Top Law Schools

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Going to b-school for the sake of going to b-school is flame. What do you want to do with your life? Banking? Finance? Random F500 job? Non-profit work?

pulstar wrote:If a 0L with a high GPA (like around a 3.8 or higher) and a 170+ score was convinced by TLS that B-school was a better option, how would he/she pursue admissions from top (whatever this means) business schools. If the 0L could achieve the same percentile score on the GMAT as he/she did on the LSAT (a 170+ would be a 98+ percentile), what kind of work experience should the 0L pursue (or already have)? Is it very difficult to find work at a place that elite business schools would consider "good"? How would other softs factor into the calculus? Are these questions too broad? Would appreciate whatever insight you could provide.

It's a better option if you don't want to be a lawyer and want to work in business

B-school admissions is nothing like law school admissions. For the most part, academic achievement takes a backseat to real world accomplishments. A college buddy of mine had subpar GPA and GMAT scores, yet she got into top programs like Wharton, Kellogg, and Tuck. Why? Her real world work experience included working with an NGO in India that helped hundreds of villagers gain access to clean drinking water, and she made that a focal point in her essays and interview.

As ambiguous as it sounds, your have to demonstrate to whatever program you're applying to that you have the potential to be impactful in the real world. If you worked at a bulge bracket investment bank or a global consulting firm, your chances are good. Rising through the ranks quickly at a Fortune 500 is also good. If not, I think starting your own company or business is the best way to go, but obviously also the riskiest.

Contrary to what was said above, a lot people who go to business school don't actually know what they want to do coming in, although banking and consulting is still the default path at most of the top programs. Nonetheless, the variety of jobs and the opportunities that are available are amazing once you get your foot in. Did I mention you'll never have to worry about grades at b-school? With a decent personality and acceptable interview skills, even the student at the bottom of Wharton can probably find a job somewhere in the high five-figures/low six-figures range. Having said that, attending a top program is crucial, even with substantive work experience.

There doesn't exist the b-school equivalent of T14, and the whole "M7" designation is simply a marketing ploy devised by a disgruntled business school dean, but it is undisputed that Stanford and Harvard occupies the top rung, with Wharton slightly below. What I would do is to look up the employment statistics at the programs you're considering and see if your desired employers are recruiting from that particular program.

MBA programs strongly prefer 3 to 5 years of post undergraduate work experience. Although work experience is easily among the top 2 or 3 factors considered by MBA adcomms, an applicant's GMAT / GRE score is also quite important.

Top MBA programs extend beyond Harvard, Stanford & Wharton. Chicago, Northwestern & Berkeley are also major programs for one seeking a new employer. Dartmouth also does quite well with respect to placement.

USNews shows percentage of graduates employed at graduation as well as average starting salary & bonus.

Listing the top 14 MBA programs in order of percentage of graduates employed at graduation (followed by average starting salary & bonus) :

1) Chicago 87.4% $138,000
2) Virginia 86.8% $136,500
3) Penn (Wharton) 84.3% $142,500
4) Dartmouth 83.8% $142,500
5) Duke 81.8% $137,000
6) Michigan 81.3% $140,500
7) Northwestern 80.7% $136,500
8 MIT 79.6% $143,000
9) Harvard 76.9% $145,000
10) Columbia 75.7% $139,000

11) Stanford 73.6% $143,000
12) NYU 74.9% $136,000
13) UCal-Berkeley $141,000
14) Yale 69.4% $127,000

Cornell also places well at 79.6% & $132,500.
Univ. of Washington 83.1% $125,500.

USNews ranking MBA programs by full-time average GMAT score:

1) Stanford 732
2) Penn (Wharton) 728
3) Harvard 726
4) Chicago 724
5) NYU 721
6) Yale 719
7) UCal-Berkeley 717
8 Columbia 716
8 Dartmouth 716
10) UCLA 715
11) MIT 713
12) Northwestern 713
13) Virginia 706
14) Michigan 702

15) WashUStL 699
16) UNC 697
17) Cornell 692
18) Georgetown 691
19) Duke 690
19) Texas 690

none of those US news numbers matter

there's the M7, HBS SBS Wharton Booth CBS Sloan Kellogg, and then there are other pretty good programs, e.g. Tuck, Stern, Darden, Haas, YSOM, and then there are other MBA programs that you shouldn't go to for general business/finance/strategy interest and that you should only attend for a specific market/industry where you know they'll place you

jbagelboy wrote:none of those US news numbers matter

there's the M7, HBS SBS Wharton Booth CBS Sloan Kellogg, and then there are other pretty good programs, e.g. Tuck, Stern, Darden, Haas, YSOM, and then there are other MBA programs that you shouldn't go to for general business/finance/strategy interest and that you should only attend for a specific market/industry where you know they'll place you

this is my understanding as well in that the M7 are analogous to the T14 and HWS = HYS

Anecdotal story I know but my sisters BF went to an unremarkable undergrad and went right into an unremarkable MBA program (SJSU 1 year). He didn't have a job after graduation but 3 months landed one making 80k at Genentech. Almost made me rethink Law School, but I actually want to practice law.

you aren't supposed to "just do bschool" because bschool requires you to actually have a decent career before you go.

