live off of, but it isn't really necessary


I'm not sure that's how scholarships work. I'm pretty sure if the school costs let's say $30k/year (just for an example), and you have a $5k scholarship, they automatically apply it and send you a bill for $25k instead of $30k. It's not like they give you the $5k scholarship as cash to spend.

Unless you have family willing to pay your $30k/year, and they'd be willing to give you the $5k in cash that you'd be saving them.

But then again, if your family is willing to throw away $30k/year at the schools you'd likely be getting into, maybe they'll just give you another $20k for living expenses, because it would equally be throwing money away.

I think it's pretty unlikely that you'll bring your score up from 138 into the 160s, so serious question, why are you set on going to law school?



ummm I've had scholarships for undergrad so unless they're different it goes like this

if school costs $30k and you have scholarship and whatever else many that brings is $35k all of it goes to the school, they take the $30k out and you get the $5k refund, but I've never been to law school and all so it might be different. And you are also assuming I am speaking of family money. its not my families money, but My entire school tuition will be paid for, my family does not have to shell money so the money I make now and family money would take care of living expenses, I would prefer Southern since I wouldn't have to move, but since I don't have to worry about tuition I am not opposed to going elsewhere. Also, 138 to 160, is it a lot of work? yes, can I do it absolutely, just some background: because my GPA was so Low I had to take summer classes this summer, I took 12 hours ( 4 classes) one class was physics ( A) and one was anatomy (B) also I was working 2 part-time jobs, and I took an Intersession class about a week after those ended. All I'm saying is If I put my mind to it I will do it. My 138 I hadn't studied or taken a standardized test in years No doubt in my mind it will go up. Also I answered the " why are you set on law school" in the post above


That's all well and fine, but the point I was trying to make is that you are a very unlikely candidate for a full ride scholarship at any school. Kudos if you have a passion for the law and still decide you want to go to law school once your LSAT is strong enough to get you in somewhere decent, I just don't think it's likely that you'll land a scholarship that is greater than the cost of tuition.


You must not have read my posts... but, let me say it a little louder for the people in the back. I DO NOT NEED A SCHOLARSHIP, let alone a full ride. due to certain circumstances, my school will be paid for

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:12 pm

JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.


Winging it had nothing to do with my work ethic. I know everyone freaks out about it, so I decided to go into it with no expectations. I simply wanted to see what to expect. And maybe it sounds crazy to you all, but thats how I chose to do it. Also I am taking a prep course and studying diligently. My plan is to take it in November and maybe January.


At the very least, it speaks to a lack of proper due diligence. That score is going to stick around on all of your applications. If you wanted to see what to expect, there are many opportunities to take a timed practice test under simulated test conditions.

I'm not saying this to berate you, but to encourage you to start asking the tough questions and doing the work before you make big decisions. What's done is done on the LSAT, but don't make the same mistake of winging it in the application process. It would behoove you to be strategic and methodical with the law school process. At the very least, you should not be applying for matriculation next fall. It is already too late for an ideal application.


Will I have the absolute perfect GPA or LSAT? NO, But I will be applying for this upcoming fall. When I decided to take the LSAT at that time I was still young minded. I had not been through what I have been through now. I will not wing the application process, I have already started to talk to southern. when I made this post it was not asking my chances I had looked them up I already knew I didn't put myself in a great situation. I already knew that I need to retake the LSAT. I came here to hear about some other schools to consider. I know i have to study my ass of for a better LSAT score and I will, but I didn't come this far just to come.


What are your practice scores looking like for the LSAT now? Trying to matriculate next fall will likely not make you a strong candidate. Starting at a 138, it's going to be decently tough just to crack into the mid 150s on your next time around if you're not already close.


I haven't taken many practices test yet, just focusing on understanding the different sections, but unfortunately, the last one I took it was 153

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby nealric » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:23 pm

kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:
kitchen wrote:
nealric wrote:I have trouble reconciling the claim of a tremendous work ethic with a statement that the same person just "winged it" on the LSAT. Studying for the LSAT is probably the easiest part of the law school process.

