to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

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xspider

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby xspider » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:00 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
xspider wrote:This site is so weird, I assume we all want to be lawyers. But the majority appear to always try to downplay and belittle attorneys in most cases. I wouldn't call myself a doctor once I graduate school, unless maybe in a joke. But claiming people do "nothing of value" in law school and calling us garbage compared to other schools of education is ridiculous.

If people seem to be that ashamed of becoming an attorney, why not do something you would be proud of?


Getting a PhD requires you to do actual research and write a thesis that nobody else has ever written. You have to break new ground that literally no other human being has done. It can be small, but this process takes people on average 6 years to do. That's average. 6 straight years of research to create something entirely new. From what I've heard, the thesis defense is many orders of magnitude more humiliating and stressful than anything you will ever do in law school.

Law school is 1 year of a bloodbath, 1 year of just busy work, and 1 year of boredom.

The two are not comparable. Nobody is downplaying law school, but having a JD and wanting to be called "doctor" is like a chess player wanting to be called "athlete."

If that is what they are trying to say, then I retract my statement. However, a JD does have the word "doctorate" in it. Not to be a stickler about technicalities. Like I said, I would not tell anyone to call me doctor xxxx other than as a joke as in, "I am a doctor of law" something corny like that. But I do not think earning a JD is superior or inferior to others that attend higher education.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby PeanutsNJam » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:02 pm

xspider wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:
xspider wrote:This site is so weird, I assume we all want to be lawyers. But the majority appear to always try to downplay and belittle attorneys in most cases. I wouldn't call myself a doctor once I graduate school, unless maybe in a joke. But claiming people do "nothing of value" in law school and calling us garbage compared to other schools of education is ridiculous.

If people seem to be that ashamed of becoming an attorney, why not do something you would be proud of?


Getting a PhD requires you to do actual research and write a thesis that nobody else has ever written. You have to break new ground that literally no other human being has done. It can be small, but this process takes people on average 6 years to do. That's average. 6 straight years of research to create something entirely new. From what I've heard, the thesis defense is many orders of magnitude more humiliating and stressful than anything you will ever do in law school.

Law school is 1 year of a bloodbath, 1 year of just busy work, and 1 year of boredom.

The two are not comparable. Nobody is downplaying law school, but having a JD and wanting to be called "doctor" is like a chess player wanting to be called "athlete."

If that is what they are trying to say, then I retract my statement. However, a JD does have the word "doctorate" in it. Not to be a stickler about technicalities. Like I said, I would not tell anyone to call me doctor xxxx other than as a joke as in, "I am a doctor of law" something corny like that. But I do not think earning a JD is superior or inferior to others that attend higher education.


It is very much inferior to many post-graduate degrees, for all the reasons presented in this thread. A JD is a "professional degree." It's closer to a Master's in Architecture than it is to a PhD in neuroscience.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby Nekrowizard » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:04 pm

Capitol_Idea wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:
kellyfrost wrote:
Nekrowizard wrote:I wouldn't even call a Ph.D a doctor. If a Ph.D I know insisted on it, I would relentlessly mock them both to their faces and behind their backs. It's either MD or nothing.


LOL! I feel the exact same.


There are many PhDs significantly more difficult to attain than an MD, depending on your thesis. You seriously wouldn't call an astronaut with a PhD in both applied mathematics and astrophysics a "doctor"?

Stephen Hawking can't prescribe me painkillers, and that little bitch wants to be called a doctor?


That's what I'm sayin'. But for real, if you got your awesome mathematics and astrophysics PhD, good for you. Maybe I can do "doctor" there, even if I find it distasteful. But for every one of those guys there're are probably like 50 dudes with a joint PhD in comp lit, economics, and shitfucking. I guess what I'm saying is that this is a more complex issue than I realized at first blush and will require a multi-factor case-by-case analysis.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby stego » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:05 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
xspider wrote:This site is so weird, I assume we all want to be lawyers. But the majority appear to always try to downplay and belittle attorneys in most cases. I wouldn't call myself a doctor once I graduate school, unless maybe in a joke. But claiming people do "nothing of value" in law school and calling us garbage compared to other schools of education is ridiculous.

