JD as Dr.

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LabRat
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby LabRat » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:35 pm

jms263 wrote:
yanksbgood wrote:Whether people should actually call you Dr. is a whole other debate, but quite frankly, no you should not be called doctor. Although PhDs should definetly be called doctor, in my opinion doing so sounds funny (you ever call your professors in undergrad, dr?). Yet, I understand they earned the degree.


If you did call your professor "Dr.," then you were (unknowingly) insulting him/her. Professor is the only appropriate salutation unless things are vastly different in the sciences from the humanities. If I'd put Dr. so and so for who I wanted to work for on grad school apps, I'd have expected a rejection.

As for me, I'm not going to go by Dr. Jim when I get my PhD (Chemistry, submitting in March and walking in May). I would want to punch myself in the face if I directed someone to refer to me as Dr.

I do hope a PhD helps more in law school applications than people around here seem to think!


Where the hell did you go for your PhD? "Dr." is ABSOLUTELY acceptable, though in my department we rarely used anything but first names, even in a classroom environment. Except for the med students. They are always determined to be formal. Professor is also acceptable, of course.

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jms263
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby jms263 » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:03 pm

We're very informal around the department as well. I refer to every professor I interact with by their first name. I'm not saying that a professor's going to take it personally if you're calling him Dr. Smith instead of Professor Smith, but you are certainly referring to him/her by a lesser title.

I think if you're calling someone by their professional title, then you should give them the respect of making it the most qualifying one. If you were sending out emails looking for possible post-docs and you titled the email Dr. Potentialboss instead of Professor Potentialboss, I feel you would be making a big mistake, don't you?

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Pavlov's Cat
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby Pavlov's Cat » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:06 pm

LabRat wrote:Where the hell did you go for your PhD? "Dr." is ABSOLUTELY acceptable

Yeah, where I work, the vast majority of our clients have Ph.D.s in the sciences, and they all refer to themselves and their colleagues as Dr. -- and this is in material that their colleagues are going to see and have to sign off on. So I don't think Dr. is usually an insult. It might vary by institution or by region, though; I do remember one client who insisted on going by Prof. rather than Dr.

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brokendowncar
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby brokendowncar » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:27 pm

brokendowncar wrote:Just wondering, but why would anyone get an SJD? I assumed it was for professors or something, but few of the professor bios indicate this being true. Any thoughts?

Anyone?

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LabRat
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby LabRat » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:36 pm

jms263 wrote:We're very informal around the department as well. I refer to every professor I interact with by their first name. I'm not saying that a professor's going to take it personally if you're calling him Dr. Smith instead of Professor Smith, but you are certainly referring to him/her by a lesser title.

I think if you're calling someone by their professional title, then you should give them the respect of making it the most qualifying one. If you were sending out emails looking for possible post-docs and you titled the email Dr. Potentialboss instead of Professor Potentialboss, I feel you would be making a big mistake, don't you?


I find either title to be acceptable. I understand your point, but I have also heard the opposite: "Dr." is more prestigious because any bumpkin can get a job teaching (note that I don't agree with this; teaching at an advanced level is damn hard). In today's reality, though, I really don't believe it matters, even on an application for post-doc. Give an applicable, correct title and spell their name correctly. Anyone who gets offended because they think you have insulted them with a lesser title is someone you desperately want to avoid working for! A post-doc is hard enough without a stuck-up prick as a PI.

I will second the love of the German method: Herr Doctor Professor Solicitor LabRat just has a ring to it...
Last edited by LabRat on Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

patentlaw
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby patentlaw » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:37 pm

I think if you're calling someone by their professional title, then you should give them the respect of making it the most qualifying one. If you were sending out emails looking for possible post-docs and you titled the email Dr. Potentialboss instead of Professor Potentialboss, I feel you would be making a big mistake, don't you?


I made the mistake of calling a professor of mine Dr. once, she lit into me about it. At the time I didn't really realize that it was such a big deal, and Dr. always seemed to convey more respect (to me at the time). Then when I studied abroad I would call all the lecturers Professor and they would constantly tell me not to. Apparently, Professor was reserved for the head of the department or something like that so it wasn't appropriate to call everyone Professor. Hard to get used to aftergetting torn a new one for not using it before.

I think people do get the SJD for teaching, but it's more common (and possible more marketable) to get a PhD in a related field (econ, sociology, philosophy, etc.).

finalnight
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby finalnight » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:35 pm

kevsocko wrote:Lawyer's are prohibited from using Dr. in their title.

actually they can, aba changed the rule in 03.

Terminal degree in law though is JSD or SJD depending on school's choice.

I personally would like the title SSJ4. Those of you who know what it means want it too.

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brokendowncar
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby brokendowncar » Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:55 pm

I would like to know what it means. Fill me in.

nailbiter
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby nailbiter » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:01 pm

Re: German styles

In Germany, holding a professorship requires both a minimum term of lecturing and the completion of Habilitation. Therefore, professor > PhD, and many habilitated academics are not professors.

link

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brokendowncar
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby brokendowncar » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:03 pm

finalnight wrote:
kevsocko wrote:Lawyer's are prohibited from using Dr. in their title.

actually they can, aba changed the rule in 03.

Terminal degree in law though is JSD or SJD depending on school's choice.

I personally would like the title SSJ4. Those of you who know what it means want it too.

I just googled it, and I pray your answer is less nerdy than the one I found :lol:

Walt 1973
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby Walt 1973 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:28 am

In professional degrees, a terminal degree is the highest degree that allows you to practice in your profession. In law, that’s a J.D. In academic degrees, a Ph.D. is considered the terminal degree. That does not mean that there are not higher degrees such as S.J.D.s. Some degrees are tricky--a master of fine arts or MFA is considered a terminal degree and holders can obtain full-professorships.