Someone scoring a cold 138 should devote a minimum of 500 hours to study. Study for the thing until you have dreams about the LSAT and can rattle off all the types logic games by memory. Put that work ethic to work now, not after you've graduated from a bottom-tier school struggling to find gainful employment.


Winging it had nothing to do with my work ethic. I know everyone freaks out about it, so I decided to go into it with no expectations. I simply wanted to see what to expect. And maybe it sounds crazy to you all, but thats how I chose to do it. Also I am taking a prep course and studying diligently. My plan is to take it in November and maybe January.


At the very least, it speaks to a lack of proper due diligence. That score is going to stick around on all of your applications. If you wanted to see what to expect, there are many opportunities to take a timed practice test under simulated test conditions.

I'm not saying this to berate you, but to encourage you to start asking the tough questions and doing the work before you make big decisions. What's done is done on the LSAT, but don't make the same mistake of winging it in the application process. It would behoove you to be strategic and methodical with the law school process. At the very least, you should not be applying for matriculation next fall. It is already too late for an ideal application.


Will I have the absolute perfect GPA or LSAT? NO, But I will be applying for this upcoming fall. When I decided to take the LSAT at that time I was still young minded. I had not been through what I have been through now. I will not wing the application process, I have already started to talk to southern. when I made this post it was not asking my chances I had looked them up I already knew I didn't put myself in a great situation. I already knew that I need to retake the LSAT. I came here to hear about some other schools to consider. I know i have to study my ass of for a better LSAT score and I will, but I didn't come this far just to come.


There are no schools worth considering without a substantially better LSAT score on the books. I'm sorry this forum isn't telling you what you want to hear, but we are giving honest and informed answers to honest questions.

That being said, the mistakes you are planning are yours to make. I hope you beat the odds.



Are you not reading? I don't plan to go anywhere with a 138...I am retaking the test. Meaning with a better LSAT score what schools should I look at .... I'm fine with honesty but the posts aren't even answering my questions. everyone is saying" retake the LSAT" which I already stated that I was.
Also If retaking the LSAT is what you consider a mistake then you are right, it is mine to make. As for beating the odds, I have, and I will.
Thanks anyway though


It's impossible to make recommendations without an actual score. If your plan is to get a job through the good 'ol boy network, go to the same school as the good 'ol boys you intend to rely on. But, be wary- a few family friends giving you happy talk does not necessarily mean they are going to offer you a job, or if they do that they will offer one on terms you would be happy with.

Really, we aren't saying these things out of hostility or elitism. Many of the people posting in these threads (myself included) are practicing lawyers who have been through the gauntlet and seen others struggle.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby JohnnieSockran » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:35 pm

kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:i Can not delay graduation for a few reasons. but I won't go into that. Also the only way I would "miss" anything and would havwe to stay is if I Failed any of these classes. Anyway as mentioned I will graduate in December. That 138 score was last June? I believe so in 2017. I know my LSAT will improve I am working on that. And I don't really need money, My full law school will be paid for. I would just like a little money to live off of, but it isn't really necessary


I'm not sure that's how scholarships work. I'm pretty sure if the school costs let's say $30k/year (just for an example), and you have a $5k scholarship, they automatically apply it and send you a bill for $25k instead of $30k. It's not like they give you the $5k scholarship as cash to spend.

Unless you have family willing to pay your $30k/year, and they'd be willing to give you the $5k in cash that you'd be saving them.

But then again, if your family is willing to throw away $30k/year at the schools you'd likely be getting into, maybe they'll just give you another $20k for living expenses, because it would equally be throwing money away.