If people seem to be that ashamed of becoming an attorney, why not do something you would be proud of?


Getting a PhD requires you to do actual research and write a thesis that nobody else has ever written. You have to break new ground that literally no other human being has done. It can be small, but this process takes people on average 6 years to do. That's average. 6 straight years of research to create something entirely new. From what I've heard, the thesis defense is many orders of magnitude more humiliating and stressful than anything you will ever do in law school.

Law school is 1 year of a bloodbath, 1 year of just busy work, and 1 year of boredom.

The two are not comparable. Nobody is downplaying law school, but having a JD and wanting to be called "doctor" is like a chess player wanting to be called "athlete."

You're probably not working on your dissertation for all 6 years of your PhD program. You have other coursework. You are ABD (all but dissertation) when that is completed. You'd then spend at least 1-2 years working on the dissertation.
I haven't been through it but I would not say a dissertation defense is that stressful. If you're not ready, your advisor and your PhD committee won't let you defend. It's almost unheard of for someone to fail their defense.

JDs shouldn't call themselves doctors because nobody does that and therefore it is misleading as hell. It's also very douchey and pretentious.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby rpupkin » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:06 pm

Nekrowizard wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nekrowizard wrote:I wouldn't even call a Ph.D a doctor. If a Ph.D I know insisted on it, I would relentlessly mock them both to their faces and behind their backs. It's either MD or nothing.

You will if you go into lit and have to work with expert witnesses.

FYI, you'll generally address experts as doctor not because the experts demand it (though some do), but because you'll want your expert to appear credentialed and authoritative in front of the jury.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby xspider » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:07 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote:
xspider wrote:
PeanutsNJam wrote:
xspider wrote:This site is so weird, I assume we all want to be lawyers. But the majority appear to always try to downplay and belittle attorneys in most cases. I wouldn't call myself a doctor once I graduate school, unless maybe in a joke. But claiming people do "nothing of value" in law school and calling us garbage compared to other schools of education is ridiculous.

If people seem to be that ashamed of becoming an attorney, why not do something you would be proud of?


Getting a PhD requires you to do actual research and write a thesis that nobody else has ever written. You have to break new ground that literally no other human being has done. It can be small, but this process takes people on average 6 years to do. That's average. 6 straight years of research to create something entirely new. From what I've heard, the thesis defense is many orders of magnitude more humiliating and stressful than anything you will ever do in law school.

Law school is 1 year of a bloodbath, 1 year of just busy work, and 1 year of boredom.

The two are not comparable. Nobody is downplaying law school, but having a JD and wanting to be called "doctor" is like a chess player wanting to be called "athlete."

If that is what they are trying to say, then I retract my statement. However, a JD does have the word "doctorate" in it. Not to be a stickler about technicalities. Like I said, I would not tell anyone to call me doctor xxxx other than as a joke as in, "I am a doctor of law" something corny like that. But I do not think earning a JD is superior or inferior to others that attend higher education.


It is very much inferior to many post-graduate degrees, for all the reasons presented in this thread. A JD is a "professional degree." It's closer to a Master's in Architecture than it is to a PhD in neuroscience.

If you feel that way then I respect your opinion.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby TLSModBot » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:08 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Nekrowizard wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nekrowizard wrote:I wouldn't even call a Ph.D a doctor. If a Ph.D I know insisted on it, I would relentlessly mock them both to their faces and behind their backs. It's either MD or nothing.

You will if you go into lit and have to work with expert witnesses.

FYI, you'll generally address experts as doctor not because the experts demand it (though some do), but because you'll want your expert to appear credentialed and authoritative in front of the jury.
Also the (extremely few, to be honest) expert witnesses I have known make some crazy bank.

So, like, y'all can keep your scorn or whatever but they're not really the idiots here.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby fliptrip » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:08 pm

PeanutsNJam wrote: Getting a PhD requires you to do actual research and write a thesis that nobody else has ever written.


