T6 v. Trial Advocacy

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Soup2Nuts
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 10:27 am

Nebby wrote:I don't know why you're asking hypotheticals OP.



Not hypothetical in the sense of "who would win goku or superman". Its a legit hypothetical. If for some reason I want to live in Utah (I have no ties there) I want to know the "best" route to take. Why waste money at a T6 (or wherever) if I would still "struggle" to find employment in an area like that. Instead I could go to a much lower ranked school, make connections from people who are in the same "region" and possibly even from Salt Lake City (for example) and come out the same, if not better because of less money spent, than I would going to Yale and trying to break into Utah market.

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sublime
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby sublime » Mon May 29, 2017 10:34 am

Soup2Nuts wrote:
stego wrote:It's probably fair to say that if a T6 is an option you should not be considering Baylor.

Also, Baylor isn't even remotely the best law school in Texas.

As far as rankings being frivolous, that is sort of true. It's sort of silly to rank strong regional schools against each other if they serve different regions. You should pay less attention to USNWR rankings and more attention to the published employment data. What percentage of recent grads are getting certain types of jobs?


Baylor was just a name that happened to be "ranked 3rd" for litigation, which i find interesting (litigation that is). Nothing more.


Also, trial advocacy isn't the same as litigation, particularly in firms. Most private litigation, especially in big firms, doesn't involve advocacy.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 29, 2017 10:45 am

Soup2Nuts wrote:
Nebby wrote:I don't know why you're asking hypotheticals OP.



Not hypothetical. If for some reason I want to live in Utah (I have no ties there) I want to know the "best" route to take. Why waste money at a T6 (or wherever) if I would still "struggle" to find employment in an area like that. Instead I could go to a much lower ranked school, make connections from people who are in the same "region" and possibly even from Salt Lake City (for example) and come out the same, if not better because of less money spent, than I would going to Yale and trying to break into Utah market.

Yes, if you know you want to live in a particular region (and don't plan to move), the strongest regional school, especially for free, is a great option and people here would recommend that. People here can be pessimistic about the idea of using the regional school to create ties where you don't have any - i.e. if you pick up and move to Utah for the purpose of going to school there and working there after law school, despite never having lived in Utah or having any other connections to Utah, the concern is that you will be at a disadvantage compared to the "true" locals who never left or at least already have ties. To some extent this may be true, but (I went to a regional school) you definitely can make connections and meet people and so on by attending a regional school, if you make the effort to network and get good experience while in school.

People who are at T14s will often disapprove of going to a regional school when you don't already have ties there, in part because they're often aiming for biglaw. The biglaw market in regions like SLC/Denver is incredibly small, and those firms will tend to favor the top local students, or T14 students with ties, so non-local T14 grads often get shut out. The flipside to this is that you will need to be one of the top students at the local school to have a shot at biglaw anyway, so you're taking a different kind of risk at the local school. If you're fine with any kind of legal job, then go to the regional school. However, if your primary goal is biglaw over being in a specific region, a T14 school is probably better because it will get you a biglaw job *somewhere.*

The other reason to go to a national-reach school would be if you're aiming for a very specialized, competitive job that generally only hires out of the very top schools. Like, if you want to go into academia, or the highest levels of impact lit/international human rights/specialized policy work, that kind of thing - go to Yale. Of course, if you're aiming for the latter jobs you kind of have to give up most regional preferences anyway because you're going to be chasing the jobs around the country. If you want to stay in Utah you are unlikely to be aiming for either of these things, since those kinds of jobs don't really exist there.

So, yes, if you want to move to some market you have no ties to at all, a lot of people here will tell you not to do that, but you can succeed by going to the local law school. But you have to have realistic goals for the job market for that location, and be pretty confident that you do want to stay there for the foreseeable future (people do move around after law school, but you're going to make it harder for yourself by going to a regional school without ties and then trying to leave that region).

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 11:03 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
Nebby wrote:I don't know why you're asking hypotheticals OP.



Not hypothetical. If for some reason I want to live in Utah (I have no ties there) I want to know the "best" route to take. Why waste money at a T6 (or wherever) if I would still "struggle" to find employment in an area like that. Instead I could go to a much lower ranked school, make connections from people who are in the same "region" and possibly even from Salt Lake City (for example) and come out the same, if not better because of less money spent, than I would going to Yale and trying to break into Utah market.

