JD as Dr. Forum

[Diana341]

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[un3r3stimat3d]

Stanford calls their JD degree a Doctorate of Law.

[LabRat]

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And as for this little doozy

Today one must have 84 to 90 post-baccalaureate hours to receive a J.D. degree. A Master of Law degree calls for 110 to 120 post-baccalaureate hours. Comparing this to the 60 hours of academic instruction plus a written dissertation, required for a Doctor of Philosophy degree, one must agree that the legal degrees are at least comparable.

I actually don't think the two are very comparable at all, and I think the idea that one "must" agree with that statement is ludicrous.

Agreed. My PhD (virology) required about 50 hours of advanced classwork, a semester of teaching a bunch of med students (yay fun), and 6 *%^%&^$ years of research. Oh, and I published 3 research papers and wrote a thesis, which is where the actual "Dr." part comes from. Original work, and a hell of a lot of it. I really don't believe the JD or LLM is comparable. My wife, a science PhD and a JD, agrees.

[RATRATRAT]

[Mosel]

Wikipedia certainly offers some interesting insight into the matter. I particularly like the part about how originally, nearly all professional degrees were seen as "doctors" and they simply specified the type: a physician was either called a physician or medical doctor, and a lawyer was called a 'civil doctor'. Makes sense.

i'm not really arguing with anyone, nor am I proposing a opinion. I'm just bored at work.

However, I can't help but notice that the discussion seems to first assume the term 'doctor' as a degree that requires the hardest of hard work, and then discredits some professional degrees on the ground that they are easy. What if that isn't really the qualification at all?

That is--if 'doctor' is simply a title conferred to an individual by a univeristy at the recommendation of his peers for apt work in and committment to a field of study, perhaps the superlative nature of splitting hairs among the different 'doctors' to decide who really worked harder is all for nothing....

[goose22j]

I'm not really wanting to be called Dr., but is there any chance you could from this point forward refer to me as "Captain Goose"?

Is that really too much to ask?

[USCtrojan86]

usctrojan, you seem very passionate about this subject. I respect that, I suppose.

I just know way, waaaay too many incredibly dedicated and intelligent people with PhD's who don't get half the respect that I think they deserve for what they've had to go through to earn those three initials after their name. And at the same time, I know far to many lawyers who - while I like them as people - simply don't deserve half of the respect given to them because they have a "prestigious" title in a "prestigious" field and make a ton more $$$ than the PhD's that I know who chose a subject that they loved (researchers, music historians, etc etc.) without regard to the money. This is all based on generalities, and I don't mean to imply that there aren't plenty of lawyers who are passionate about their work and love law- I want to enter the profession for precisely that reason. My point is, I think the general perception is a bit skewed when comparing PhD/MD vs. JD by the prestige of being a lawyer and the $$$ payout that comes at the high levels, compared to what actually goes into earning the respective degrees.

I would have to agree with youthat becoming a doctor would seem to be much more difficult than becoming a lawyer.

I honestly don't think anyone in their right mind who is at all knowledgable about the requirements of each could possibly argue on that.

I would also have to agree with you that you probably have no idea.

If we're talking about whether I can attest to it from firsthand experience, I readily admit that I cannot.

But as for those doctors of philosophy, I think we part ways there. If you were interested in knowing, anyway. And if it is harder, you didn't do much to demonstrate it.

I am very interested in why you disagree- I admit that I'm just basing my opinion re: PhD's vs. JD's on what I've seen and heard from PhD candidates/law students. Why do you think JD>PhD in terms of time/energy/difficulty of material?

Getting a phd from a 4th tier university doesn't seem like it would be all that much more difficult than getting a jd from yale. But then again, I've done neither.

And as I said, I'm sure there are some PhD's from some schools in some subjects that are little more than glorified Masters. But I was speaking in generalities, and I think that generally speaking, earning a PhD is on a different level in almost every regard than earning a JD. The exceptions (truly TTT Doctoral programs vs. the finest JD program in the land) don't prove do much except prove the rule, IMO.

I would sincerely like to hear your take on it and your reasoning, however.

[MTal]

Instead of Doctor, I would much rather people address me as "Big Papa Snatch".

