The straight talk: how bad of an idea is an LL.M. for me? Forum

[legal_qq]

Hey guys. Question: I am American but went abroad for my legal education due to my dual citizenship. I came out with no loans so that's good. I'm a qualified attorney and I've been working at one of the Netherlands' top firms for 3 years, and I believe I was very highly ranked in my school (top 5% or similar the last time I checked). I also hold an undergraduate degree in Italian law, so I am well versed on many aspects of European Union law (not sure if this makes me an attractive employee for U.S. international firms).

I want to return to the U.S. and practice law sometime in the future, possibly within the next three years or so. To do that, I have to take a 1 year conversion LL.M. I wanted to know if it's worth the high price to try to go to a school like NYU or Columbia or if I should just do the cheapest LL.M. possible and try to find work laterally rather than based on my education (I know NYU and Columbia have meets and greets with companies) and if I'd be at least able to find some semblance of work afterwards. The idea of taking out exorbitant student loans really bothers me - if I go back to the U.S. in three or four years, who knows how expensive those places will be? 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Basically it all hinges upon one question: do I want to put myself into debt for a very highly ranked LL.M., given my work experience and education, as a "bet" on finding work in NYC (my hometown)? Or do I just go to any ole LL.M. program in the interest of sitting the NY bar and hope I can swing a job in NY with my resume (work in an international firm)?

Any opinions--even negative ones--would be appreciated. Be as brutal as you wanna be. Thanks!

[legal_qq]

One option I was wondering about is trying to find a firm, whether U.S. or European which would sponsor an LL.M. for me so I can obtain admission in the NY bar. I know there are a very few that will.

[mvp99]

Do you want to do Tax law? if not, then I guess you should go to the cheapest t-14. I've heard of Big 4 companies sponsoring LLMs.

[legal_qq]

You know, I'm not totally opposed to tax law. However, my specializations are IP and competition. But tax is very interesting to me, yes.

When you say Big 4 firms will sponsor me, that's a ray of hope for me. The problem is getting hired by one! I was offered a position a few years ago at one of them in Italy but turned it down to work in the Netherlands. Would it be out of the realm of possibility to contact them in NY and see if they might sponsor me for an LL.M.?

[sd1111]

Hey guys. Question: I am American but went abroad for my legal education due to my dual citizenship. I came out with no loans so that's good. I'm a qualified attorney and I've been working at one of the Netherlands' top firms for 3 years, and I believe I was very highly ranked in my school (top 5% or similar the last time I checked). I also hold an undergraduate degree in Italian law, so I am well versed on many aspects of European Union law (not sure if this makes me an attractive employee for U.S. international firms).

I want to return to the U.S. and practice law sometime in the future, possibly within the next three years or so. To do that, I have to take a 1 year conversion LL.M. I wanted to know if it's worth the high price to try to go to a school like NYU or Columbia or if I should just do the cheapest LL.M. possible and try to find work laterally rather than based on my education (I know NYU and Columbia have meets and greets with companies) and if I'd be at least able to find some semblance of work afterwards. The idea of taking out exorbitant student loans really bothers me - if I go back to the U.S. in three or four years, who knows how expensive those places will be? 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Basically it all hinges upon one question: do I want to put myself into debt for a very highly ranked LL.M., given my work experience and education, as a "bet" on finding work in NYC (my hometown)? Or do I just go to any ole LL.M. program in the interest of sitting the NY bar and hope I can swing a job in NY with my resume (work in an international firm)?

Any opinions--even negative ones--would be appreciated. Be as brutal as you wanna be. Thanks!

I wonder why you prefer to take the LL.M degree rather the JD.Based on your experiences, you can almost certainly graduated from JD within 2 year, which is just one year more than the LL.M. If you score LSAT high enough, the JD expense would be even less than LL.M. Will you consider to take the JD?

[legal_qq]

Sure--why not?

How good of an LSAT score would I need to make a significant dent in the cost of a J.D.? I would imagine that I'd probably not be able to work for those 2 years, so I would have to factor in being out of (legal) work as well. I mean, I'm not a snob. I could still work evenings doing anything, to be sure. I'm just curious about how much cheaper it would be if I did a J.D.? I thought it was the opposite.

[mvp99]

Hey guys. Question: I am American but went abroad for my legal education due to my dual citizenship. I came out with no loans so that's good. I'm a qualified attorney and I've been working at one of the Netherlands' top firms for 3 years, and I believe I was very highly ranked in my school (top 5% or similar the last time I checked). I also hold an undergraduate degree in Italian law, so I am well versed on many aspects of European Union law (not sure if this makes me an attractive employee for U.S. international firms).