I think it's pretty unlikely that you'll bring your score up from 138 into the 160s, so serious question, why are you set on going to law school?



ummm I've had scholarships for undergrad so unless they're different it goes like this

if school costs $30k and you have scholarship and whatever else many that brings is $35k all of it goes to the school, they take the $30k out and you get the $5k refund, but I've never been to law school and all so it might be different. And you are also assuming I am speaking of family money. its not my families money, but My entire school tuition will be paid for, my family does not have to shell money so the money I make now and family money would take care of living expenses, I would prefer Southern since I wouldn't have to move, but since I don't have to worry about tuition I am not opposed to going elsewhere. Also, 138 to 160, is it a lot of work? yes, can I do it absolutely, just some background: because my GPA was so Low I had to take summer classes this summer, I took 12 hours ( 4 classes) one class was physics ( A) and one was anatomy (B) also I was working 2 part-time jobs, and I took an Intersession class about a week after those ended. All I'm saying is If I put my mind to it I will do it. My 138 I hadn't studied or taken a standardized test in years No doubt in my mind it will go up. Also I answered the " why are you set on law school" in the post above


That's all well and fine, but the point I was trying to make is that you are a very unlikely candidate for a full ride scholarship at any school. Kudos if you have a passion for the law and still decide you want to go to law school once your LSAT is strong enough to get you in somewhere decent, I just don't think it's likely that you'll land a scholarship that is greater than the cost of tuition.


You must not have read my posts... but, let me say it a little louder for the people in the back. I DO NOT NEED A SCHOLARSHIP, let alone a full ride. due to certain circumstances, my school will be paid for


But you said you were hoping for a scholarship for living expense money. I'm telling you I don't think that will happen, but do whatever you want.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby QContinuum » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:36 pm

kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:ummm I've had scholarships for undergrad so unless they're different it goes like this

if school costs $30k and you have scholarship and whatever else many that brings is $35k all of it goes to the school, they take the $30k out and you get the $5k refund


That's all well and fine, but the point I was trying to make is that you are a very unlikely candidate for a full ride scholarship at any school. Kudos if you have a passion for the law and still decide you want to go to law school once your LSAT is strong enough to get you in somewhere decent, I just don't think it's likely that you'll land a scholarship that is greater than the cost of tuition.


You must not have read my posts... but, let me say it a little louder for the people in the back. I DO NOT NEED A SCHOLARSHIP, let alone a full ride. due to certain circumstances, my school will be paid for


I think Johnnie read and understood your posts just fine. We get that you're wealthy enough to afford law school at sticker. But you raised the hypothetical situation of getting a $5k refund with a $35k scholly and $30k tuition. Johnnie pointed out that, given your GPA, you're a very unlikely candidate for a full-ride (let alone more than full-ride) scholly at any school.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:38 pm

JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:i Can not delay graduation for a few reasons. but I won't go into that. Also the only way I would "miss" anything and would havwe to stay is if I Failed any of these classes. Anyway as mentioned I will graduate in December. That 138 score was last June? I believe so in 2017. I know my LSAT will improve I am working on that. And I don't really need money, My full law school will be paid for. I would just like a little money to live off of, but it isn't really necessary


I'm not sure that's how scholarships work. I'm pretty sure if the school costs let's say $30k/year (just for an example), and you have a $5k scholarship, they automatically apply it and send you a bill for $25k instead of $30k. It's not like they give you the $5k scholarship as cash to spend.

Unless you have family willing to pay your $30k/year, and they'd be willing to give you the $5k in cash that you'd be saving them.

But then again, if your family is willing to throw away $30k/year at the schools you'd likely be getting into, maybe they'll just give you another $20k for living expenses, because it would equally be throwing money away.

I think it's pretty unlikely that you'll bring your score up from 138 into the 160s, so serious question, why are you set on going to law school?



ummm I've had scholarships for undergrad so unless they're different it goes like this

if school costs $30k and you have scholarship and whatever else many that brings is $35k all of it goes to the school, they take the $30k out and you get the $5k refund, but I've never been to law school and all so it might be different. And you are also assuming I am speaking of family money. its not my families money, but My entire school tuition will be paid for, my family does not have to shell money so the money I make now and family money would take care of living expenses, I would prefer Southern since I wouldn't have to move, but since I don't have to worry about tuition I am not opposed to going elsewhere. Also, 138 to 160, is it a lot of work? yes, can I do it absolutely, just some background: because my GPA was so Low I had to take summer classes this summer, I took 12 hours ( 4 classes) one class was physics ( A) and one was anatomy (B) also I was working 2 part-time jobs, and I took an Intersession class about a week after those ended. All I'm saying is If I put my mind to it I will do it. My 138 I hadn't studied or taken a standardized test in years No doubt in my mind it will go up. Also I answered the " why are you set on law school" in the post above


That's all well and fine, but the point I was trying to make is that you are a very unlikely candidate for a full ride scholarship at any school. Kudos if you have a passion for the law and still decide you want to go to law school once your LSAT is strong enough to get you in somewhere decent, I just don't think it's likely that you'll land a scholarship that is greater than the cost of tuition.