Yes, if you know you want to live in a particular region (and don't plan to move), the strongest regional school, especially for free, is a great option and people here would recommend that. People here can be pessimistic about the idea of using the regional school to create ties where you don't have any - i.e. if you pick up and move to Utah for the purpose of going to school there and working there after law school, despite never having lived in Utah or having any other connections to Utah, the concern is that you will be at a disadvantage compared to the "true" locals who never left or at least already have ties. To some extent this may be true, but (I went to a regional school) you definitely can make connections and meet people and so on by attending a regional school, if you make the effort to network and get good experience while in school.

People who are at T14s will often disapprove of going to a regional school when you don't already have ties there, in part because they're often aiming for biglaw. The biglaw market in regions like SLC/Denver is incredibly small, and those firms will tend to favor the top local students, or T14 students with ties, so non-local T14 grads often get shut out. The flipside to this is that you will need to be one of the top students at the local school to have a shot at biglaw anyway, so you're taking a different kind of risk at the local school. If you're fine with any kind of legal job, then go to the regional school. However, if your primary goal is biglaw over being in a specific region, a T14 school is probably better because it will get you a biglaw job *somewhere.*

The other reason to go to a national-reach school would be if you're aiming for a very specialized, competitive job that generally only hires out of the very top schools. Like, if you want to go into academia, or the highest levels of impact lit/international human rights/specialized policy work, that kind of thing - go to Yale. Of course, if you're aiming for the latter jobs you kind of have to give up most regional preferences anyway because you're going to be chasing the jobs around the country. If you want to stay in Utah you are unlikely to be aiming for either of these things, since those kinds of jobs don't really exist there.

So, yes, if you want to move to some market you have no ties to at all, a lot of people here will tell you not to do that, but you can succeed by going to the local law school. But you have to have realistic goals for the job market for that location, and be pretty confident that you do want to stay there for the foreseeable future (people do move around after law school, but you're going to make it harder for yourself by going to a regional school without ties and then trying to leave that region).


Thanks for this insight. I get why everyone here says what they say. I just tend to look at things a little differently than most. I tend to work things backwards. While im not even on the law school horizon yet, I feel like its important to know how jobs *can* look at certain situations and why. IMO, it helps carve a more efficient path to your end goal, whatever that is.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Npret » Mon May 29, 2017 11:45 am

Soup2Nuts wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
Nebby wrote:I don't know why you're asking hypotheticals OP.



Not hypothetical. If for some reason I want to live in Utah (I have no ties there) I want to know the "best" route to take. Why waste money at a T6 (or wherever) if I would still "struggle" to find employment in an area like that. Instead I could go to a much lower ranked school, make connections from people who are in the same "region" and possibly even from Salt Lake City (for example) and come out the same, if not better because of less money spent, than I would going to Yale and trying to break into Utah market.

Yes, if you know you want to live in a particular region (and don't plan to move), the strongest regional school, especially for free, is a great option and people here would recommend that. People here can be pessimistic about the idea of using the regional school to create ties where you don't have any - i.e. if you pick up and move to Utah for the purpose of going to school there and working there after law school, despite never having lived in Utah or having any other connections to Utah, the concern is that you will be at a disadvantage compared to the "true" locals who never left or at least already have ties. To some extent this may be true, but (I went to a regional school) you definitely can make connections and meet people and so on by attending a regional school, if you make the effort to network and get good experience while in school.

People who are at T14s will often disapprove of going to a regional school when you don't already have ties there, in part because they're often aiming for biglaw. The biglaw market in regions like SLC/Denver is incredibly small, and those firms will tend to favor the top local students, or T14 students with ties, so non-local T14 grads often get shut out. The flipside to this is that you will need to be one of the top students at the local school to have a shot at biglaw anyway, so you're taking a different kind of risk at the local school. If you're fine with any kind of legal job, then go to the regional school. However, if your primary goal is biglaw over being in a specific region, a T14 school is probably better because it will get you a biglaw job *somewhere.*

The other reason to go to a national-reach school would be if you're aiming for a very specialized, competitive job that generally only hires out of the very top schools. Like, if you want to go into academia, or the highest levels of impact lit/international human rights/specialized policy work, that kind of thing - go to Yale. Of course, if you're aiming for the latter jobs you kind of have to give up most regional preferences anyway because you're going to be chasing the jobs around the country. If you want to stay in Utah you are unlikely to be aiming for either of these things, since those kinds of jobs don't really exist there.

