Appealing a LSAC Misconduct notice Forum

[Npret]

Is it against the rules to ask OP to out the (allegedly) scummy school that reported him based on email miscommunication prior to him even submitting an application?

I dont think it's against the rules but it won't benefit OP. I guess the school feels that an email inquiring about late admission counts as part of the admission process. Maybe LSAC won't agree.

My complete guess is that OP wrote something to the effect of : "I was unable to apply before the deadline due [family issues.] I would like to attend this fall and am requesting the opportunity to apply late. My GPA is 3.79 and my LSAT is[xxx.] I have also attached my transcript."

[smilingorch]

The subcommittee that hears these things is made up of faculty and staff from law schools. interesting..

OP, I'll do you a solid. My father-in-law is tenured at a T13 and teaches Legal Writing (which is obviously not what you're looking for but at the very least he might know what a good draft email will look like). I'll tell him about your predicament AND tell him that you can't afford an attorney (even though you should definitely look into the free/cheap consultations, if possible), and see what he thinks. Who knows. He may be the one who hears your case. I'll also ask my sister who's a DA. I'll send you a PM of their response.

To the people who said get a lawyer or languish and to the people who just tagged on snarky comments with no solid advice -- good job calling me out for being a 0L trying to help, when you're a bunch of 0Ls who aren't trying to help. Seriously, only npret and maybe one other person gave solid advice.

[lymenheimer]

The subcommittee that hears these things is made up of faculty and staff from law schools. interesting..

OP, I'll do you a solid. My father-in-law is tenured at a T13 and teaches Legal Writing (which is obviously not what you're looking for but at the very least he might know what a good draft email will look like). I'll tell him about your predicament AND tell him that you can't afford an attorney (even though you should definitely look into the free/cheap consultations, if possible), and see what he thinks. Who knows. He may be the one who hears your case. I'll also ask my sister who's a DA. I'll send you a PM of their response.

To the people who said get a lawyer or languish and to the people who just tagged on snarky comments with no solid advice -- good job calling me out for being a 0L trying to help, when you're a bunch of 0Ls who aren't trying to help. Seriously, only npret and maybe one other person gave solid advice.

Ah yes. Trust an anonymous internet guy to give you legal advice that he got from "his father-in-law" who, "believe me, is a great lawyer." Look...it's not that there isn't a simple answer, it's that if he picks the wrong answer, then his legal career could be shot before it begins (depending on the weight the bar in his desired jx would put on something like this). That's why you get an attorney to address it. Not because it's a difficult question or hard to come up with a response. But rather, because someone who's dealt with this stuff before is significantly better to work it out than anyone else. And you fall under the "anyone else" category, btw.

[Npret]

The subcommittee that hears these things is made up of faculty and staff from law schools. interesting..

OP, I'll do you a solid. My father-in-law is tenured at a T13 and teaches Legal Writing (which is obviously not what you're looking for but at the very least he might know what a good draft email will look like). I'll tell him about your predicament AND tell him that you can't afford an attorney (even though you should definitely look into the free/cheap consultations, if possible), and see what he thinks. Who knows. He may be the one who hears your case. I'll also ask my sister who's a DA. I'll send you a PM of their response.

To the people who said get a lawyer or languish and to the people who just tagged on snarky comments with no solid advice -- good job calling me out for being a 0L trying to help, when you're a bunch of 0Ls who aren't trying to help. Seriously, only npret and maybe one other person gave solid advice.

Ah yes. Trust an anonymous internet guy to give you legal advice that he got from "his father-in-law" who, "believe me, is a great lawyer." Look...it's not that there isn't a simple answer, it's that if he picks the wrong answer, then his legal career could be shot before it begins (depending on the weight the bar in his desired jx would put on something like this). That's why you get an attorney to address it. Not because it's a difficult question or hard to come up with a response. But rather, because someone who's dealt with this stuff before is significantly better to work it out than anyone else. And you fall under the "anyone else" category, btw.