I want to return to the U.S. and practice law sometime in the future, possibly within the next three years or so. To do that, I have to take a 1 year conversion LL.M. I wanted to know if it's worth the high price to try to go to a school like NYU or Columbia or if I should just do the cheapest LL.M. possible and try to find work laterally rather than based on my education (I know NYU and Columbia have meets and greets with companies) and if I'd be at least able to find some semblance of work afterwards. The idea of taking out exorbitant student loans really bothers me - if I go back to the U.S. in three or four years, who knows how expensive those places will be? 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Basically it all hinges upon one question: do I want to put myself into debt for a very highly ranked LL.M., given my work experience and education, as a "bet" on finding work in NYC (my hometown)? Or do I just go to any ole LL.M. program in the interest of sitting the NY bar and hope I can swing a job in NY with my resume (work in an international firm)?

Any opinions--even negative ones--would be appreciated. Be as brutal as you wanna be. Thanks!

I wonder why you prefer to take the LL.M degree rather the JD.Based on your experiences, you can almost certainly graduated from JD within 2 year, which is just one year more than the LL.M. If you score LSAT high enough, the JD expense would be even less than LL.M. Will you consider to take the JD?

Could you explain yourself? Sincere question.

[sd1111]

Hey guys. Question: I am American but went abroad for my legal education due to my dual citizenship. I came out with no loans so that's good. I'm a qualified attorney and I've been working at one of the Netherlands' top firms for 3 years, and I believe I was very highly ranked in my school (top 5% or similar the last time I checked). I also hold an undergraduate degree in Italian law, so I am well versed on many aspects of European Union law (not sure if this makes me an attractive employee for U.S. international firms).

I want to return to the U.S. and practice law sometime in the future, possibly within the next three years or so. To do that, I have to take a 1 year conversion LL.M. I wanted to know if it's worth the high price to try to go to a school like NYU or Columbia or if I should just do the cheapest LL.M. possible and try to find work laterally rather than based on my education (I know NYU and Columbia have meets and greets with companies) and if I'd be at least able to find some semblance of work afterwards. The idea of taking out exorbitant student loans really bothers me - if I go back to the U.S. in three or four years, who knows how expensive those places will be? 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Basically it all hinges upon one question: do I want to put myself into debt for a very highly ranked LL.M., given my work experience and education, as a "bet" on finding work in NYC (my hometown)? Or do I just go to any ole LL.M. program in the interest of sitting the NY bar and hope I can swing a job in NY with my resume (work in an international firm)?

Any opinions--even negative ones--would be appreciated. Be as brutal as you wanna be. Thanks!

I wonder why you prefer to take the LL.M degree rather the JD.Based on your experiences, you can almost certainly graduated from JD within 2 year, which is just one year more than the LL.M. If you score LSAT high enough, the JD expense would be even less than LL.M. Will you consider to take the JD?

Could you explain yourself? Sincere question.

The reason for my response is that he/she has graduated with bachelor of law degree in a foreign country, and I know several top law schools allow students like him/her graduated earlier than 3 year because several credits required to get the JD degree could be compensated by the former undergradute education. But it has to be confirmed by each law school.

[mvp99]

OK never heard of that but OP be sure it complies with bar requirements

[BKB]

Hey guys. Question: I am American but went abroad for my legal education due to my dual citizenship. I came out with no loans so that's good. I'm a qualified attorney and I've been working at one of the Netherlands' top firms for 3 years, and I believe I was very highly ranked in my school (top 5% or similar the last time I checked). I also hold an undergraduate degree in Italian law, so I am well versed on many aspects of European Union law (not sure if this makes me an attractive employee for U.S. international firms).

I want to return to the U.S. and practice law sometime in the future, possibly within the next three years or so. To do that, I have to take a 1 year conversion LL.M. I wanted to know if it's worth the high price to try to go to a school like NYU or Columbia or if I should just do the cheapest LL.M. possible and try to find work laterally rather than based on my education (I know NYU and Columbia have meets and greets with companies) and if I'd be at least able to find some semblance of work afterwards. The idea of taking out exorbitant student loans really bothers me - if I go back to the U.S. in three or four years, who knows how expensive those places will be? 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Basically it all hinges upon one question: do I want to put myself into debt for a very highly ranked LL.M., given my work experience and education, as a "bet" on finding work in NYC (my hometown)? Or do I just go to any ole LL.M. program in the interest of sitting the NY bar and hope I can swing a job in NY with my resume (work in an international firm)?

Any opinions--even negative ones--would be appreciated. Be as brutal as you wanna be. Thanks!

I wonder why you prefer to take the LL.M degree rather the JD.Based on your experiences, you can almost certainly graduated from JD within 2 year, which is just one year more than the LL.M. If you score LSAT high enough, the JD expense would be even less than LL.M. Will you consider to take the JD?

Could you explain yourself? Sincere question.