So, yes, if you want to move to some market you have no ties to at all, a lot of people here will tell you not to do that, but you can succeed by going to the local law school. But you have to have realistic goals for the job market for that location, and be pretty confident that you do want to stay there for the foreseeable future (people do move around after law school, but you're going to make it harder for yourself by going to a regional school without ties and then trying to leave that region).


Thanks for this insight. I get why everyone here says what they say. I just tend to look at things a little differently than most. I tend to work things backwards. While im not even on the law school horizon yet, I feel like its important to know how jobs *can* look at certain situations and why. IMO, it helps carve a more efficient path to your end goal, whatever that is.

Most people here have,or at least think they have, a career goal in mind when choosing a school. I'm not sure what you are thinking about that? Also, you are asking hypothetical questions because you don't have any schools, locations or careers in mind. You can't get accurate information for your situation. Instead you're just getting very general advice.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 11:54 am

Npret wrote:Most people here have,or at least think they have, a career goal in mind when choosing a school. I'm not sure what you are thinking about that? Also, you are asking hypothetical questions because you don't have any schools, locations or careers in mind. You can't get accurate information for your situation. Instead you're just getting very general advice.


I have locations in mind. I want to build from that. Schools will be determined the closer i get to the LSAT.

the whole point of this is to see how everything works before i go making a rash decision. "I want to be an IT Litigator in Boise". My wants and what is a smart decision are two different things. Hence why Im askin what im asking. To get a feel for it all. General advice is a good starting point for me at this leg in my journey. Finding a balance is what I am after. I dont have to be the most prestigious douche in the room. As long as I work toward a better life than what I currently have.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Npret » Mon May 29, 2017 12:03 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:Most people here have,or at least think they have, a career goal in mind when choosing a school. I'm not sure what you are thinking about that? Also, you are asking hypothetical questions because you don't have any schools, locations or careers in mind. You can't get accurate information for your situation. Instead you're just getting very general advice.


I have locations in mind. I want to build from that. Schools will be determined the closer i get to the LSAT.

the whole point of this is to see how everything works before i go making a rash decision. "I want to be an IT Litigator in Boise". My wants and what is a smart decision are two different things. Hence why Im askin what im asking. To get a feel for it all. General advice is a good starting point for me at this leg in my journey. Finding a balance is what I am after. I dont have to be the most prestigious douche in the room. As long as I work toward a better life than what I currently have.

Ok fine but your attitude is already telling that you aren't interested in attending top schools anyway. If you just want to justify staying at home and you can live with the cost and employment outcomes, no one is going to tell you that you have to leave. That's your decision to make.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 12:13 pm

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Last edited by Soup2Nuts on Mon May 29, 2017 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 12:14 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
Npret wrote:Most people here have,or at least think they have, a career goal in mind when choosing a school. I'm not sure what you are thinking about that? Also, you are asking hypothetical questions because you don't have any schools, locations or careers in mind. You can't get accurate information for your situation. Instead you're just getting very general advice.


I have locations in mind. I want to build from that. Schools will be determined the closer i get to the LSAT.

the whole point of this is to see how everything works before i go making a rash decision. "I want to be an IT Litigator in Boise". My wants and what is a smart decision are two different things. Hence why Im askin what im asking. To get a feel for it all. General advice is a good starting point for me at this leg in my journey. Finding a balance is what I am after. I dont have to be the most prestigious douche in the room. As long as I work toward a better life than what I currently have.

Ok fine but your attitude is already telling that you aren't interested in attending top schools anyway. If you just want to justify staying at home and you can live with the cost and employment outcomes, no one is going to tell you that you have to leave. That's your decision to make.


And who said im not interested in top schools? However, for what I am wanting it wouldnt make any sense for me to go to a top school for the sake of going to a top school if my outcome, meaning where I want to live and what I want to practice, is hardly any different than attending the strongest local school (per what Mouse said)

Would I want and am I shooting for top schools? Yes, of course. Saying "Im thinking about going to a top school and do biglaw" is an easy decision to make. Having to come up with a backup on the spot (when you realize you wont be able to get into top schools and/or do biglaw) is a lot harder and often times less efficient than taking the time now to think about that outcome. Things dont always go according to plan and I find it funny that people base their whole life on "what they think they have in mind". Thats all fine and dandy to think and have goals toward what you want to do, but real life rarely plays out like you "think" or "want" it to.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 29, 2017 12:15 pm

What do you actually want to do?

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 12:35 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:What do you actually want to do?


