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Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:24 am
by DeeCee
dr123 wrote:
1: Hello, Mr. _____
2: Oh, it's Dr. _____
1: oh sorry, what type of medicine do you practice
2: I'm a Dr. of Russian Literature

...then you're a fuckin douche.


Love this. I've always thought this was annoying

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:45 am
by aliarrow
blowhard wrote:
I've never heard someone orally called esquire...only in correspondence. Most lawyers use it...


Yeah I think all do. It's just the default title when writing correspondence. It's helpful in determining who's the lawyer when you're sending out/receiving many packets of legal docs.

I still find the word 'esquire' annoying. It sounds like a medieval servant.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 12:48 am
by Moral_Midgetry
DeeCee wrote:
dr123 wrote:
1: Hello, Mr. _____
2: Oh, it's Dr. _____
1: oh sorry, what type of medicine do you practice
2: I'm a Dr. of Russian Literature

...then you're a fuckin douche.


Love this. I've always thought this was annoying


+1, Being called a Doctor as a Phd is something pretentious academics do to feel validation for their largely irrelevant lives.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:00 am
by geoduck
Moral_Midgetry wrote:
DeeCee wrote:
dr123 wrote:
1: Hello, Mr. _____
2: Oh, it's Dr. _____
1: oh sorry, what type of medicine do you practice
2: I'm a Dr. of Russian Literature

...then you're a fuckin douche.


Love this. I've always thought this was annoying


+1, Being called a Doctor as a Phd is something pretentious academics do to feel validation for their largely irrelevant lives.


This cracks me up since "Doctor" essentially means "teacher/academic" in Latin. In Germany, land of the famous "Herr Dokter ___", medical professionals are referred to as "Arzt". Originally, you had to be a "pretentious academic" for most of your life before being given the title of Doctor. We just associate the term with medical Doctors because in England you didn't really need to get a doctorate for any other major profession. I think that if you have completed a research degree (PhD, SJD, ScD, etc.) then you have more than earned the right to demand the title "Doctor".

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:27 am
by coldshoulder
geoduck wrote:
Moral_Midgetry wrote:
DeeCee wrote:
dr123 wrote:
1: Hello, Mr. _____
2: Oh, it's Dr. _____
1: oh sorry, what type of medicine do you practice
2: I'm a Dr. of Russian Literature

...then you're a fuckin douche.


Love this. I've always thought this was annoying


+1, Being called a Doctor as a Phd is something pretentious academics do to feel validation for their largely irrelevant lives.


This cracks me up since "Doctor" essentially means "teacher/academic" in Latin. In Germany, land of the famous "Herr Dokter ___", medical professionals are referred to as "Arzt". Originally, you had to be a "pretentious academic" for most of your life before being given the title of Doctor. We just associate the term with medical Doctors because in England you didn't really need to get a doctorate for any other major profession. I think that if you have completed a research degree (PhD, SJD, ScD, etc.) then you have more than earned the right to demand the title "Doctor".

+1

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:43 am
by prezidentv8
geoduck wrote:I think that if you have completed a research degree (PhD, SJD, ScD, etc.) then you have more than earned the right to demand the title "Doctor".

Just because you can....

doesn't mean you should.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:48 am
by dr123
Just because they earned the right to demand being called doctor, doesn't mean they're not a douche for doing so. Just sayin'.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 1:50 am
by DeeCee
really, who cares? If I had a PhD rather than a JD, I wouldn't walk around demanding everyone call me doctor.

I actually think that it's more fun to get people to call you master after you've earned your MS/MA :wink:

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:14 am
by Kabuo
DeeCee wrote:really, who cares? If I had a PhD rather than a JD, I wouldn't walk around demanding everyone call me doctor.

I actually think that it's more fun to get people to call you master after you've earned your MS/MA :wink:


OMG RACE BAITING.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:17 am
by 09042014
dr123 wrote:Just because they earned the right to demand being called doctor, doesn't mean they're not a douche for doing so. Just sayin'.