The reason for my response is that he/she has graduated with bachelor of law degree in a foreign country, and I know several top law schools allow students like him/her graduated earlier than 3 year because several credits required to get the JD degree could be compensated by the former undergradute education. But it has to be confirmed by each law school.

I know many people with foreign LLB doing JD, and to my knowledge all of them will spend 3 years. Some law schools have two year JD for international lawyers, but the only school with 2 year program worth attending is NU. But even if you can finish JD in two years, I do not think that's necessarily a good idea. Biglaw recruiting has structured timelines (OCI->SA->offer), which are really designed for the three year program.

Doing an LLM is fine, and some people did find jobs in NYC, but odds are against you. I think the best approach is to lateral to the European office of a US firm, and then try to relocate to US (firm may ask you to get an LLM). Several US law firms have very good EU competition law practice.

If you decide to get an LLM with the intention of biglaw, I would argue that only HYSC will give you a fair chance.

[legal_qq]

My firm actually has a U.S. office (right in NYC). I should ask them maybe if they'd sponsor me?

[sd1111]

Hey guys. Question: I am American but went abroad for my legal education due to my dual citizenship. I came out with no loans so that's good. I'm a qualified attorney and I've been working at one of the Netherlands' top firms for 3 years, and I believe I was very highly ranked in my school (top 5% or similar the last time I checked). I also hold an undergraduate degree in Italian law, so I am well versed on many aspects of European Union law (not sure if this makes me an attractive employee for U.S. international firms).

I want to return to the U.S. and practice law sometime in the future, possibly within the next three years or so. To do that, I have to take a 1 year conversion LL.M. I wanted to know if it's worth the high price to try to go to a school like NYU or Columbia or if I should just do the cheapest LL.M. possible and try to find work laterally rather than based on my education (I know NYU and Columbia have meets and greets with companies) and if I'd be at least able to find some semblance of work afterwards. The idea of taking out exorbitant student loans really bothers me - if I go back to the U.S. in three or four years, who knows how expensive those places will be? 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Basically it all hinges upon one question: do I want to put myself into debt for a very highly ranked LL.M., given my work experience and education, as a "bet" on finding work in NYC (my hometown)? Or do I just go to any ole LL.M. program in the interest of sitting the NY bar and hope I can swing a job in NY with my resume (work in an international firm)?

Any opinions--even negative ones--would be appreciated. Be as brutal as you wanna be. Thanks!

I wonder why you prefer to take the LL.M degree rather the JD.Based on your experiences, you can almost certainly graduated from JD within 2 year, which is just one year more than the LL.M. If you score LSAT high enough, the JD expense would be even less than LL.M. Will you consider to take the JD?

Could you explain yourself? Sincere question.

The reason for my response is that he/she has graduated with bachelor of law degree in a foreign country, and I know several top law schools allow students like him/her graduated earlier than 3 year because several credits required to get the JD degree could be compensated by the former undergradute education. But it has to be confirmed by each law school.

I know many people with foreign LLB doing JD, and to my knowledge all of them will spend 3 years. Some law schools have two year JD for international lawyers, but the only school with 2 year program worth attending is NU. But even if you can finish JD in two years, I do not think that's necessarily a good idea. Biglaw recruiting has structured timelines (OCI->SA->offer), which are really designed for the three year program.

Doing an LLM is fine, and some people did find jobs in NYC, but odds are against you. I think the best approach is to lateral to the European office of a US firm, and then try to relocate to US (firm may ask you to get an LLM). Several US law firms have very good EU competition law practice.

If you decide to get an LLM with the intention of biglaw, I would argue that only HYSC will give you a fair chance.

However, seems like NU is going to cancel the 2-year program.

[BKB]

Hey guys. Question: I am American but went abroad for my legal education due to my dual citizenship. I came out with no loans so that's good. I'm a qualified attorney and I've been working at one of the Netherlands' top firms for 3 years, and I believe I was very highly ranked in my school (top 5% or similar the last time I checked). I also hold an undergraduate degree in Italian law, so I am well versed on many aspects of European Union law (not sure if this makes me an attractive employee for U.S. international firms).

I want to return to the U.S. and practice law sometime in the future, possibly within the next three years or so. To do that, I have to take a 1 year conversion LL.M. I wanted to know if it's worth the high price to try to go to a school like NYU or Columbia or if I should just do the cheapest LL.M. possible and try to find work laterally rather than based on my education (I know NYU and Columbia have meets and greets with companies) and if I'd be at least able to find some semblance of work afterwards. The idea of taking out exorbitant student loans really bothers me - if I go back to the U.S. in three or four years, who knows how expensive those places will be? 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Basically it all hinges upon one question: do I want to put myself into debt for a very highly ranked LL.M., given my work experience and education, as a "bet" on finding work in NYC (my hometown)? Or do I just go to any ole LL.M. program in the interest of sitting the NY bar and hope I can swing a job in NY with my resume (work in an international firm)?