Just wanna give PnJ and amen on this one. Your PhD dissertation has to be a substantial, meaningful, and original contribution to your field. That's a very high standard and the process of actually completing a PhD and dissertation is a mindfuck beyond all imagination. It couldn't be further from show up, pass the tests, and keep it moving that you need to do to get an MD, JD, MBA, MPA, Pharm.D. or whatever other alphabet soup of degrees you want to consider.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby fliptrip » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:11 pm

stego wrote:
I haven't been through it but I would not say a dissertation defense is that stressful.


The defense is not stressful...it's closer to a formality/celebration. It's the production of the dissertation that's stressful. You have to develop your topic, get it approved, do the research and the writing, and revise as many times as you are told to. Keep in mind, we are talking book-length kind of writing if you're in the humanities and a whole series of experiments, etc. that have to go right if you're in the sciences. All of this is controlled by your advisor who could be benevolent, could be evil, or could up and die and there's nothing you can do about it. It seems like a special kind of torture.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby KeYe88 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:16 pm

hi all, but then i hv a question: why a DBA is a called doctor?

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby KeYe88 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:17 pm

KeYe88 wrote:hi all, but then i hv a question: why a DBA is a called doctor?


its the same as jd as being regarded as professional doctorates, but why it is a doctor while jd is a master

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby TLSModBot » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:18 pm

KeYe88 wrote:hi all, but then i hv a question: why a DBA is a called doctor?
Because they also contribute to research and theory development like a Ph.D? An MBA is closer to a JD than a DBA.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby fliptrip » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:18 pm

KeYe88 wrote:hi all, but then i hv a question: why a DBA is a called doctor?


LOL. The exact same reason an MD, PsyD, Pharm.D, or any of their ilk are. It's a professional doctorate, but for a time it was a little muddled in business schools such that there are researchers who hold the DBA as their terminal degree (anyone from HBS).

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby fliptrip » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:19 pm

MBA = JD, even though a JD is a little more of an authentic professional degree.
DBA = SJD

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby DrRighteous » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:20 pm

stego wrote:You're probably not working on your dissertation for all 6 years of your PhD program. You have other coursework. You are ABD (all but dissertation) when that is completed. You'd then spend at least 1-2 years working on the dissertation.
I haven't been through it but I would not say a dissertation defense is that stressful. If you're not ready, your advisor and your PhD committee won't let you defend. It's almost unheard of for someone to fail their defense.


Most PhD students will conduct research all 5+ years, although it rarely is all on the dissertation. In many programs, you take 2-3 years to conduct your first primarily independent research project, which you need to separately propose and defend - that's your Master's. During those first 3 years, you will also be taking between 1-3 classes a semester, with your first year typically being 3/3 and your third year working down to 2/2 or even 1/1 depending on the program. Classes will also often require original papers or research, and you are expected to be engaged in a minimum of 3 research projects at all times in many programs (with one of those going to a degree and the others just to build your CV and research experience). Often, PhD students are told not to spend too much time on their classes because they need to focus on their research. A typical PhD student (at least, in a decent program) will work at least 40 hours a week.

Once the thesis is defended, it's on to the comprehensive exam. Comps vary dramatically by school, but it's fair to say that they are the most harrowing part of the process for most students, and the place where most who fail are likely to fail. You are correct that committees will typically not let you defend your thesis or dissertation if they think you will fail (although I have seen it), but the same cannot be said for comps. All three defenses (Master's, Comps, Dissertation) are incredibly stressful, regardless.

Then, once you are finished comps, you have to propose, conduct, and defend your dissertation research, maintaining an active research program outside of your requirements throughout. Many PhD students will also either be teaching, TAing or serving as a research assistance throughout their time working toward their degree.

Obviously, PhD programs vary in structure, with some not providing Master's along the way. Generally, however, there is a lot more to a PhD than just the dissertation if you go to a decent program.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby KeYe88 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:21 pm

fliptrip wrote:
KeYe88 wrote:hi all, but then i hv a question: why a DBA is a called doctor?


LOL. The exact same reason an MD, PsyD, Pharm.D, or any of their ilk are. It's a professional doctorate, but for a time it was a little muddled in business schools such that there are researchers who hold the DBA as their terminal degree (anyone from HBS).


ok so the point is: being called doctor is nth to do with a degree's name, but if a degree is a terminal degree in it field

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby fliptrip » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:24 pm

KeYe88 wrote:
fliptrip wrote:
KeYe88 wrote:hi all, but then i hv a question: why a DBA is a called doctor?