You must not have read my posts... but, let me say it a little louder for the people in the back. I DO NOT NEED A SCHOLARSHIP, let alone a full ride. due to certain circumstances, my school will be paid for


But you said you were hoping for a scholarship for living expense money. I'm telling you I don't think that will happen, but do whatever you want.


loan or scholarship, there are some that are need based, private, etc.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby QContinuum » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:44 pm

kitchen wrote:
QContinuum wrote:You realize, of course, that winning the lottery one time does not guarantee you'll win the lottery again the next time you play. Likewise, making it through tough situations in the past doesn't mean you're somehow guaranteed to get a good outcome coming out of a T3 law school. It sounds like you think you have some kind of special luck or reality distortion field protecting you.

For starters
I never said it was a guarantee, but your analogy is slightly flawed. If you take a test and realize how to study are you not in a better position to take future tests since you know what works for you?


So your belief is that you'll ace law school exams because you're good at taking tests? Even assuming you're good at taking tests (your LSAT performance - both on the real thing and on your latest practice test - would suggest otherwise, but whatever), law school exams are nothing like college exams. It's impossible to predict, ex ante, law school grades. It's why TLS has always advised students to assume median performance. You simply can't go in expecting to outperform a majority of your classmates.

kitchen wrote:I've been through alot and have had people not believe I would make it through as do most of you, but because I know myself and what I am capable of and how to navigate it I can and will get through.


No one ITT is saying that you aren't tough, or that you haven't overcome obstacles in the past. We are just saying that your numbers are objectively bad, that Southern's employment numbers are also objectively bad, and that therefore it's a bad idea, from a risk/reward perspective, for you to apply to law school this cycle.

kitchen wrote:Look maybe you guys don't have faith? or Don't believe in God? personally, I do and he has gotten me through numerous tough times that I wasn't supposed to make it through. So I believe and I know he will guide me and help with this situation as well.


If you think you have the big guy on your side, it's hard to argue with that.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby JohnnieSockran » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:51 pm

kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:
JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:i Can not delay graduation for a few reasons. but I won't go into that. Also the only way I would "miss" anything and would havwe to stay is if I Failed any of these classes. Anyway as mentioned I will graduate in December. That 138 score was last June? I believe so in 2017. I know my LSAT will improve I am working on that. And I don't really need money, My full law school will be paid for. I would just like a little money to live off of, but it isn't really necessary


I'm not sure that's how scholarships work. I'm pretty sure if the school costs let's say $30k/year (just for an example), and you have a $5k scholarship, they automatically apply it and send you a bill for $25k instead of $30k. It's not like they give you the $5k scholarship as cash to spend.

Unless you have family willing to pay your $30k/year, and they'd be willing to give you the $5k in cash that you'd be saving them.

But then again, if your family is willing to throw away $30k/year at the schools you'd likely be getting into, maybe they'll just give you another $20k for living expenses, because it would equally be throwing money away.

I think it's pretty unlikely that you'll bring your score up from 138 into the 160s, so serious question, why are you set on going to law school?



ummm I've had scholarships for undergrad so unless they're different it goes like this

if school costs $30k and you have scholarship and whatever else many that brings is $35k all of it goes to the school, they take the $30k out and you get the $5k refund, but I've never been to law school and all so it might be different. And you are also assuming I am speaking of family money. its not my families money, but My entire school tuition will be paid for, my family does not have to shell money so the money I make now and family money would take care of living expenses, I would prefer Southern since I wouldn't have to move, but since I don't have to worry about tuition I am not opposed to going elsewhere. Also, 138 to 160, is it a lot of work? yes, can I do it absolutely, just some background: because my GPA was so Low I had to take summer classes this summer, I took 12 hours ( 4 classes) one class was physics ( A) and one was anatomy (B) also I was working 2 part-time jobs, and I took an Intersession class about a week after those ended. All I'm saying is If I put my mind to it I will do it. My 138 I hadn't studied or taken a standardized test in years No doubt in my mind it will go up. Also I answered the " why are you set on law school" in the post above


