California

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devilblue
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California

Postby devilblue » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:17 pm

So, I have a friend who is going to law school next year. He just took the September LSAT and will be applying next month. He has a 3.8X undergraduate GPA and I believe will have between a 168-171 LSAT score. Given his numbers and his pre-law-school work experience, I am confident about his ability to get into the lower T14 schools, so let's please not debate that.

He plans on applying to UVA, Duke, Georgetown, Cal, and maybe one or two more. I want to be able to properly advise him but have this question for you all to help with that. He is from the midwest and interested in going west, but his connections are all in DC. Is the California market hard to crack for a student who attends Cal with no other ties to California? How do students from Cal do in the east coast cities (mainly NY and DC). I am worried about what will happen to him if he goes to Cal and gets shut out for having no ties, because in my experience it doesn't seem like many Cal grads come east where the zillions of jobs are. Further, I am only familiar with how Duke places in California. How do some of these other T14 schools on the east coast place there?

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UVA2B
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Re: California

Postby UVA2B » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:32 pm

Your questions are kind of all over the map, but I'll try to parse the essentials of the questions, which come down to how Cal can place on the East Coast, and conversely, how do the east coast schools place in California without California ties, right? How are all his/her connections in DC if he/she's from the Midwest? Like their entire adult life/work has all been in DC and all of their friends are there, and their ties to the Midwest have all dried up?

Anyway, given my understanding of your question, it's really one that should be understood in context. If you friend really wants California, Boalt is obviously the best bet, and when it comes to NYC/DC, ties are demonstrably less important. There will be less firms at Boalt's OCI from NYC/DC than there will be at UVA, Duke, or GULC (I'm really more just guessing on this, but it seems pretty intuitive to me), but that doesn't mean they have less pull in those markets. A strong student from Boalt can get a job in NYC/DC, just like a strong student from Duke and UVA can get California.

The best way to understand this, in my personal opinion, is that the primary consideration between these schools should be a balancing test of goals and cost. If Boalt is much cheaper and your friend wants DC, it's probably still worth it to go to Boalt. And if Duke/UVA (I'll include GULC here too since you mentioned it, but I hesitate to include them together) are much cheaper and your friend really wants California, it's probably still worth it to go to UVA/Duke instead of going to Boalt. If the costs are close, then they should really decide how badly they want California. They can get California from all of these schools, and a lack of ties to California will hurt at the margins, but if they do well, they can get it.

Until they actually have these options with costs attached to them, this entire question is all kind of moot though.

devilblue
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Re: California

Postby devilblue » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:44 pm

devilblue wrote:So, I have a friend who is going to law school next year. He just took the September LSAT and will be applying next month. He has a 3.8X undergraduate GPA and I believe will have between a 168-171 LSAT score. Given his numbers and his pre-law-school work experience, I am confident about his ability to get into the lower T14 schools, so let's please not debate that.

He plans on applying to UVA, Duke, Georgetown, Cal, and maybe one or two more. I want to be able to properly advise him but have this question for you all to help with that. He is from the midwest and interested in going west, but his connections are all in DC. Is the California market hard to crack for a student who attends Cal with no other ties to California? How do students from Cal do in the east coast cities (mainly NY and DC). I am worried about what will happen to him if he goes to Cal and gets shut out for having no ties, because in my experience it doesn't seem like many Cal grads come east where the zillions of jobs are. Further, I am only familiar with how Duke places in California. How do some of these other T14 schools on the east coast place there?


For future responders, apparently my questions are "all over the map" so I'll highlight them in bold for you in the above. I don't know how to make them less clear.

devilblue
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Re: California

Postby devilblue » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:49 pm

UVA2B wrote:Your questions are kind of all over the map, but I'll try to parse the essentials of the questions, which come down to how Cal can place on the East Coast, and conversely, how do the east coast schools place in California without California ties, right? How are all his/her connections in DC if he/she's from the Midwest? Like their entire adult life/work has all been in DC and all of their friends are there, and their ties to the Midwest have all dried up?