Couldn't agree more. None of us are experts here. There have to be issues we are missing (we don't have experience, we aren't looking closely and we certainly don't have all the facts) and an expert is going to be worth the advice.

FWIW I don't see any school wasting time and resources on this without a decent reason so we can't assume nothing is there.

[Redfactor]

The subcommittee that hears these things is made up of faculty and staff from law schools. interesting..

OP, I'll do you a solid. My father-in-law is tenured at a T13 and teaches Legal Writing (which is obviously not what you're looking for but at the very least he might know what a good draft email will look like). I'll tell him about your predicament AND tell him that you can't afford an attorney (even though you should definitely look into the free/cheap consultations, if possible), and see what he thinks. Who knows. He may be the one who hears your case. I'll also ask my sister who's a DA. I'll send you a PM of their response.

To the people who said get a lawyer or languish and to the people who just tagged on snarky comments with no solid advice -- good job calling me out for being a 0L trying to help, when you're a bunch of 0Ls who aren't trying to help. Seriously, only npret and maybe one other person gave solid advice.

Calling it now: Troll.

[smilingorch]

The subcommittee that hears these things is made up of faculty and staff from law schools. interesting..

OP, I'll do you a solid. My father-in-law is tenured at a T13 and teaches Legal Writing (which is obviously not what you're looking for but at the very least he might know what a good draft email will look like). I'll tell him about your predicament AND tell him that you can't afford an attorney (even though you should definitely look into the free/cheap consultations, if possible), and see what he thinks. Who knows. He may be the one who hears your case. I'll also ask my sister who's a DA. I'll send you a PM of their response.

To the people who said get a lawyer or languish and to the people who just tagged on snarky comments with no solid advice -- good job calling me out for being a 0L trying to help, when you're a bunch of 0Ls who aren't trying to help. Seriously, only npret and maybe one other person gave solid advice.

Ah yes. Trust an anonymous internet guy to give you legal advice that he got from "his father-in-law" who, "believe me, is a great lawyer." Look...it's not that there isn't a simple answer, it's that if he picks the wrong answer, then his legal career could be shot before it begins (depending on the weight the bar in his desired jx would put on something like this). That's why you get an attorney to address it. Not because it's a difficult question or hard to come up with a response. But rather, because someone who's dealt with this stuff before is significantly better to work it out than anyone else. And you fall under the "anyone else" category, btw.

Couldn't agree more. None of us are experts here. There have to be issues we are missing (we don't have experience, we aren't looking closely and we certainly don't have all the facts) and an expert is going to be worth the advice.

FWIW I don't see any school wasting time and resources on this without a decent reason so we can't assume nothing is there.

Even if my relatives weren't good lawyers (which he obviously must've been good enough to get a job at a T13, where they get their LSAC subcommittees that review these things btw), at least his quick opinion is better than yours. And better than mine. So, I'll ask. And you know what's great? OP can still get legal counsel from someone else and not take my relatives' opinions! Funny how that works, right?

If he says you're SOL, I'll tell you, and you can still get another opinion. Opinions are like buttholes. Everyone has one. In my completely non-legal opinion which is still a valid opinion (although people on this thread seem to think only lawyers can have opinions these days), "you done goofed!"

[lymenheimer]

Even if my relatives weren't good lawyers (which he obviously must've been good enough to get a job at a T13, where they get their LSAC subcommittees that review these things btw), at least his quick opinion is better than yours. And better than mine. So, I'll ask. And you know what's great? OP can still get legal counsel from someone else and not take my relatives' opinions! Funny how that works, right?

You should rethink going to law school if you're actually this dense. Nobody gives a shit about your relatives' credentials and it certainly was not the thrust of my argument, hth.

[smilingorch]

Even if my relatives weren't good lawyers (which he obviously must've been good enough to get a job at a T13, where they get their LSAC subcommittees that review these things btw), at least his quick opinion is better than yours. And better than mine. So, I'll ask. And you know what's great? OP can still get legal counsel from someone else and not take my relatives' opinions! Funny how that works, right?