They only earned the right for that school to call them Doctor. It'll be a cold day in hell before I call some dbag a doctor just because he spent 7 years researching the political effects of lowering the voting age in rural Kansas. It's not research if nobody cares, nor ever reads it.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:18 am
by DeeCee
Kabuo wrote:
DeeCee wrote:really, who cares? If I had a PhD rather than a JD, I wouldn't walk around demanding everyone call me doctor.

I actually think that it's more fun to get people to call you master after you've earned your MS/MA :wink:


OMG RACE BAITING.


What the fuck? Not cute.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:28 am
by geoduck
Desert Fox wrote:
dr123 wrote:Just because they earned the right to demand being called doctor, doesn't mean they're not a douche for doing so. Just sayin'.


They only earned the right for that school to call them Doctor. It'll be a cold day in hell before I call some dbag a doctor just because he spent 7 years researching the political effects of lowering the voting age in rural Kansas. It's not research if nobody cares, nor ever reads it.


Then why give your physician a reach around for having completed a mere professional degree? There is no more philology in getting an MD than getting a JD, and excessive and pointless academic research and teaching is literally what doctor is referring to. You only call him a doctor instead of a physician or urologist or surgeon because a bunch of cockney wankers were too dumb to realize that "doctor" wasn't the part of the title that represented whether or not a man could treat their syphilis.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:35 am
by coldshoulder
geoduck wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
dr123 wrote:Just because they earned the right to demand being called doctor, doesn't mean they're not a douche for doing so. Just sayin'.


They only earned the right for that school to call them Doctor. It'll be a cold day in hell before I call some dbag a doctor just because he spent 7 years researching the political effects of lowering the voting age in rural Kansas. It's not research if nobody cares, nor ever reads it.


Then why give your physician a reach around for having completed a mere professional degree? There is no more philology in getting an MD than getting a JD, and excessive and pointless academic research and teaching is literally what doctor is referring to. You only call him a doctor instead of a physician or urologist or surgeon because a bunch of cockney wankers were too dumb to realize that "doctor" wasn't the part of the title that represented whether or not a man could treat their syphilis.


Agreed. I'll put a good researcher/professor above an MD any day, they are much more central to the advancement of knowledge and education. Just because the average person doesn't see the direct effect of research from a sociologist or chemist doesn't mean they don't benefit from that research.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:37 am
by prezidentv8
coldshoulder wrote:Just because the average person doesn't see the direct effect of research from a sociologist...

:lol:

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:59 am
by notanumber
prezidentv8 wrote:
coldshoulder wrote:Just because the average person doesn't see the direct effect of research from a sociologist...

:lol:


You'd be surprised. . .

Academic sociology may not have much of an impact on policy today, but a huge chunk of our political system, for better or worse, is based on sociological research from the '30s. Not that people really know that, seeing as how history and sociology, along with most other humanities and social sciences, have basically been ejected from the American education system. . .

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 4:56 am
by Kabuo
DeeCee wrote:
Kabuo wrote:
DeeCee wrote:really, who cares? If I had a PhD rather than a JD, I wouldn't walk around demanding everyone call me doctor.

I actually think that it's more fun to get people to call you master after you've earned your MS/MA :wink:


OMG RACE BAITING.


What the fuck? Not cute.


Seemed like a pretty standard comment to make. Guess I've been reading too much ATL.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:10 am
by Skyhook
dr123 wrote:Just because they earned the right to demand being called doctor, doesn't mean they're not a douche for doing so. Just sayin'.


Desert Fox wrote:They only earned the right for that school to call them Doctor. It'll be a cold day in hell before I call some dbag a doctor just because he spent 7 years researching the political effects of lowering the voting age in rural Kansas. It's not research if nobody cares, nor ever reads it.


DeeCee wrote:really, who cares? If I had a PhD rather than a JD, I wouldn't walk around demanding everyone call me doctor.

I actually think that it's more fun to get people to call you master after you've earned your MS/MA :wink:


But you'd call most academics Professor?

What is so douchey about calling someone with a PhD Dr?

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:45 am
by DocHawkeye
As a holder of a Ph.D., I can say that I have never actually asked someone to call me "Doctor." My students sometimes do it and I don't mind. They often address me by first name which I don't mind. They sometimes call me Mr. or Professor, both of which I hate (Mr. sounds elementary-school-ish and I am not, technically, a professor).

