T6 v. Trial Advocacy

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 29, 2017 2:52 pm

Local firms tend to be one or some combo of criminal defense, family law, and/or immigration; or labor/employment (representing employees); or wills/trusts/estates; or general civil litigation like insurance, personal injury, construction law. Oh also civil rights (usually suing state/local governments/police/schools, that kind of thing).

A lot of people start their own firm after getting relevant experience somewhere (be a PD/ADA --> go into criminal defense; work at a local firm in whatever practice --> strike out on your own).

(Somewhat scooped.)

Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 2:54 pm

blueapple wrote:People who start their own firms generally tend to practice family law, wills & estates, maybe landlord/tenant, that kind of stuff. Maybe someone who has solo'd or is more familiar than I am can chime in. It involves a lot of hustle and is generally not prestigious but often is interesting in that you are hustling and can be in court a lot if you want to and have a lot of variety in your day, I think.



That sounds like right up my alley. So now my question is. How much will Law school rank play on doing what you have stated? Meaning will graduating from a T14 stack my odds so starting my own firm is easier or that i get more clients?

ETA: What is pay in going this route?
Last edited by Soup2Nuts on Mon May 29, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 2:56 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Local firms tend to be one or some combo of criminal defense, family law, and/or immigration; or labor/employment (representing employees); or wills/trusts/estates; or general civil litigation like insurance, personal injury, construction law. Oh also civil rights (usually suing state/local governments/police/schools, that kind of thing).

A lot of people start their own firm after getting relevant experience somewhere (be a PD/ADA --> go into criminal defense; work at a local firm in whatever practice --> strike out on your own).

(Somewhat scooped.)



So then my question is the same to you as it was to blueapple: How much will Law school rank play on doing what you have stated? Meaning will graduating from a T14 stack my odds so starting my own firm is easier or that i get more clients?

ETA: What is pay in going this route?

grades??
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby grades?? » Mon May 29, 2017 2:58 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Local firms tend to be one or some combo of criminal defense, family law, and/or immigration; or labor/employment (representing employees); or wills/trusts/estates; or general civil litigation like insurance, personal injury, construction law. Oh also civil rights (usually suing state/local governments/police/schools, that kind of thing).

A lot of people start their own firm after getting relevant experience somewhere (be a PD/ADA --> go into criminal defense; work at a local firm in whatever practice --> strike out on your own).

(Somewhat scooped.)



So then my question is the same to you as it was to blueapple: How much will Law school rank play on doing what you have stated? Meaning will graduating from a T14 stack my odds so starting my own firm is easier or that i get more clients?

ETA: What is pay in going this route?


40-50k a year

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 29, 2017 3:15 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Local firms tend to be one or some combo of criminal defense, family law, and/or immigration; or labor/employment (representing employees); or wills/trusts/estates; or general civil litigation like insurance, personal injury, construction law. Oh also civil rights (usually suing state/local governments/police/schools, that kind of thing).

A lot of people start their own firm after getting relevant experience somewhere (be a PD/ADA --> go into criminal defense; work at a local firm in whatever practice --> strike out on your own).

(Somewhat scooped.)



So then my question is the same to you as it was to blueapple: How much will Law school rank play on doing what you have stated? Meaning will graduating from a T14 stack my odds so starting my own firm is easier or that i get more clients?

ETA: What is pay in going this route?

Probably not, depending on your clients, and too variable to tell.

Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 3:21 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Local firms tend to be one or some combo of criminal defense, family law, and/or immigration; or labor/employment (representing employees); or wills/trusts/estates; or general civil litigation like insurance, personal injury, construction law. Oh also civil rights (usually suing state/local governments/police/schools, that kind of thing).

A lot of people start their own firm after getting relevant experience somewhere (be a PD/ADA --> go into criminal defense; work at a local firm in whatever practice --> strike out on your own).

(Somewhat scooped.)



So then my question is the same to you as it was to blueapple: How much will Law school rank play on doing what you have stated? Meaning will graduating from a T14 stack my odds so starting my own firm is easier or that i get more clients?

ETA: What is pay in going this route?

Probably not, depending on your clients, and too variable to tell.


Can you give a range? And what is your opinion on 40-50k?