Nothing set in stone, Im still learning about all the different things out there. However, I would like to go where the "action" is. For example, the CIA SAD unit sees a lot of action when they are deployed. Tailing people, gathering intel etc. IDK what qualifies as "action" in the lawyer world nor what practices get you there.

With that being said, I would also like to open up my own firm shortly after getting my feet wet after law school (3-5 in the real world). Biglaw is an option and then downgrading to "medLaw" to achieve the work/life balance I would be ultimately looking for. I would forgo my own firm only if I found a perfect fit at an established law firm. But with how I am, i tend to like to do what I want to do when I want to do it. I know what needs to be done and dont need someone making sure it gets done.

Possibly some form of litigation. Possibly family law? I do like hearing about peoples problems that not everyone knows about. Not knowing how it "really works" inside a lot of the practice areas, I dont have anything set in stone because I am trying to find something I could find interesting and has a stable career path.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 29, 2017 12:48 pm

I'm asking this genuinely: how can you want to be where the "action" is when you don't know yet what the "action" is in the legal profession? What do you mean by "action"?

If you want to open your own firm I don't know that biglaw is a great starting point - there aren't a lot of biglaw practices that transfer to solo gigs (there was one poster here who managed this, but I think he was the exception that proves the rule). Like if you want to do criminal defense, look into being an ADA/PD; if you want to do family law, work in a family law firm (that's not usually big law but small firms - it tends to be very local, unless I suppose the family is the Kardashians or something).

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lymenheimer
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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby lymenheimer » Mon May 29, 2017 12:54 pm

Lol at your "problems that no one knows about" goals. Go be a psych.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 12:59 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm asking this genuinely: how can you want to be where the "action" is when you don't know yet what the "action" is in the legal profession? What do you mean by "action"?


I can want to be where the action is because I dont like to be bored. I can want to be where the action is and change my mind once I find out what it actually entails. Hence all the questions I have ever asked on this forum so far. I thought that was the whole point of this? Asking questions, learning the difference between what I think and how it actually is etc. Sounds like its being held against me because I dont just "know" these things. In any case, I like to be involved in a lot of moving parts. Mon: luncheon with a potential client. Tues: looking over an acquisition of some sort and giving advice on it. Wed: Im in court all day. You get the idea. And no I dont think that is how it is in the real world. Just an example.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby blueapple » Mon May 29, 2017 1:02 pm

OP, why do you want to be a lawyer? It sounds like you want both work/life balance AND a very exciting action-packed workload -- that's not going to be easy to come by as a lawyer (I'm not really sure if it's possible, honestly).

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 1:03 pm

lymenheimer wrote:Lol at your "problems that no one knows about" goals. Go be a psych.


Knowing about peoples problems and offering non-legal life advice about those problems are 2 different things. Maybe you should go read what a psych actually does before trying to reconcile what I find interesting and basically saying "youre in the wrong profession". Get a clue.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 1:07 pm

blueapple wrote:OP, why do you want to be a lawyer? It sounds like you want both work/life balance AND a very exciting action-packed workload -- that's not going to be easy to come by as a lawyer (I'm not really sure if it's possible, honestly).


Sure thats what I want. I dont have a problem tweaking my wants to what is actually possible though. I guess i dont get why people think im talking in absolutes when I post something.

If im having fun/interested in my exciting action packed workload then Im willing to sacrifice not having as much time off and vice versa.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby stego » Mon May 29, 2017 1:11 pm

lymenheimer wrote:Lol at your "problems that no one knows about" goals. Go be a psych.

He said "problems that not everyone knows about." If you're going to make fun of people at least quote them correctly.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby IExistedOnceBefore » Mon May 29, 2017 1:13 pm

Where do you want to be a lawyer?

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 1:18 pm

IExistedOnceBefore wrote:Where do you want to be a lawyer?


Perfect world? Any decent sized city in CO. I went there on vacation a few times as a kid and love it. LIke the cold. Like dark gloomy days. So Seattle would be nice too. I have no ties to these regions or specific places.

I could work in Texas or FL and be just as happy. I have ties in FL and in TX. Other than that, nothing really stands out. Cali, NYC and the like. Not long term. I dont want to pay the taxes.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 29, 2017 1:22 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm asking this genuinely: how can you want to be where the "action" is when you don't know yet what the "action" is in the legal profession? What do you mean by "action"?