The only time I have ever used the title socially was at my wedding (i.e.: I now present for the first time Dr. and Mrs...). Nobody there would have been confused about my ability to practice medicine.

While still a 0L, I still believe that there is a gulf between the complexity of a law degree and the complexity of a Ph.D. This is not to say that a J.D. is not rigorous. I have no doubt that it is. I expect the coursework to be demanding and the exams to be stressful. The important difference is that while earning a Ph.D., one is called upon repeatedly to demonstrate both a breadth and depth of knowledge in one's field. In addition to the coursework, one is required to pass a set of examinations. In my case, there were three - the qualifying exam (given in the first year assuming you come in with a master's degree in hand) where one demonstrates one's knowledge of the literature of the field in a four-hour written and two-hour oral examination. After one completes the coursework (generally after the second year) one takes the comprehensive exams (five four hour questions given on back to back days, each tackling in in-depth problem in literature, history, or analysis). After completing a dissertation, it must be defended - in my case the dissertation committee was five faculty members, four from my department reflecting the range of sub-specialties in the department and one from another department, largely there to insure that the defense is handled with the appropriate rigor. All of this was on top of a substantial course load - 72 post baccalaureate semester hours (40 of which were post masters degree) with the accompanying papers, presentations, final examinations and so on as well as work outside of school - being active in professional organizations, attending conferences, presenting one's research, and so on. It's just a different ballgame.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:27 am
by Skyhook
DocHawkeye wrote:As a holder of a Ph.D., I can say that I have never actually asked someone to call me "Doctor." My students sometimes do it and I don't mind. They often address me by first name which I don't mind. They sometimes call me Mr. or Professor, both of which I hate (Mr. sounds elementary-school-ish and I am not, technically, a professor).

The only time I have ever used the title socially was at my wedding (i.e.: I now present for the first time Dr. and Mrs...). Nobody there would have been confused about my ability to practice medicine.

While still a 0L, I still believe that there is a gulf between the complexity of a law degree and the complexity of a Ph.D. This is not to say that a J.D. is not rigorous. I have no doubt that it is. I expect the coursework to be demanding and the exams to be stressful. The important difference is that while earning a Ph.D., one is called upon repeatedly to demonstrate both a breadth and depth of knowledge in one's field. In addition to the coursework, one is required to pass a set of examinations. In my case, there were three - the qualifying exam (given in the first year assuming you come in with a master's degree in hand) where one demonstrates one's knowledge of the literature of the field in a four-hour written and two-hour oral examination. After one completes the coursework (generally after the second year) one takes the comprehensive exams (five four hour questions given on back to back days, each tackling in in-depth problem in literature, history, or analysis). After completing a dissertation, it must be defended - in my case the dissertation committee was five faculty members, four from my department reflecting the range of sub-specialties in the department and one from another department, largely there to insure that the defense is handled with the appropriate rigor. All of this was on top of a substantial course load - 72 post baccalaureate semester hours (40 of which were post masters degree) with the accompanying papers, presentations, final examinations and so on as well as work outside of school - being active in professional organizations, attending conferences, presenting one's research, and so on. It's just a different ballgame.


Indeed, every semester to clear up confusion, I say to my students you can call me Dr, Dr Skyhook or even my first name if you feel comfortable with that, and so I get a range depending on the student's attitude, not necessarily age.

I'm not fond of Sir, although I see this is just being polite.
I'm not a Professor and it sounds weird; I suppose students are programmed that way.
But I don't like being called Mr. either, since I wouldn't have addressed my instructors at uni as Mr when I knew full well they were PhD's.
I had one student who would say "Mr...um...Dr...um...Skyhook" much to everyone's amusement.
All of my academic correspondence contains a "Dr Skyhook, X College" signature as you might expect. Hardly being pompous to expect people who have it there in black and white to address you in the expected way. It suggests a lack of attention to detail and/or respect to do otherwise.