You should rethink going to law school if you're actually this dense. Nobody gives a shit about your relatives' credentials and it certainly was not the thrust of my argument, hth.

So, which part exactly makes me dense? Agreeing with you that he can get legal advice from someone else or stating that at least my relatives' opinion is better than mine? You're sending mixed signals here... Before you go on a steaming rampage to trample on the efforts of literally anyone that tries to help, try taking a step back and breathing.

OP came on this thread to ask for advice. I said I could get advice from the most qualified person I know (regardless of whether you think he's qualified enough), and that he can also feel free to solicit advice from someone who deals with this more regularly if he can find a way. And you have a problem with it? Geez, by your reaction, you would think I was the one who reported him to LSAC.

[lymenheimer]

which part exactly makes me dense?

Nobody gives a shit about your relatives' credentials and it certainly was not the thrust of my argument, hth.

(regardless of whether you think he's qualified enough)

The part where you originally thought (and apparently still think) credentials matter at all even though I just said "it certainly was not the thrust of my argument."

OP came on this thread to ask for advice.

And the advice he got was "contact an attorney because this could be a big problem."

The initial advice he got from you was "don't worry about it. Just phrase it this way and you'll be fine." because you've "done multimillion dollar deals with lawyers." If you're concerned that OP can't afford an attorney for $50 to review his issue, then why aren't you concerned with the fact that OP could spend 3 years and hundreds of thousands in nondischargeable dollars to be denied admission to the bar (if this ends up being that big of a deal)?

[smilingorch]

Lymenheimer, this is what I said:

"C'mon guys - this guy only has a few days left to respond and can't afford an attorney. The best you all can come up with is get the money somehow (from God knows where)? ... Trust me, it seems huge now (and it is), but it doesn't require an attorney to draft your response."

I still stand by the statement - this doesn't require an attorney to draft the response. It would be wise (and BETTER) if he got one to help, but I responded to OP saying that was NOT AN OPTION. Obviously, if that's an option, that changes things.

And credentials do matter. Maybe not where he teaches, but the fact that he's a law professor means he is qualified to give advice. it might not be perfect advice, but it'd sure be a hell of a lot better than nothing, which is what OP has now (from a legal standpoint, not from internet warriors).

Aren't you in law school in a T13? If you were in this situation (which would obviously never happen to you), and you had absolutely no other option (let's say you can't even scrape together 10 bucks and there were no other resources), would you not be willing to take your professor's quick advice as a last resort?

Oh and to your last point, I by no means said OP would be fine if he/she phrased it the way I suggested. I just said that's better than what he/she planned on writing. I personally think he/she is SOL either way it goes.

[albanach]

The subcommittee that hears these things is made up of faculty and staff from law schools. interesting..

OP, I'll do you a solid. My father-in-law is tenured at a T13 and teaches Legal Writing (which is obviously not what you're looking for but at the very least he might know what a good draft email will look like). I'll tell him about your predicament AND tell him that you can't afford an attorney (even though you should definitely look into the free/cheap consultations, if possible), and see what he thinks. Who knows. He may be the one who hears your case. I'll also ask my sister who's a DA. I'll send you a PM of their response.

To the people who said get a lawyer or languish and to the people who just tagged on snarky comments with no solid advice -- good job calling me out for being a 0L trying to help, when you're a bunch of 0Ls who aren't trying to help. Seriously, only npret and maybe one other person gave solid advice.

Ah yes. Trust an anonymous internet guy to give you legal advice that he got from "his father-in-law" who, "believe me, is a great lawyer." Look...it's not that there isn't a simple answer, it's that if he picks the wrong answer, then his legal career could be shot before it begins (depending on the weight the bar in his desired jx would put on something like this). That's why you get an attorney to address it. Not because it's a difficult question or hard to come up with a response. But rather, because someone who's dealt with this stuff before is significantly better to work it out than anyone else. And you fall under the "anyone else" category, btw.