Npret
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Npret » Mon May 29, 2017 3:23 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:What grade of college are you going to be in next year?


Does it really matter? I have these questions now.

Yes because it's a waste of time dealing with a high school grad who has done no research and has just seen lawyers in tv.

Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 3:24 pm

Npret wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:What grade of college are you going to be in next year?


Does it really matter? I have these questions now.

Yes because it's a waste of time dealing with a high school grad who has done no research and has just seen lawyers in tv.


You are a college grad? Wouldnt you have meant on and not in? Please. Go fuck yourself.

At least be smart enough to be on your p's and q's if you are going to come at me with some bullshit.

Npret
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Npret » Mon May 29, 2017 3:28 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:What grade of college are you going to be in next year?


Does it really matter? I have these questions now.

Yes because it's a waste of time dealing with a high school grad who has done no research and has just seen lawyers in tv.


You are a college grad? Wouldnt you have meant on and not in? Please. Go fuck yourself.

At least be smart enough to be on your p's and q's if you are going to come at me with some bullshit.


So you won't answer? Why should anyone help you then other than boredom?

Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 3:30 pm

Npret wrote:So you won't answer? Why should anyone help you then other than boredom?


ANd if i get my questions and direction because someone is helping me out of boredom what is that to you? You are sitting here with your own thumb up your ass not giving any real advice. At least be productive in your boredom. The fuck.

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stego
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby stego » Mon May 29, 2017 3:48 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:So you won't answer? Why should anyone help you then other than boredom?


ANd if i get my questions and direction because someone is helping me out of boredom what is that to you? You are sitting here with your own thumb up your ass not giving any real advice. At least be productive in your boredom. The fuck.

S2N, I don't necessarily agree with all of the hostility being directed at you but I can kind of understand it. This can feel like a game of 20 questions to people. If you still have 3 years of undergrad to do (iirc you are just starting but have a plan to get it done in 3), then you have plenty of time to hang around here, be patient and find the answers to various things. There is a search function and a lot of past threads that address some of the questions you're asking.

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lymenheimer
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby lymenheimer » Mon May 29, 2017 3:59 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:your assumptions are way off. Maybe you should lurk and learn before sounding like an idiot in front of people. SCOTUS clerks are behind a desk and not all facets of impact lit are in court (many are behind the scenes). So prestige =! Action/"not behind a desk" (or whatever phrase you used)

You want results driven? Open a solo and work on a contingency fee basis. Oh yea, but finish (read:start) UG first. Its kind of a pre-req.



Correct me if im wrong, doesnt invoking discussion promote learning? Thats all Im doing. Im trying to learn and maybe someone else will. Second, I never said anything about prestige. Also, I already stated i am wanting (if i can) to do a solo thing.

Lastly, dont assume fuck all about me. Ive learked plenty. These are questions tailored to me, which is the point of opening a thread? Right? I mean unless i misunderstood what the fuck an actual forum is. Now, if you cant be of assistance, then just stop replying. Thanks.


Actually you did say something about prestige...that you werent chasing it, but that's not nothing. You didnt directly say you were looking for prestige, but you used it as a metric for judging the quality and action of jobs. I was telling you that those jobs are not actiony. The reason you should lurk, exactly what stego said. Most of your questions are answered in threads. Use the search function. And none of your ideas are novel to this board, so get the stick out of your ass like youre better than everyone with your "learked plenty" self. just because you dont like them or dont like the tone doesnt mean my posts arent helpful. I fleshed out your goals to give legal advice rather than just be a nosey douche, didnt I?

Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 4:09 pm

stego wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:So you won't answer? Why should anyone help you then other than boredom?


ANd if i get my questions and direction because someone is helping me out of boredom what is that to you? You are sitting here with your own thumb up your ass not giving any real advice. At least be productive in your boredom. The fuck.

S2N, I don't necessarily agree with all of the hostility being directed at you but I can kind of understand it. This can feel like a game of 20 questions to people. If you still have 3 years of undergrad to do (iirc you are just starting but have a plan to get it done in 3), then you have plenty of time to hang around here, be patient and find the answers to various things. There is a search function and a lot of past threads that address some of the questions you're asking.