Anyway, given my understanding of your question, it's really one that should be understood in context. If you friend really wants California, Boalt is obviously the best bet, and when it comes to NYC/DC, ties are demonstrably less important. There will be less firms at Boalt's OCI from NYC/DC than there will be at UVA, Duke, or GULC (I'm really more just guessing on this, but it seems pretty intuitive to me), but that doesn't mean they have less pull in those markets. A strong student from Boalt can get a job in NYC/DC, just like a strong student from Duke and UVA can get California.

The best way to understand this, in my personal opinion, is that the primary consideration between these schools should be a balancing test of goals and cost. If Boalt is much cheaper and your friend wants DC, it's probably still worth it to go to Boalt. And if Duke/UVA (I'll include GULC here too since you mentioned it, but I hesitate to include them together) are much cheaper and your friend really wants California, it's probably still worth it to go to UVA/Duke instead of going to Boalt. If the costs are close, then they should really decide how badly they want California. They can get California from all of these schools, and a lack of ties to California will hurt at the margins, but if they do well, they can get it.

Until they actually have these options with costs attached to them, this entire question is all kind of moot though.


This entire question isn't mood until there are actual options. I don't want to go all federal courts on you, but the functional requisites of adjudication aren't implicated here because the questions I have asked do not actually require the factual predicate of options with costs on the table. I have asked questions that have nothing to do with the person's outcomes. I have asked general questions about placement of schools in geographic locations. That has nothing to do with options and costs.

The person has lived in the midwest his entire life but most of his professional contacts are in DC (think about it, what might be in DC that creates this situation?). I know you're just trying to help, but you've taken what are meant to be questions about markets and schools and turned it into a "this person should go here" question, and that's really not what I asked.

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UVA2B
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Re: California

Postby UVA2B » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:54 pm

devilblue wrote:
devilblue wrote:So, I have a friend who is going to law school next year. He just took the September LSAT and will be applying next month. He has a 3.8X undergraduate GPA and I believe will have between a 168-171 LSAT score. Given his numbers and his pre-law-school work experience, I am confident about his ability to get into the lower T14 schools, so let's please not debate that.

He plans on applying to UVA, Duke, Georgetown, Cal, and maybe one or two more. I want to be able to properly advise him but have this question for you all to help with that. He is from the midwest and interested in going west, but his connections are all in DC. Is the California market hard to crack for a student who attends Cal with no other ties to California? How do students from Cal do in the east coast cities (mainly NY and DC). I am worried about what will happen to him if he goes to Cal and gets shut out for having no ties, because in my experience it doesn't seem like many Cal grads come east where the zillions of jobs are. Further, I am only familiar with how Duke places in California. How do some of these other T14 schools on the east coast place there?


For future responders, apparently my questions are "all over the map" so I'll highlight them in bold for you in the above. I don't know how to make them less clear.


Was my answer not responsive to those questions? I didn't mean that you didn't have questions in your post, but just that it's pretty unclear what exactly your friend's goals are. They want California, but they're worried about how Boalt places in NYC/DC. They are worried about UVA/Duke/GULC placing in CA, which they really shouldn't if they are a cheaper option than Boalt. They all place similarly in terms of hiring in every one of these markets. Hiring at this level of school isn't regional and it's not strictly beholden to USNWR rankings. They are treated as peers in hiring, and any placement discrepancies you see in NYC, DC, or CA between these schools is likely more geographic coincidence than it is ability to place in that market. So Boalt are sending way more graduates to CA than UVA/Duke/GULC, but that's more because people that want CA usually pick Boalt over the other schools, not because Boalt grads are treated as better than UVA/Duke/GULC in CA.

Btw, if you want people to try to help you understand hiring in these markets, you should probably avoid being this condescending. I just meant the goals/worries/concerns aren't exactly clear, and tried to answer in a way that allowed for you to clarify if I was reading your post incorrectly.

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UVA2B
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Re: California

Postby UVA2B » Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:55 pm

devilblue wrote:
UVA2B wrote:Your questions are kind of all over the map, but I'll try to parse the essentials of the questions, which come down to how Cal can place on the East Coast, and conversely, how do the east coast schools place in California without California ties, right? How are all his/her connections in DC if he/she's from the Midwest? Like their entire adult life/work has all been in DC and all of their friends are there, and their ties to the Midwest have all dried up?