I think you identify an issue in that comparatively few attorneys will have experience handling C&F matters. So for good advice you need to track down a lawyer specializing in that.

I agree that OP would be better served by consulting a lawyer rather than the internet. They would be best served if they can find a lawyer with experience in the field.

As for the other poster offering to ask their relatives, I imagine those lawyers will be concerned about both unauthorized practice of law (do we even know what jurisdiction OP is in) and establishing an attorney client relationship. A faculty member who is not actively practicing might not carry any malpractice insurance. A DA is likely insured by the state and may not have coverage for ad hoc advice.

[lymenheimer]

And credentials do matter.

they don't matter to my original point, which is outside of whatever else you are dragging me into.

[mvp99]

Wait wtf is this.. my law school app had my resume with rounded up transcript GPA (its obviously rounded since it has one decimal digit and I remember reading that this was fine at the time i think even from the admissions dean) and no lsac gpa... Time to lawyer up?

[smilingorch]

Wait wtf is this.. my law school app had my resume with rounded up transcript GPA (its obviously rounded since it has one decimal digit and I remember reading that this was fine at the time i think even from the admissions dean) and no lsac gpa... Time to lawyer up?

OP sent an email saying his GPA was 3.79 vs 3.66 which is pretty far off. Apparently, the school thought it was bad enough to report to LSAC. I think a normal admin would've just emailed back saying, "Your transcript says 3.66; what do you mean by 3.79?" And maybe thought it was a typo or at least given the guy a chance to explain where he got that number. That school went 0 to 100. Too bad his LSAC GPA doesn't match or know credits from other schools that factored in that could've made it higher.

[smilingorch]

You won't not be admitted to the bar just because of this if it's been discussed BEFORE applying to law school and the law school admits you while knowing about this. Where are you all even getting that information from because it's wrong. Even if it goes on his applications, which we all hope it won't, if a school chooses to admit him and he fully discloses the situation, he will not suddenly not be allowed to take the bar when the time comes 4 years down the road. Oh and btw, I just checked with an actual attorney, so any 0L or current law students opinions on this are kind of laughable. But to the actual attorneys in the thread, I'd love to hear your input.

Read this (P.S. it's from someone who's qualified to speak on the subject, for all you butthurt 1Ls and other 0Ls: http://www.americanbar.org/publications ... quire.html

[guynourmin]

You won't not be admitted to the bar just because of this if it's been discussed BEFORE applying to law school and the law school admits you while knowing about this. ... if a school chooses to admit him and he fully discloses the situation, he will not suddenly not be allowed to take the bar when the time comes 4 years down the road. ..
Read this (P.S. it's from someone who's qualified to speak on the subject, for all you butthurt 1Ls and other 0Ls: http://www.americanbar.org/publications ... quire.html

I'm a 0L, so feel free to ignore me, but nothing in that article OR COMMON SENSE says that the bar association will defer to a law school admissions committee when assessing C&F. If the bar has a problem with something in your past, even if the school thought it was okay, why wouldn't the bar look further in to that issue?

[smilingorch]

You won't not be admitted to the bar just because of this if it's been discussed BEFORE applying to law school and the law school admits you while knowing about this. ... if a school chooses to admit him and he fully discloses the situation, he will not suddenly not be allowed to take the bar when the time comes 4 years down the road. ..
Read this (P.S. it's from someone who's qualified to speak on the subject, for all you butthurt 1Ls and other 0Ls: http://www.americanbar.org/publications ... quire.html

I'm a 0L, so feel free to ignore me, but nothing in that article OR COMMON SENSE says that the bar association will defer to a law school admissions committee when assessing C&F. If the bar has a problem with something in your past, even if the school thought it was okay, why wouldn't the bar look further in to that issue?

I'm just going to quote the article, so others don't have to read:

"Lack of candor. Many grads are caught by surprise when they are called out by the bar for lack of candor. Bar officials will double-check everything their investigators find against your law school and bar applications, and if something significant is missing from either, you’ll find yourself in a world of trouble.