Look, there isnt many things that interest me where I can work there for a prolonged period of time. I just get bored. So Id rather either try and find if I like something about law and see how I can incorporate it in my life before I go spending tons and tons of money on something that will end having the same result i get now.

Or find out that there is nothing about it that I can incorporate in my life and try other avenues to make my life better than what it is. Now, this doesnt have to make sense to anyone and people can just tell me to go fuck off and use the search but its not like I just have a whole lot of time to decide, you know life happening and all that.

Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 4:13 pm

lymenheimer wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
lymenheimer wrote:your assumptions are way off. Maybe you should lurk and learn before sounding like an idiot in front of people. SCOTUS clerks are behind a desk and not all facets of impact lit are in court (many are behind the scenes). So prestige =! Action/"not behind a desk" (or whatever phrase you used)

You want results driven? Open a solo and work on a contingency fee basis. Oh yea, but finish (read:start) UG first. Its kind of a pre-req.



Correct me if im wrong, doesnt invoking discussion promote learning? Thats all Im doing. Im trying to learn and maybe someone else will. Second, I never said anything about prestige. Also, I already stated i am wanting (if i can) to do a solo thing.

Lastly, dont assume fuck all about me. Ive learked plenty. These are questions tailored to me, which is the point of opening a thread? Right? I mean unless i misunderstood what the fuck an actual forum is. Now, if you cant be of assistance, then just stop replying. Thanks.


Actually you did say something about prestige...that you werent chasing it, but that's not nothing. You didnt directly say you were looking for prestige, but you used it as a metric for judging the quality and action of jobs. I was telling you that those jobs are not actiony. The reason you should lurk, exactly what stego said. Most of your questions are answered in threads. Use the search function. And none of your ideas are novel to this board, so get the stick out of your ass like youre better than everyone with your "learked plenty" self. just because you dont like them or dont like the tone doesnt mean my posts arent helpful. I fleshed out your goals to give legal advice rather than just be a nosey douche, didnt I?


Lmao, so did you say all this so you could say around your circle of douchey friends "see guys i wasnt a douche to this guy, I fleshed out his goals". Lets not go patting ourselves on the back just yet.

Secondly, i never said anything about your tone or any of the like. I purely addressed the assumptions you made about me and told you that you know fuck all about me. So playing the victim card like i somehow "addressed your tone and didnt like the "facts"" is intellectually dishonest. I did nothing of the sort.

ETA: and if you are so fuckin worried about repeat threads then start going around and telling people to use the search function because you automatically know that "their ideas arent a novel one". Lmfao, you are a grade A fuckhead.

Regarding prestige, everyone uses that metric in the sense we are discussing. Not chasing it and recognizing how it can be beneficial if things go the way I want them are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, I really didnt say anything about prestige when I said im not chasing it. Thats not saying "something" about prestige. I thought you were smart?

IExistedOnceBefore
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby IExistedOnceBefore » Mon May 29, 2017 4:42 pm

It appears you're about to start college? Smartest thing you can do is to get the highest GPA possible. Thats it for now. If you have any community college credits coming in, those will count towards your GPA so plan accordingly. Where you stand and where your priorities lay are going to be very different when you graduate. Thinking about law school is fine, it allows you to lay a good foundation with a good GPA, but you aren't going to be applying for years. Get the best GPA you can, take the LSAT later and score well and go from there.

The legal market is likely to be subtly different when you apply than it is now. So focus on what you can control.

Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 4:51 pm

IExistedOnceBefore wrote:It appears you're about to start college? Smartest thing you can do is to get the highest GPA possible. Thats it for now. If you have any community college credits coming in, those will count towards your GPA so plan accordingly. Where you stand and where your priorities lay are going to be very different when you graduate. Thinking about law school is fine, it allows you to lay a good foundation with a good GPA, but you aren't going to be applying for years. Get the best GPA you can, take the LSAT later and score well and go from there.

The legal market is likely to be subtly different when you apply than it is now. So focus on what you can control.



Thanks for that advice.