That's all well and fine, but the point I was trying to make is that you are a very unlikely candidate for a full ride scholarship at any school. Kudos if you have a passion for the law and still decide you want to go to law school once your LSAT is strong enough to get you in somewhere decent, I just don't think it's likely that you'll land a scholarship that is greater than the cost of tuition.


You must not have read my posts... but, let me say it a little louder for the people in the back. I DO NOT NEED A SCHOLARSHIP, let alone a full ride. due to certain circumstances, my school will be paid for


But you said you were hoping for a scholarship for living expense money. I'm telling you I don't think that will happen, but do whatever you want.


loan or scholarship, there are some that are need based, private, etc.


If you already know all of the answers (which it seems you do), and your mind is made up (which it seems it is), and don't want to hear any dissenting opinions, then we can't help you.

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 1:57 pm

Can not delay graduation for a few reasons. but I won't go into that. Also the only way I would "miss" anything and would havwe to stay is if I Failed any of these classes. Anyway as mentioned I will graduate in December. That 138 score was last June? I believe so in 2017. I know my LSAT will improve I am working on that. And I don't really need money, My full law school will be paid for. I would just like a little money to live off of, but it isn't really necessary[/quote]

I'm not sure that's how scholarships work. I'm pretty sure if the school costs let's say $30k/year (just for an example), and you have a $5k scholarship, they automatically apply it and send you a bill for $25k instead of $30k. It's not like they give you the $5k scholarship as cash to spend.

Unless you have family willing to pay your $30k/year, and they'd be willing to give you the $5k in cash that you'd be saving them.

But then again, if your family is willing to throw away $30k/year at the schools you'd likely be getting into, maybe they'll just give you another $20k for living expenses, because it would equally be throwing money away.

I think it's pretty unlikely that you'll bring your score up from 138 into the 160s, so serious question, why are you set on going to law school?[/quote]


ummm I've had scholarships for undergrad so unless they're different it goes like this

if school costs $30k and you have scholarship and whatever else many that brings is $35k all of it goes to the school, they take the $30k out and you get the $5k refund, but I've never been to law school and all so it might be different. And you are also assuming I am speaking of family money. its not my families money, but My entire school tuition will be paid for, my family does not have to shell money so the money I make now and family money would take care of living expenses, I would prefer Southern since I wouldn't have to move, but since I don't have to worry about tuition I am not opposed to going elsewhere. Also, 138 to 160, is it a lot of work? yes, can I do it absolutely, just some background: because my GPA was so Low I had to take summer classes this summer, I took 12 hours ( 4 classes) one class was physics ( A) and one was anatomy (B) also I was working 2 part-time jobs, and I took an Intersession class about a week after those ended. All I'm saying is If I put my mind to it I will do it. My 138 I hadn't studied or taken a standardized test in years No doubt in my mind it will go up. Also I answered the " why are you set on law school" in the post above[/quote]

That's all well and fine, but the point I was trying to make is that you are a very unlikely candidate for a full ride scholarship at any school. Kudos if you have a passion for the law and still decide you want to go to law school once your LSAT is strong enough to get you in somewhere decent, I just don't think it's likely that you'll land a scholarship that is greater than the cost of tuition.[/quote]

You must not have read my posts... but, let me say it a little louder for the people in the back. I DO NOT NEED A SCHOLARSHIP, let alone a full ride. due to certain circumstances, my school will be paid for[/quote]

But you said you were hoping for a scholarship for living expense money. I'm telling you I don't think that will happen, but do whatever you want.[/quote]

loan or scholarship, there are some that are need based, private, etc.[/quote]

If you already know all of the answers (which it seems you do), and your mind is made up (which it seems it is), and don't want to hear any dissenting opinions, then we can't help you.[/quote]


i preseneted you all with what i wanted

Go to law school in the fall
what school should I look at etc.
I do not know all the answers which is why I came here and you and others decided to decipher how I would pay for school, which is irrelevant to this discussion. I am fine with dissenting opinions, but I already stated what my plans are and that I just needed to see what other schools to look at..