Do you have any doubts about the accuracy of your law school application? If you suspect that you omitted any required information, ask for a copy, and if you did omit something, notify your law school as soon as possible. If there are consequences—and there may or may not be—it’s better to face them now."

LSAC will tell the schools in advance. He won't be hiding anything. Now, they may dig and find other shit. I'm just giving OP benefit of the doubt and hoping he/she hasn't done anything else egregious.

[smilingorch]

OP, I asked for you like I promised. The response I got was, "Desperate people smh." Sorry, they weren't really willing to help, but at least I tried.

I'd love to see how things shake out in the end. Please post back afterward for future people perusing the web for fodder.
This is the most I've ever commented on TLS, and I spent most of it feeding the trolls well, this taste of drama was fun to keep me distracted from work, but I have a real job so I won't be checking back on this thread.

In the words of Glozell, "Peace and blessings!"

[guynourmin]

of course you can't get in trouble for lack of candor if you didn't lack candor, but you can still get in trouble for the content of the action you disclosed. What you said made it sound like if the school is okay with it then the bar will be okay with it because the school was okay with it and that is not the case. In most instances it should be (I'm sure that is the schools intention) but that doesn't mean it will be in every circumstance.

whatever, reading is hard for some people, I get it.

OP, good luck.

[albanach]

LSAC will tell the schools in advance. He won't be hiding anything. Now, they may dig and find other shit. I'm just giving OP benefit of the doubt and hoping he/she hasn't done anything else egregious.

The point you're missing is that lack of candor is what the school appears to have alleged to LSAC. If LSAC make that determination, it can't simply be remedied by full disclosure after the fact.

[Npret]

Wait wtf is this.. my law school app had my resume with rounded up transcript GPA (its obviously rounded since it has one decimal digit and I remember reading that this was fine at the time i think even from the admissions dean) and no lsac gpa... Time to lawyer up?

Areyou the subject of an active complaint and investigation like OP? If so, then yes.

[patches1995]

C'mon guys - this guy only has a few days left to respond and can't afford an attorney. The best you all can come up with is get the money somehow (from God knows where)? Attorneys don't even work on that time schedule either.

This is coming from someone who negotiated multi-million dollar deals for a major international corporation. The advice you're getting from these guys is ridiculous. Trust me, it seems huge now (and it is), but it doesn't require an attorney to draft your response.

This is horrible advice. You may have "negotiated multi-million dollar deals for a major international corporation," but you lack common sense when it comes to the risks involved when an aspiring lawyer faces a formal allegation of misrepresenting an academic record. You also don't seem to understand how attorneys offer services. What does "attorneys don't even work on that time schedule" mean? You don't know what you're talking about.

OP: it's certainly possible that things will work out just fine for you if you draft the letter yourself. Given the facts you've described, I think there's a good chance that even a poorly-written letter will result in LSAC finding that you did not commit misconduct. But the risks here are substantial. If LSAC doesn't see things your way, it could create significant problems when you apply to other law schools. And further down the road, it could create problems for your C&F application. That's why it's worth paying a C&F attorney to review your letter.

Good luck.

Time schedule as in: OP said he had 20 days, and also said he received the email weeks ago. You do the math here. Clearly he needs to respond in the next few days if not today.

Sorry, don't try me. I've worked directly with lawyers *clearly* far longer and more intimately than you. Not everything needs to be reviewed by a lawyer.

You're giving legal advice here and you haven't started law school?
----
OP are you sure you've told us everything? What was in your communication with the law school when they replied that they thought you were trying to deceive them?

Just to clarify: Is the law school's view that you requested to apply late based on a close to 3.8 GPA when your actual GPA is significantly lower?

Has your GPA been calculated by LSAC? What GPA do they give you- is it the 3.66 or lower?

Why did you decide to convert it for them (ie do they say anywhere that they ask applicants to convert the GPA?) and did your email explain that your transcript shows 3.66 but you calculated 3.78?