Calbears123 wrote:Anecdotal story I know but my sisters BF went to an unremarkable undergrad and went right into an unremarkable MBA program (SJSU 1 year). He didn't have a job after graduation but 3 months landed one making 80k at Genentech. Almost made me rethink Law School, but I actually want to practice law.

and i know JDs who went to TTTs who work at big4 making 80k a year. that does not make it a good idea.

As other posters mentioned, business school admissions is nothing like law school admissions. The single most important factor is work experience, although coming from a strong undergrad with a good GPA and a strong GMAT can mitigate work experience that would not be considered to be as prestigious. So, for example, the Brown English major with a 3.6 who worked at an NGO will most likely have a much stronger chance of getting in to a top school than a similar applicant from say Providence College. Also, you need at least 3 years of work experience. Some people get in with 2 but that is EXTREMELY rare. You should think of 3 years as the minimum and for you to get in with 3 you either had to do front-office finance, management consulting, engineering at a top tech or engineering firm (think Boeing,Merck, etc), moved up quick enough in a start-up where you were in a management position, or started your own business. I believe the average age of matriculation at most top schools is around 27 to give you an idea. Lastly, I would argue that where you go to business school matters more than with law school. After Harvard, Stanford, and Penn, you have Columbia, Chicago, NYU, and MIT. Maybe throw in Berkeley, Dartmouth, and Yale and after that I honestly wouldn't even consider going to business school.

Budfox55 wrote: After Harvard, Stanford, and Penn, you have Columbia, Chicago, NYU, and MIT. Maybe throw in Berkeley, Dartmouth, and Yale and after that I honestly wouldn't even consider going to business school.

Agree with sentiment, but Kellogg is left out and I think Stern would go with the non m7 ones

Mack.Hambleton wrote:

Budfox55 wrote: After Harvard, Stanford, and Penn, you have Columbia, Chicago, NYU, and MIT. Maybe throw in Berkeley, Dartmouth, and Yale and after that I honestly wouldn't even consider going to business school.

Agree with sentiment, but Kellogg is left out and I think Stern would go with the non m7 ones

+ Fuqua + Darden

pulstar wrote:If a 0L with a high GPA (like around a 3.8 or higher) and a 170+ score was convinced by TLS that B-school was a better option, how would he/she pursue admissions from top (whatever this means) business schools. If the 0L could achieve the same percentile score on the GMAT as he/she did on the LSAT (a 170+ would be a 98+ percentile), what kind of work experience should the 0L pursue (or already have)? Is it very difficult to find work at a place that elite business schools would consider "good"? How would other softs factor into the calculus? Are these questions too broad? Would appreciate whatever insight you could provide.

You have a great GPA. I was going to recommend an MFIN because work experience isn't a requirement, but I don't know if your degree is a technical one.

If you want to get an MBA, you could try applying to schools that don't require work experience like NYU Sterns' program. However, business school is not a good idea without work experience.

If you are a Junior right now, you can network with alumni hard if you don't have a good internship right now. You can apply to HBS 2+2, Yale Silver Scholars, and Stanford deferred admission right now. There is also Duke, Michigan, and Virginia's masters in commerce programs which have decent placement in addition to Mfin programs.

CanadianWolf wrote:MBA programs strongly prefer 3 to 5 years of post undergraduate work experience. Although work experience is easily among the top 2 or 3 factors considered by MBA adcomms, an applicant's GMAT / GRE score is also quite important.

Top MBA programs extend beyond Harvard, Stanford & Wharton. Chicago, Northwestern & Berkeley are also major programs for one seeking a new employer. Dartmouth also does quite well with respect to placement.

One of my coworkers just got into U Chicago Business School after just having worked as a legal assistant for two years. She was shocked, despite having a 3.9+ GPA and great GRE scores, as she thought she was going to need significantly more experience.

I guess my point is that you can get into top business schools even without 3 to 5 years of solid work experience, but it is very rare, even when people have top, top grades and standardized test scores.

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pulstar wrote:

Lawdood wrote:You have a great GPA. I was going to recommend an MFIN because work experience isn't a requirement, but I don't know if your degree is a technical one.