I update a major university’s college catalog, and we have this discussion every year. Some people are very picky about their titles; some aren’t. Either way, we still get a lot of calls about this.

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nonunique
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby nonunique » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:04 am

In professional degrees, a terminal degree is the highest degree that allows you to practice in your profession. In law, that’s a J.D.


Don't you mean lowest? Why does it make sense to refer to that as "terminal"? (See also here). I'm aware that, for purposes of assigning the rank of "professor," many universities consider all kinds of things "terminal." It just never made sense to me.

Walt 1973
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby Walt 1973 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:37 am

OK. How about the degree. We are accredited by the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools, so we use their guidelines when reporting faculty educational attainment and performing our ten-year self-assessment. I am not familiar with other accreditation agencies’ definition of "terminal."

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Ipsa Dixit
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby Ipsa Dixit » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:47 am

nonunique wrote:you can call yourself whatever the hell you like, but you may be laughed at for it. Besides, do you REALLY want to sound like that guy who gets all huffy because people don't call him Dr?


TITCR!

JSandlin
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby JSandlin » Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:35 pm

I know this seems a bit delayed by where it comes in on the post but...

Having actually taken graduate courses, I don't think getting a PhD is much harder than getting a JD. When describing what you had to do to get a PhD to somebody outside the profession you can make it seem impossibly complicated, but usually by the time you have four B.S. or masters degree you already know so much about the topic you are looking at that all you are doing for a PhD is following up with extensive, focused research on one particular topic in your field.

The reason getting a JD would be comparable is that it requires you to think in a completely different manner than before, no matter what your undergraduate degrees are in. I believe the reading load would probably be just as extensive in a JD program as a PhD, the only differnece being that a JD won't have to write a giant thesis. Instead they have to deal with much more peer competition, much more classes, and completely new information.

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wen5000
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby wen5000 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:20 pm

PhD's in academic subjects deserve to be called Doctors, and no one else. You need to produce research and become ridiculously learned in your field. Just as a Bachelor's degree is supposed to be an academic degree that you receive in an academic subject, Doctorate is the same but more advanced. Taking "PhD courses" does not a PhD make. A good benchmark would be "necessary to hold a job at a major university in an academic subject."

JD, MD, MBA are all professional degrees. They were certifications of being able to perform a certain line of work (practice law, medicine, and do accounting/finance/whatever), and are, in nature, no different than getting a bar tending degree. The fact that there's a powerful labor union in the medical profession, which makes getting into med school incredibly difficult and makes doctors incredibly rich, does not an MD into a PhD. After all, the PhD is a Doctor of Philosophy, as in, love of knowledge. An MD is only a doctor in the sense that you call him when you're sick.

Hmm, this post came off as very...in your face, but I didn't mean it that way. I'm only trying to be strict and get to the root of the word/meaning of Doctor.

finalnight
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby finalnight » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:30 pm

brokendowncar wrote:
finalnight wrote:
kevsocko wrote:Lawyer's are prohibited from using Dr. in their title.

actually they can, aba changed the rule in 03.

Terminal degree in law though is JSD or SJD depending on school's choice.

I personally would like the title SSJ4. Those of you who know what it means want it too.

I just googled it, and I pray your answer is less nerdy than the one I found :lol:


No its not, and in Japan its a national religion. lol.

Weez
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby Weez » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:28 pm

Curiosity got the better of me and I googled it too. Not what I was expecting at all.

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brokendowncar
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby brokendowncar » Fri Feb 15, 2008 9:16 am

HAHA, wow. You've definitely outed yourself.

patentlaw
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby patentlaw » Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:27 am

After all, the PhD is a Doctor of Philosophy, as in, love of knowledge. An MD is only a doctor in the sense that you call him when you're sick.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. Doctor is used to refer to a medical professional, yes and so what? That means that they're not real doctors? The use of the term doctor to refer to a medical professional dates to 1377, it's true that the use of Doctor for an academic of the highest degree predates that, but it's only by a whopping 2 years.

glsd56
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby glsd56 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:56 am

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Last edited by glsd56 on Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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erpguy
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby erpguy » Sat Feb 23, 2008 3:44 am

finalnight wrote:
brokendowncar wrote:I just googled it, and I pray your answer is less nerdy than the one I found :lol:


No its not, and in Japan its a national religion. lol.


You could probably slip SSJ4 into a list of acronyms like PMP, CFA, CCE, APICS, CPIM, CCNA, MCSE on your resume and most people wouldn't even notice. Who knows what half of those things are anyway?

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spree234
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby spree234 » Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:43 am

Wow this thread seems to have had some passionate debate! I think we all need to step back though and think, 'With the current perception held by the general population, do we really want to be 'Doctors of Law'??...doesn't that sound a little shady?'...like oh let me just go 'doctor' this horse race or something like that.

It's bad enough that we will be 'practicing law'. I always hated that about the medical and legal professions. When you're sick or about to get sued, you don't want to talk to some idiot (doctor or not) that is readily admitting that he is 'practicing' his profession. I'd want to talk to the one that is done 'practicing' and finally has it right! :wink:

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cej13
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby cej13 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:25 pm

Disciplinary Rule 2-102 permitted a J.D. or LL.M. (master of law) recipient to use doctor with his or her name, the committee concluded in ABA Informal Opinion 1152 (1970).

http://www.abajournal.com/magazine/lawy ... ctors_too/

finalnight
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Re: JD as Dr.

Postby finalnight » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:56 pm

Woah, someone decided to cast a rez spell on this thread.




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