Or did you just say my GPA is 3.78 and send a transcript showing that it clearly is not 3.78? Did you at all explain the discrepancy?

It sounds to me that you flat out stated the calculated GPA instead of the transcript GPA. I can see why the school think this is deceptive and I think you may a have difficult time proving it wasn't deceptive.

Let me know if I'm wrong. I'm confused as to what else you said to the school. My thought is if your email clearly said "my GPA is 3.66 but my calculation shows a GPA of 3.78" you wouldn't be having this issue.

LSAC are difficult people to work with. I think you need professional, expert advice. In New York you can get consultations through the bar association for not much. Not sure about where you live but I would investigate the possibility further before you just give up on getting expert advice.

Does your school have anyone who can help you or might you get in trouble with them as well?

Like I said, without knowing more, from what you little you explained, I understand why the law school thinks you misrepresented your grades trying to get a chance to apply late. It was smart that you attached your transcript and that is in your favor, but it may not be enough.

OP: if you need more time to respond, email asking for an extension.

Pretty much the issue is that the GPA on my email is not the same as the one on my transcript (even though the converted GPA is correct). I did mess up by not explicitly stating that the GPA in the email is in the form that the law school was looking at and not what is on my transcript.

[patches1995]

I'm still shocked that you seem to be confused as to what I'm talking about when it comes to how long it takes for attorneys to work.

I'm shocked that a 0L who works with attorneys in a very limited context thinks that they know the first fucking thing about any legal practice in this field.

You're right. I assumed they'd take more than a day to help OP, but they may not. Not that it matters since OP already said he/she can't afford one. Unless it's free or super cheap, not sure why we're even debating how quickly they work.

I also think it's a bit funny that you are an attorney, but are just giving clipped, snarky responses and seem to be unnaturally offended by someone who's not even talking to you.

You can get inexpensive consultations. OP hasn't even tried.

Personally, I think OP will continue to blunder on alone and will end up getting an attorney at some point. This allegation is serious and I think the school has a basis for reporting OP as deceptive. But I think 80% OP doesn't take advice and just wings it.

I hope I'm wrong and everything works out for OP.
Good luck dealing with LSAC, they arent friendly, easygoing people. I know I wouldn't take them on alone. Still I do wish OP well. Screwing up before you've even applied is tough to handle.

I have tried to contact lawyers, but most are super expensive (can't even afford a fraction of what they are expecting). The relatively cheaper ones require more time than I have. I have tried other options like free legal aid (too busy to take on this case) and student legal clinics (closed for exam season).

[patches1995]

The subcommittee that hears these things is made up of faculty and staff from law schools. interesting..

OP, I'll do you a solid. My father-in-law is tenured at a T13 and teaches Legal Writing (which is obviously not what you're looking for but at the very least he might know what a good draft email will look like). I'll tell him about your predicament AND tell him that you can't afford an attorney (even though you should definitely look into the free/cheap consultations, if possible), and see what he thinks. Who knows. He may be the one who hears your case. I'll also ask my sister who's a DA. I'll send you a PM of their response.

To the people who said get a lawyer or languish and to the people who just tagged on snarky comments with no solid advice -- good job calling me out for being a 0L trying to help, when you're a bunch of 0Ls who aren't trying to help. Seriously, only npret and maybe one other person gave solid advice.

Thank you very much... Also, not sure how significant it is but the individual I contacted at the law school is on the LSAC misconduct committee ...

[patches1995]

OP, I asked for you like I promised. The response I got was, "Desperate people smh." Sorry, they weren't really willing to help, but at least I tried.

I'd love to see how things shake out in the end. Please post back afterward for future people perusing the web for fodder.
This is the most I've ever commented on TLS, and I spent most of it feeding the trolls well, this taste of drama was fun to keep me distracted from work, but I have a real job so I won't be checking back on this thread.

In the words of Glozell, "Peace and blessings!"

Thanks for trying, Ill definitely keep everyone updated