Budfox55 wrote: The single most important factor is work experience, although coming from a strong undergrad with a good GPA and a strong GMAT can mitigate work experience that would not be considered to be as prestigious. So, for example, the Brown English major with a 3.6 who worked at an NGO will most likely have a much stronger chance of getting in to a top school than a similar applicant from say Providence College. Also, you need at least 3 years of work experience. Some people get in with 2 but that is EXTREMELY rare. You should think of 3 years as the minimum and for you to get in with 3 you either had to do front-office finance, management consulting, engineering at a top tech or engineering firm (think Boeing,Merck, etc), moved up quick enough in a start-up where you were in a management position, or started your own business.

FluidMosaic wrote:If you are a Junior right now, you can network with alumni hard if you don't have a good internship right now. You can apply to HBS 2+2, Yale Silver Scholars, and Stanford deferred admission right now. There is also Duke, Michigan, and Virginia's masters in commerce programs which have decent placement in addition to Mfin programs.

I just finished my undergrad in engineering (from a state school) and I'm about to start working at a national lab (think Lawrence Berkeley, Argonne, MIT Lincoln.... would one of these be on par with a "top tech or engineering firm"?). Ive deferred my law school admission, but im starting to rethink LS because of a lot of things ive been reading on TLS. I dont think I want to work at a lab and do engineering things for very long, so I've started looking into finance/banking as an option and Im wondering how I could pursue that.

If you can get an MFIN from MIT, Princeton or get into Columbia business schools' mfe (financial economics not financial engineering) program ,then you should have no problem getting a job in banking. Note that this doesn't mean a job in the investment banking division like M&A becuse your story won't make sense ( Why switch from such a technical field to M&A?) although not impossible. If you think that you'd be better suited for a technical job in banking, then your 3.8 engineering degree is a blessing. Apply to financial engineering programs like Columbias' MSFE, cornell fe, MIT Mfin (has a technical track), Princeton MFIN (same as MIT) and many others.

Although, I wouldn't rule out law school. I am also a quantitative oriented person and for some odd reason i'm more interested in Law than both finance and financial engineering.

Only do this though if you get into a top school. Hell, you could go into patent/IP law. Your GPA is great and in a discipline that opens a lot of doors, so make sure you think long and hard.

BTW what is your LSAT/GMAT/GRE scores, if you've taken any of them?

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NoBladesNoBows wrote:FYI an MFin would get you a job as a quant, not a banker. According to my friends in the industry, quants are treated as somewhat of second class citizens by the bankers, and are pretty much stuck in the backroom doing (you guessed it) quantitative analysis all day.

That's not necessarily true. If you get into a top MFin program, you'll have the option of being a quantitative trader at a bank or a hedge fund. In fact, I'll say that most traditional quants (who do pure quantitative analysis) come from lower ranked MFin programs. However you are right in that being a quant (not a quantitative trader) does fucking blow. You definitely are treated as a second class citizen, and are essentially a bitch to traders. I wouldnt recommend anyone to go into that route.

Source: I did interest rate trading at a BB for a year.

Mack.Hambleton wrote:

Budfox55 wrote: After Harvard, Stanford, and Penn, you have Columbia, Chicago, NYU, and MIT. Maybe throw in Berkeley, Dartmouth, and Yale and after that I honestly wouldn't even consider going to business school.

Agree with sentiment, but Kellogg is left out and I think Stern would go with the non m7 ones

You right. Missed Northwestern and I think Stern would def be in for finance and out for other things. But either way, same general idea.

Budfox55 wrote:

Mack.Hambleton wrote:

Budfox55 wrote: After Harvard, Stanford, and Penn, you have Columbia, Chicago, NYU, and MIT. Maybe throw in Berkeley, Dartmouth, and Yale and after that I honestly wouldn't even consider going to business school.

Agree with sentiment, but Kellogg is left out and I think Stern would go with the non m7 ones

You right. Missed Northwestern and I think Stern would def be in for finance and out for other things. But either way, same general idea.

Cornell is up there for Finance roles. They are one of the few non- M7 schools with EB's coming to their OCR.

pulstar wrote:
I'll have to do some research on those programs. Thanks for the advice.
Yeah right now my plan is to do patent/IP after law school. I have a full ride from a lower T-14, so that might just be my best option even if I am just after the money.
172 on the LSAT. I havent taken the GMAT or GRE.

Something to think about if your lower T14 has a strong MBA program (e.g. Duke, UVA) is a joint degree, especially if your profile doesn't project as a really strong admit to the MBA program. Schools definitely seem to have a (slightly) lower bar for joint students. It's not going to be the difference between no chance and for-sure getting in, but it can move you from waitlist to admit in some cases.


I am a rising 2L in JD/MBA at HS, and I have no formal work experience post-UG. Now, I have a fairly unique profile of startups and consulting work during UG, but the point remains that I am 100% convinced that being admitted to the law school moved me from waitlist to admit at the b-school. The work options I had coming out of UG would not have profiled to the level of b-school I am in now.