Anyway, given my understanding of your question, it's really one that should be understood in context. If you friend really wants California, Boalt is obviously the best bet, and when it comes to NYC/DC, ties are demonstrably less important. There will be less firms at Boalt's OCI from NYC/DC than there will be at UVA, Duke, or GULC (I'm really more just guessing on this, but it seems pretty intuitive to me), but that doesn't mean they have less pull in those markets. A strong student from Boalt can get a job in NYC/DC, just like a strong student from Duke and UVA can get California.

The best way to understand this, in my personal opinion, is that the primary consideration between these schools should be a balancing test of goals and cost. If Boalt is much cheaper and your friend wants DC, it's probably still worth it to go to Boalt. And if Duke/UVA (I'll include GULC here too since you mentioned it, but I hesitate to include them together) are much cheaper and your friend really wants California, it's probably still worth it to go to UVA/Duke instead of going to Boalt. If the costs are close, then they should really decide how badly they want California. They can get California from all of these schools, and a lack of ties to California will hurt at the margins, but if they do well, they can get it.

Until they actually have these options with costs attached to them, this entire question is all kind of moot though.


This entire question isn't mood until there are actual options. I don't want to go all federal courts on you, but the functional requisites of adjudication aren't implicated here because the questions I have asked do not actually require the factual predicate of options with costs on the table. I have asked questions that have nothing to do with the person's outcomes. I have asked general questions about placement of schools in geographic locations. That has nothing to do with options and costs.

The person has lived in the midwest his entire life but most of his professional contacts are in DC (think about it, what might be in DC that creates this situation?). I know you're just trying to help, but you've taken what are meant to be questions about markets and schools and turned it into a "this person should go here" question, and that's really not what I asked.


Ok, I'm done with you. Good luck getting anything remotely helpful when you're a pedantic ass.

cavalier1138
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Re: California

Postby cavalier1138 » Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:35 pm

This was a weird way to open a thread and a really hostile way to respond to the offered suggestions.

Your friend should, in order:
-Stop relying on you to do everything for him.
-Start taking responsibility for asking his own questions.
-Ask his own questions, because it seems like you're interjecting your own questions in the mix (which is what leads to the confusion about what your friend wants to do).
-???
-Profit

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UVA2B
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Re: California

Postby UVA2B » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:10 pm

SmokeytheBear wrote:.


Because I want to be genuinely helpful to people coming with questions, I'm going to do you one last favor and tag someone who understands CA hiring and might be willing to offer you advice, and can speak to how these schools are treated there. They likely can't speak to how these schools are seen in the other markets, but NYC/DC are both less ties-sensitive, so that's decidedly less important apparently in the question you're trying to ask.

But seriously, reexamine how you approach these things. I genuinely tried to help, and you were a D bag. If I was off on anything, you could've just pointed out where my advice was off, or refined what you wanted this thread to be like better. And, for the record, this question is basically a choosing a law school thread disguised as a discussion of markets, but those questions so deeply overlap in the problem you posed that you're pretty much off from the very start.

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Sprout
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Re: California

Postby Sprout » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:30 pm

devilblue wrote:So, I have a friend who is going to law school next year. He just took the September LSAT and will be applying next month. He has a 3.8X undergraduate GPA and I believe will have between a 168-171 LSAT score. Given his numbers and his pre-law-school work experience, I am confident about his ability to get into the lower T14 schools, so let's please not debate that.

He plans on applying to UVA, Duke, Georgetown, Cal, and maybe one or two more. I want to be able to properly advise him but have this question for you all to help with that. He is from the midwest and interested in going west, but his connections are all in DC. Is the California market hard to crack for a student who attends Cal with no other ties to California? How do students from Cal do in the east coast cities (mainly NY and DC). I am worried about what will happen to him if he goes to Cal and gets shut out for having no ties, because in my experience it doesn't seem like many Cal grads come east where the zillions of jobs are. Further, I am only familiar with how Duke places in California. How do some of these other T14 schools on the east coast place there?

You sound like you're your friend.