Anyway, in my cultural background, physicians and PhD's are Dr's, no-one else is. So I am quite used to writing formal correspondence, or filling out forms, and putting Dr or ticking the relevant box. It's the standard convention for someone of my background. However, I don't get irked by someone calling me Mr in everyday life - I'm not that self-important!
Some of the Law School application forms had Dr boxes to tick, which I did.
Harvard even allowed you to choose Captain or Lieutenant!

------
DocHawkeye, is your PhD in music?
That seems like it was a lot more gruelling than a PhD in science! Almost my entire time was spent in the lab.
A JD doesn't seem to me to be as tough as a PhD. Yes, the courses are hard - no doubt for several reasons including volume of work, unfamiliarity, pressure to get 1L grades. And I am anxious about embarking on a JD, so I'm not saying this a cakewalk by any means, but it's not hardcore research.

I wonder how people feel about a PhD earned by instruction only i.e, taking courses?
When job-hunting in science you have to state whether the PhD is by research or coursework, so clearly there is a level of distinction, which I happen to agree with.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 10:41 am
by Moral_Midgetry
geoduck wrote:
Moral_Midgetry wrote:
DeeCee wrote:
dr123 wrote:
1: Hello, Mr. _____
2: Oh, it's Dr. _____
1: oh sorry, what type of medicine do you practice
2: I'm a Dr. of Russian Literature

...then you're a fuckin douche.


Love this. I've always thought this was annoying


+1, Being called a Doctor as a Phd is something pretentious academics do to feel validation for their largely irrelevant lives.


This cracks me up since "Doctor" essentially means "teacher/academic" in Latin. In Germany, land of the famous "Herr Dokter ___", medical professionals are referred to as "Arzt". Originally, you had to be a "pretentious academic" for most of your life before being given the title of Doctor. We just associate the term with medical Doctors because in England you didn't really need to get a doctorate for any other major profession. I think that if you have completed a research degree (PhD, SJD, ScD, etc.) then you have more than earned the right to demand the title "Doctor".


Then I demand the right to call that person a douche bag.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:16 am
by AreJay711
Moral_Midgetry wrote:
geoduck wrote:This cracks me up since "Doctor" essentially means "teacher/academic" in Latin. In Germany, land of the famous "Herr Dokter ___", medical professionals are referred to as "Arzt". Originally, you had to be a "pretentious academic" for most of your life before being given the title of Doctor. We just associate the term with medical Doctors because in England you didn't really need to get a doctorate for any other major profession. I think that if you have completed a research degree (PhD, SJD, ScD, etc.) then you have more than earned the right to demand the title "Doctor".


Then I demand the right to call that person a douche bag.


Anyone that demands a title is a douche. I mean I usually give it to them because I tend to be on the respectful side (Read I kiss ass) but to bother correcting someone is pretentious.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:19 am
by firemed
aliarrow wrote:
I still find the word 'esquire' annoying. It sounds like a medieval servant.


It is a derivation of "squire"... the assistant to a knight... if I remember correctly. I believe it indicated that one was more than a serf, but less than a lord, and generally referred to landed gentry of the lowest social class of the nobility.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:37 am
by 09042014
Yea esquire is TTT. Do most lawyers just do John Doe, JD?

Also can I make pretentious PhD's call me Bachelor Fox?

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 11:57 am
by Skyhook
Desert Fox wrote:Yea esquire is TTT. Do most lawyers just do John Doe, JD?

Also can I make pretentious PhD's call me Bachelor Fox?


Only if you are not yet married.

Re: JD as Dr.

Posted: Tue May 17, 2011 2:18 pm
by geoduck
firemed wrote:
aliarrow wrote:
I still find the word 'esquire' annoying. It sounds like a medieval servant.


It is a derivation of "squire"... the assistant to a knight... if I remember correctly. I believe it indicated that one was more than a serf, but less than a lord, and generally referred to landed gentry of the lowest social class of the nobility.


Yay wikipedia! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esquire

Yes it came out of squires. For a while, it was basically used to refer to anyone in the gentry of non-noble birth, which in a way is what it is used for in the US, just confined to those that enter gentry via law. But the age of the term is a silly thing to be concerned about. "Mister" comes from "monsieur" or "my lord/sir" and was a generic term for the non-titled gentry and/or anyone above your social status.