LOL. The exact same reason an MD, PsyD, Pharm.D, or any of their ilk are. It's a professional doctorate, but for a time it was a little muddled in business schools such that there are researchers who hold the DBA as their terminal degree (anyone from HBS).


ok so the point is: being called doctor is nth to do with a degree's name, but if a degree is a terminal degree in it field


I wouldn't go that far, but it could work in most cases. This has more to do with tradition than anything. You also have to keep in mind that lawyers far predate the J.D. so it's unlikely that the arrival of the credential would radically alter how the professionals are addressed.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby KeYe88 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:25 pm

fliptrip wrote:
KeYe88 wrote:hi all, but then i hv a question: why a DBA is a called doctor?


LOL. The exact same reason an MD, PsyD, Pharm.D, or any of their ilk are. It's a professional doctorate, but for a time it was a little muddled in business schools such that there are researchers who hold the DBA as their terminal degree (anyone from HBS).


it seems some DBA dont do research, they are senior executives who earn to the calling of doctor through a DBA program

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby fliptrip » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:27 pm

And, since we are having a symposium on the history of academic credentialing, for a great many schools, for a long time the first degree you got from law school was not a JD, but an LLB. You'll see folks who graduated Stanford and Harvard and Yale and others before the 1970s who have the LLB. This was because of the fact that when law schools first came about, some schools required a college degree first, and others didn't.

And, thank you for joining history of academic letters with fliptrip.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby KeYe88 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:28 pm

imo people feel acceptable to call DBA a dr. but refuse to call JD a doctor which is not quite fair

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby Nekrowizard » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:29 pm

rpupkin wrote:
Nekrowizard wrote:
rpupkin wrote:
Nekrowizard wrote:I wouldn't even call a Ph.D a doctor. If a Ph.D I know insisted on it, I would relentlessly mock them both to their faces and behind their backs. It's either MD or nothing.

You will if you go into lit and have to work with expert witnesses.

FYI, you'll generally address experts as doctor not because the experts demand it (though some do), but because you'll want your expert to appear credentialed and authoritative in front of the jury.

I gathered that. Maybe I can slip in some mocking for the opposing experts.
Last edited by Nekrowizard on Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby stego » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:30 pm

DrRighteous wrote:
stego wrote:...
...

I'm a graduate student in a philosophy department. It works a little differently for us since we don't do experiments obviously. Not a PhD student but our program does have PhD students.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby fliptrip » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:31 pm

KeYe88 wrote:imo people feel acceptable to call DBA a dr. but refuse to call JD a doctor which is not quite fair


What does fairness have to do with this? Lawyers have a very convenient way of indicating their status to others, "esq".

If you want to be called doctor, you should probably get a degree that comes with it a social conferral of the title "doctor", otherwise you're going to be tilting at windmills. I want to warn you that I enjoy these conversations, so I can keep going as long as you can.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby DrRighteous » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:31 pm

stego wrote:
DrRighteous wrote:
stego wrote:...
...

I'm a graduate student in a philosophy department. It works a little differently for us since we don't do experiments obviously. Not a PhD student but our program does have PhD students.

Fair! It is true that my ... largely applies for PhDs doing empirical research.

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Re: to be serious, can a jd call him/herself a doctor?

Postby KeYe88 » Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:37 pm

fliptrip wrote:
KeYe88 wrote:imo people feel acceptable to call DBA a dr. but refuse to call JD a doctor which is not quite fair


What does fairness have to do with this? Lawyers have a very convenient way of indicating their status to others, "esq".

If you want to be called doctor, you should probably get a degree that comes with it a social conferral of the title "doctor", otherwise you're going to be tilting at windmills. I want to warn you that I enjoy these conversations, so I can keep going as long as you can.


i think it is so nice of you to continue the conversation here... but then i want to ask: why jd wasnt called a juris master in the first place then, what is the point of setting
such a glorifying word “doctor” into the degree ..



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