Any opinions--even negative ones--would be appreciated. Be as brutal as you wanna be. Thanks!

I wonder why you prefer to take the LL.M degree rather the JD.Based on your experiences, you can almost certainly graduated from JD within 2 year, which is just one year more than the LL.M. If you score LSAT high enough, the JD expense would be even less than LL.M. Will you consider to take the JD?

Could you explain yourself? Sincere question.

The reason for my response is that he/she has graduated with bachelor of law degree in a foreign country, and I know several top law schools allow students like him/her graduated earlier than 3 year because several credits required to get the JD degree could be compensated by the former undergradute education. But it has to be confirmed by each law school.

I know many people with foreign LLB doing JD, and to my knowledge all of them will spend 3 years. Some law schools have two year JD for international lawyers, but the only school with 2 year program worth attending is NU. But even if you can finish JD in two years, I do not think that's necessarily a good idea. Biglaw recruiting has structured timelines (OCI->SA->offer), which are really designed for the three year program.

Doing an LLM is fine, and some people did find jobs in NYC, but odds are against you. I think the best approach is to lateral to the European office of a US firm, and then try to relocate to US (firm may ask you to get an LLM). Several US law firms have very good EU competition law practice.

If you decide to get an LLM with the intention of biglaw, I would argue that only HYSC will give you a fair chance.

However, seems like NU is going to cancel the 2-year program.

They are canceling the 2-year program for US students. But the program for international lawyers is a different one.

[BKB]

My firm actually has a U.S. office (right in NYC). I should ask them maybe if they'd sponsor me?

I think that's a good idea, especially if you have some compelling reasons (family, SO, etc.).

[sd1111]

Hey guys. Question: I am American but went abroad for my legal education due to my dual citizenship. I came out with no loans so that's good. I'm a qualified attorney and I've been working at one of the Netherlands' top firms for 3 years, and I believe I was very highly ranked in my school (top 5% or similar the last time I checked). I also hold an undergraduate degree in Italian law, so I am well versed on many aspects of European Union law (not sure if this makes me an attractive employee for U.S. international firms).

I want to return to the U.S. and practice law sometime in the future, possibly within the next three years or so. To do that, I have to take a 1 year conversion LL.M. I wanted to know if it's worth the high price to try to go to a school like NYU or Columbia or if I should just do the cheapest LL.M. possible and try to find work laterally rather than based on my education (I know NYU and Columbia have meets and greets with companies) and if I'd be at least able to find some semblance of work afterwards. The idea of taking out exorbitant student loans really bothers me - if I go back to the U.S. in three or four years, who knows how expensive those places will be? 100k isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Basically it all hinges upon one question: do I want to put myself into debt for a very highly ranked LL.M., given my work experience and education, as a "bet" on finding work in NYC (my hometown)? Or do I just go to any ole LL.M. program in the interest of sitting the NY bar and hope I can swing a job in NY with my resume (work in an international firm)?

Any opinions--even negative ones--would be appreciated. Be as brutal as you wanna be. Thanks!

I wonder why you prefer to take the LL.M degree rather the JD.Based on your experiences, you can almost certainly graduated from JD within 2 year, which is just one year more than the LL.M. If you score LSAT high enough, the JD expense would be even less than LL.M. Will you consider to take the JD?

Could you explain yourself? Sincere question.

The reason for my response is that he/she has graduated with bachelor of law degree in a foreign country, and I know several top law schools allow students like him/her graduated earlier than 3 year because several credits required to get the JD degree could be compensated by the former undergradute education. But it has to be confirmed by each law school.

I know many people with foreign LLB doing JD, and to my knowledge all of them will spend 3 years. Some law schools have two year JD for international lawyers, but the only school with 2 year program worth attending is NU. But even if you can finish JD in two years, I do not think that's necessarily a good idea. Biglaw recruiting has structured timelines (OCI->SA->offer), which are really designed for the three year program.

Doing an LLM is fine, and some people did find jobs in NYC, but odds are against you. I think the best approach is to lateral to the European office of a US firm, and then try to relocate to US (firm may ask you to get an LLM). Several US law firms have very good EU competition law practice.

If you decide to get an LLM with the intention of biglaw, I would argue that only HYSC will give you a fair chance.

However, seems like NU is going to cancel the 2-year program.

They are canceling the 2-year program for US students. But the program for international lawyers is a different one.

Yeah, the advanced JD. Are you familiar with the 2-year for international lawyer JD program? Do you know whether this program would have a looser LSAT requirements? Thanks in advance.

[legal_qq]

My firm actually has a U.S. office (right in NYC). I should ask them maybe if they'd sponsor me?

I think that's a good idea, especially if you have some compelling reasons (family, SO, etc.).

SO is Dutch but my parents are getting older and as they approach their twilight years, I'd like to be back in NY.