It seems you don't like dissenting opinions as when presented with the information about how my I plan to pay for school it was a little unsettling

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby JohnnieSockran » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:00 pm

kitchen wrote:It seems you don't like dissenting opinions as when presented with the information about how my I plan to pay for school it was a little unsettling


What do I care about your opinions? Best of luck with all of your endeavors.

To answer what I can see is the only question, as others have already answered, you won't be able to come up with a school list that is meaningful until you have an official LSAT score much higher than 138.

kitchen

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby kitchen » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:06 pm

JohnnieSockran wrote:
kitchen wrote:It seems you don't like dissenting opinions as when presented with the information about how my I plan to pay for school it was a little unsettling


What do I care about your opinions? Best of luck with all of your endeavors.

To answer what I can see is the only question, as others have already answered, you won't be able to come up with a school list that is meaningful until you have an official LSAT score much higher than 138.



Exactly my point I don't understand why you are so concerned with my finances.

Anyway, that still doesn't answer the question, but thank you Mr. Sockran.

I'll be sure to update when I am accepted.

thank you all

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Re: Low Low Low

Postby Dcc617 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:08 pm

Okay, OP, some background on me. I originally was going to go to law school directly out of undergrad. It's what my parents wanted and it's what I told all of my friends that I was going to do. Thankfully I waited because my options weren't as good as they could have been. Instead I served in the army for about 4 years. Now I am a 3L at a T14. I finished my summer associate position at a large law firm in Chicago, where I will be returning after I graduate.

I am going to give you my thoughts on what you should do. You can take my advice or not.

1. You need to have an idea of what you want to do when you graduate. It doesn't have to be fully fleshed out, but you should have a sense of if you want to pursue biglaw, work at a public defender's office somewhere, do a non-profit in Louisiana, etc.

2. Then, you should look at schools where your goal, whatever it is, is attainable for the median student. The reason that I suggest median outcomes is because you have no idea how you'll do in law school. Everyone is working hard, people generally aren't dumb, etc. Further, you may or may not have the knack for law school exams right out of the gate. Plus, grading can be super random. You can't count on outcomes that only 10% of the class gets, because there's only a 10% chance you'll be there.

3. For your target schools, figure out what LSAT score you need to get in, preferably with money. Your GPA is very low, below the 25th percentile for most schools by a lot. As such, you'll likely need an LSAT score above the 75% percentile to get into your target schools. You say that money does not matter, but it should unless whoever is funding you is a multi-millionaire. Law schools are expensive. Even cheap ones at sticker cost between $200 and $300K total cost of attendance.

4. Once you have your goal LSAT score, study and retake until you get that score. You have unlimited takes and unlimited time to go to law school. There is no reason to rush it until you have every single point you can get. A single point can save you tens or even hundreds of thousands of dollars, or move you up an entire echelon of law schools.

5. A high LSAT score is the best way to balance your low GPA. The second best way is to put distance between yourself and the GPA. Work for a few years, possibly in the field of law that you are interested in. Working gives schools something to look at besides your GPA, gives you the chance to network, lets you try out whatever field before you invest in law school, and lets you save up some money and work a little.

6. Once you have an appropriate LSAT score and a few years of work experience, get your applications to your target law schools together. Make sure all of your materials are dialed in. Get great recommendations from professors and bosses. Then, as soon as applications open, apply.

7. Hopefully you'll end up with several good options at reasonable prices. Then pick the school that best balances career opportunities with cost.

Now, it is totally possible to ignore all that advice and apply right now. It's possible doing so will work out for you. However, I don't see the upside of taking all that risk when you have the opportunity to mitigate substantially by taking the advice in this thread. It is your life though, so good luck.



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