And also, if you kill it at Gould, Boalt, or mayyyyybe UCLA you can get a job prob in a lot of places including DC and NYC, (read USC, Berkeley, UCLA). I have a lot of friends from Boalt that have done it but been at the tippy top of the class. Even at Gould or UCLA though, that's gonna be rougher. Your market will likely need to be more local, in CA somewhere via networking + strong grades.

post script your "friend" should do his own research

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UVA2B
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Re: California

Postby UVA2B » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:32 pm

Sprout wrote:
devilblue wrote:So, I have a friend who is going to law school next year. He just took the September LSAT and will be applying next month. He has a 3.8X undergraduate GPA and I believe will have between a 168-171 LSAT score. Given his numbers and his pre-law-school work experience, I am confident about his ability to get into the lower T14 schools, so let's please not debate that.

He plans on applying to UVA, Duke, Georgetown, Cal, and maybe one or two more. I want to be able to properly advise him but have this question for you all to help with that. He is from the midwest and interested in going west, but his connections are all in DC. Is the California market hard to crack for a student who attends Cal with no other ties to California? How do students from Cal do in the east coast cities (mainly NY and DC). I am worried about what will happen to him if he goes to Cal and gets shut out for having no ties, because in my experience it doesn't seem like many Cal grads come east where the zillions of jobs are. Further, I am only familiar with how Duke places in California. How do some of these other T14 schools on the east coast place there?

You sound like you're your friend.

And also, if you kill it at Gould, Boalt, or mayyyyybe UCLA you can get a job prob in a lot of places including DC and NYC, (read USC, Berkeley, UCLA). I have a lot of friends from Boalt that have done it but been at the tippy top of the class. Even at Gould or UCLA though, that's gonna be rougher. Your market will likely need to be more local, in CA somewhere via networking + strong grades.

post script your "friend" should do his own research


TBF, after looking into post history, this is a Duke 2L, so it might actually be a friend in this case.

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Sprout
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Re: California

Postby Sprout » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:36 pm

Fair enough. OP- I have alot of friends that went to LS in CA and almost all of them, but for the ones that graduated from Boalt, work in CA.


That being said, I also have a friend from Hastings who now clerks for the 9th circuit.

I dk why though he would go to a likely very expensive law school/cost of living in CA if he didnt want to practice there. Gl

eta: NY doesnt give a fuck about ties

dabigchina
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Re: California

Postby dabigchina » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:51 pm

Going to Boalt = CA ties.

NY doesn't care about ties. It might be harder to get a NYC v5 from Boalt than from CCN, but it's far from impossible to get Biglaw in NY from Boalt.

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sodomojo
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Re: California

Postby sodomojo » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:31 pm

Sprout wrote:And also, if you kill it at Gould, Boalt, or mayyyyybe UCLA

Why the differentiation between USC and UCLA?

Wakhancorridor
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Re: California

Postby Wakhancorridor » Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:59 am

sodomojo wrote:
Sprout wrote:And also, if you kill it at Gould, Boalt, or mayyyyybe UCLA

Why the differentiation between USC and UCLA?


Why is Gould getting the 100% and UCLA getting the maybe.. seems like it'd be the opposite right?

jphiggo
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Re: California

Postby jphiggo » Sat Sep 23, 2017 3:09 am

devilblue wrote: I don't want to go all federal courts on you,


lol, just, no.

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Sprout
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Re: California

Postby Sprout » Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:26 am

dabigchina wrote:Going to Boalt = CA ties.

NY doesn't care about ties. It might be harder to get a NYC v5 from Boalt than from CCN, but it's far from impossible to get Biglaw in NY from Boalt.

this

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SmokeytheBear
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Re: California

Postby SmokeytheBear » Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:51 pm

UVA2B wrote:
SmokeytheBear wrote:.


Because I want to be genuinely helpful to people coming with questions, I'm going to do you one last favor and tag someone who understands CA hiring and might be willing to offer you advice, and can speak to how these schools are treated there. They likely can't speak to how these schools are seen in the other markets, but NYC/DC are both less ties-sensitive, so that's decidedly less important apparently in the question you're trying to ask.

But seriously, reexamine how you approach these things. I genuinely tried to help, and you were a D bag. If I was off on anything, you could've just pointed out where my advice was off, or refined what you wanted this thread to be like better. And, for the record, this question is basically a choosing a law school thread disguised as a discussion of markets, but those questions so deeply overlap in the problem you posed that you're pretty much off from the very start.


What UVA has said and what others have said on here is basically right.

But yeah you also seem like a dick, so if you want help, be nicer.




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