I can want to be where the action is because I dont like to be bored. I can want to be where the action is and change my mind once I find out what it actually entails. Hence all the questions I have ever asked on this forum so far. I thought that was the whole point of this? Asking questions, learning the difference between what I think and how it actually is etc. Sounds like its being held against me because I dont just "know" these things. In any case, I like to be involved in a lot of moving parts. Mon: luncheon with a potential client. Tues: looking over an acquisition of some sort and giving advice on it. Wed: Im in court all day. You get the idea. And no I dont think that is how it is in the real world. Just an example.

Okay, so basically you like to be busy and involved in a lot of stuff? Because "boring" is subjective and I'm not sure anyone can tell you what would make you not bored - things that bore me fascinate others and vice versa. (If it seems like I'm holding anything against you, it feels a little like you're looking for some kind of objective ideal and when asked what exactly you're looking for you say "but I don't know yet.")

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby IExistedOnceBefore » Mon May 29, 2017 1:22 pm

Soup2Nuts wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:Where do you want to be a lawyer?


Perfect world? Any decent sized city in CO. I went there on vacation a few times as a kid and love it. LIke the cold. Like dark gloomy days. So Seattle would be nice too. I have no ties to these regions or specific places.

I could work in Texas or FL and be just as happy. I have ties in FL and in TX. Other than that, nothing really stands out. Cali, NYC and the like. Not long term. I dont want to pay the taxes.

So for CO and FL you could go to the regional schools for free and have decent outcomes. I'm not familiar with CO but there are several in FL that are strong.

A T13 will get you into FL and TX as long as you have ties. Those would be schools to consider if you want to have geographic mobility down the road.

For TX it's UT no brainer.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 1:29 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm asking this genuinely: how can you want to be where the "action" is when you don't know yet what the "action" is in the legal profession? What do you mean by "action"?


I can want to be where the action is because I dont like to be bored. I can want to be where the action is and change my mind once I find out what it actually entails. Hence all the questions I have ever asked on this forum so far. I thought that was the whole point of this? Asking questions, learning the difference between what I think and how it actually is etc. Sounds like its being held against me because I dont just "know" these things. In any case, I like to be involved in a lot of moving parts. Mon: luncheon with a potential client. Tues: looking over an acquisition of some sort and giving advice on it. Wed: Im in court all day. You get the idea. And no I dont think that is how it is in the real world. Just an example.

Okay, so basically you like to be busy and involved in a lot of stuff? Because "boring" is subjective and I'm not sure anyone can tell you what would make you not bored - things that bore me fascinate others and vice versa. (If it seems like I'm holding anything against you, it feels a little like you're looking for some kind of objective ideal and when asked what exactly you're looking for you say "but I don't know yet.")


Well im not. Asking you where you think the "action" is based upon your experience and interests is one answer. Getting another answer from a different poster and so on would, at least, help me start researching those areas to see if what they expressed line up with my "non boring" criteria. On that search, i could find "the one" and it wasnt even mentioned in any of the posts (if you understand what im saying here). Im not looking for hard and fast answers. Im looking for starting points so i can draw my own hard and fast conclusions, if you catch my drift.

But yes, I like being involved in a lot of different things.
Last edited by Soup2Nuts on Mon May 29, 2017 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby Soup2Nuts » Mon May 29, 2017 1:34 pm

IExistedOnceBefore wrote:
Soup2Nuts wrote:
IExistedOnceBefore wrote:Where do you want to be a lawyer?


Perfect world? Any decent sized city in CO. I went there on vacation a few times as a kid and love it. LIke the cold. Like dark gloomy days. So Seattle would be nice too. I have no ties to these regions or specific places.

I could work in Texas or FL and be just as happy. I have ties in FL and in TX. Other than that, nothing really stands out. Cali, NYC and the like. Not long term. I dont want to pay the taxes.

So for CO and FL you could go to the regional schools for free and have decent outcomes. I'm not familiar with CO but there are several in FL that are strong.

A T13 will get you into FL and TX as long as you have ties. Those would be schools to consider if you want to have geographic mobility down the road.

For TX it's UT no brainer.


Ya UT duh. But that seems like a good plan of attack for my goals. I appreciate it.

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Re: T6 v. Trial Advocacy

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 29, 2017 1:49 pm

All I'm saying, S2N, is that asking me where the "action" is isn't going to get you a helpful answer because I have no idea what you mean by that. So if you're going to have to define it for me so I can answer you might as well just say more specifically what you're looking for.




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