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UVA2B
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby UVA2B » Mon May 29, 2017 5:40 pm

I think you're not getting as much advice and discourse as you might like because you're incredibly combative when people go outside of what you consider to be the scope of the discussion, and it's a bit off-putting for the seasoned posters who try their damnedest to be helpful in most circumstances. If you tone down the harsh rebukes of any snarky or snide remarks that will inevitably come up when you're asking questions that have been asked and answered many times on these forums, you're more likely to get continued discussion that will help inform your approach to this career. I mean, you corrected someone's grammar that was likely just a typing error that didn't autocorrect and told them to fuck off. Do you think that person is going to come back with anything other than dismissal of you seeking advice (and just so you know, that particular poster, while perhaps responding sarcastically to your question because it was a bit under-researched and naive, is one of the more helpful, actual practicing attorneys on these forums).

My advice would be as follows:

1. Worry about your college. Do well in classes. Have a good time. Get good grades. When you're ~1 year out from graduating, think long and hard about whether a career in the law is for you. If it is, and you figure out what type of law you actually want to practice, study for and rock the LSAT so you have the option of going to a top notch school or your strong regional in the geographic region you want to practice.

2. Understand something about practicing the law that you might not otherwise realize: most lawyers do become specialized in specific fields of law, rely on doing primarily the work for a few important, high paying clients, and end up focused in a niche area of law. In fact, most attorneys who make partner at law firms do so because an institutional client has come to trust their work in their specific area of law.* And solo practice, while maybe allowing for slight variation because you might help a family with a will one day, and help advise on a divorce the next, and handle an insurance claim by someone in a car accident the day after that, will mostly be fairly simple legal work that won't be highly paid or particularly in the "action."

With that being said, if you are so prone to boredom that you want to do something different every few years, you could consider becoming a JAG, should you decide law school is a career for you. While the work itself won't be demonstrably more variable than being a civilian attorney, you'll at least have the pleasure of moving every couple of years and starting over at a new unit. Given your past military service, that could be a realistic career path that will at least allow for some life variability, if not exactly professional variability.

How you interact with the people around the TLS fora will largely determine how helpful it will be for you, so please just keep that in mind. There are helpful posters in most areas of law and at most of the big law schools and some really helpful posters who went to strong regional schools. All of their opinions and advice will be based on their own experience, and so it will never be entirely complete, but the best way to get the most out of TLS is to not engage it with such hostility. If someone insinuates that you're asking a bad question or that the answer to your question can be easily found here, just take that for what it is and move on. Not every post will answer every one of your questions, nor will the posts be precisely what you're looking for every time, but the reason this community works is because mostly people don't respond to criticism and skepticism of posts without outright hostility.

Anyway, I hope you start looking around more and seeing what advice has been given on the things that interest you about this career, because some of the regular posters have been around long enough that we forget what it was like to not know anything about the legal profession and law school in general, so we occasionally become jaded when it feels like we're answering questions that have been answered many, many times around here. So don't take offense when people respond with sarcasm or even a touch of sass and ridicule. That's just a part of being on this site, for better or for worse.

*ETA: It's obviously not the only reason a lawyer makes partner at a firm, just wanted to make the point of how success in the profession can be based on becoming very good at a narrow part of law

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rpupkin
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby rpupkin » Mon May 29, 2017 6:51 pm

rpupkin wrote:Perhaps a more patient poster will take the time to walk you through your confusion, but I'm not up for it tonight. Best of luck to you.

Surprised and impressed that so many of you volunteered for this futile task.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 29, 2017 7:29 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Local firms tend to be one or some combo of criminal defense, family law, and/or immigration; or labor/employment (representing employees); or wills/trusts/estates; or general civil litigation like insurance, personal injury, construction law. Oh also civil rights (usually suing state/local governments/police/schools, that kind of thing).

A lot of people start their own firm after getting relevant experience somewhere (be a PD/ADA --> go into criminal defense; work at a local firm in whatever practice --> strike out on your own).

(Somewhat scooped.)



So then my question is the same to you as it was to blueapple: How much will Law school rank play on doing what you have stated? Meaning will graduating from a T14 stack my odds so starting my own firm is easier or that i get more clients?

ETA: What is pay in going this route?

Probably not, depending on your clients, and too variable to tell.


Can you give a range? And what is your opinion on 40-50k?

No, because again, it's too variable to tell. $40-$50k is probably accurate for many.




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