[Weez]

An MD is exponentially more difficult to obtain than a JD. It's not even a question. DO degrees are a bit easier that MD's but still much harder than JDs.

I agree with this:

Instead of Doctor, I would much rather people address me as "Big Papa Snatch".

[M51]

A J.D. is a doctorate-level degree... on the same level as MD, PhD, MBA, etc. It's easier to get than a MD, but that doesn't change its categorization. Officially, you are a Dr. (regardless of what ought to be, or how hard it was to get the title, etc)

Esquire is such a non-prestigious word. It was first used "professionally" to describe the knight's underlings (the ones who shoveled out the horse's shit, maintained the equipment, etc). They got more respect that the job description would suggest, but it's nothing to be proud of. Today, this is essentially what lawyers do, but it's rather insulting if you look at it historically. For respect, I'd rather just be called "Mr.".

[applyingtoschool]

In Latin America people with JD's are actually called doctors (not just by upset people on a message board who somehow just realized they wont be called Dr.). Just thought it was an interesting side note.

[nonunique]

A J.D. is a doctorate-level degree... on the same level as MD, PhD, MBA, etc. It's easier to get than a MD, but that doesn't change its categorization. Officially, you are a Dr. (regardless of what ought to be, or how hard it was to get the title, etc)

When did MBA become a doctorate degree?! I'm fairly certain (though probably wrong) that "doctoral" degrees indicate, as a previous poster hinted, a level of dedication and expertise in your field. In particular, becoming a doctor in anything except medicine (in the broad sense) requires contributing some unique, non-trivial work to the field's body of knowledge. I don't know many JDs that can claim that.

Again, in my opinion, JD is like a legal bachelors. There's LLM (literally "masters"), and SJD (literally "doctor"...of juridical sciences, whatever the fuck that means).

[USCtrojan86]

TITCR^

JD is the bachelors of the legal world, and anyone claiming otherwise simply because it has "Doctor" in it's title is .

If you really have the compelling urge to roll around demanding that people refer to you as Dr., get your SJD and we'll talk.

[brokendowncar]

Just wondering, but why would anyone get an SJD? I assumed it was for professors or something, but few of the professor bios indicate this being true. Any thoughts?

[M51]

I'm pretty sure there's a line in the FASFA that said Doctorate degrees, followed by these designations. So, at least as far as the government is concerned, J.D. and MBA are doctorate-level degrees.

A J.D. is a doctorate-level degree... on the same level as MD, PhD, MBA, etc. It's easier to get than a MD, but that doesn't change its categorization. Officially, you are a Dr. (regardless of what ought to be, or how hard it was to get the title, etc)

When did MBA become a doctorate degree?! I'm fairly certain (though probably wrong) that "doctoral" degrees indicate, as a previous poster hinted, a level of dedication and expertise in your field. In particular, becoming a doctor in anything except medicine (in the broad sense) requires contributing some unique, non-trivial work to the field's body of knowledge. I don't know many JDs that can claim that.

Again, in my opinion, JD is like a legal bachelors. There's LLM (literally "masters"), and SJD (literally "doctor"...of juridical sciences, whatever the fuck that means).

[patentlaw]

I'm pretty sure there's a line in the FASFA that said Doctorate degrees, followed by these designations. So, at least as far as the government is concerned, J.D. and MBA are doctorate-level degrees.

I don't think that changes the fact that it's a Master of Business Administration degree. The government might consider it at the same level for financial aid, but it is not a doctorate level degree.

[Aeneas]

I only started wanting to be called "Doctor" after I had started watching LOST.

[yanksbgood]

A J.D. stands for Juris Doctor, correct? So how could it not be a doctorate level degree? Furthermore, there is no such thing as a PhD of Law, therefore the J.D. is your equivalent.

Whether people should actually call you Dr. is a whole other debate, but quite frankly, no you should not be called doctor. Although PhDs should definetly be called doctor, in my opinion doing so sounds funny (you ever call your professors in undergrad, dr?). Yet, I understand they earned the degree.

[Walt 1973]

I've seen MBAs that require as few as 30 credits. Most J.D.s require about 90 credits. So, after a four-year degree, an MBA can require as little as one more year, but a J.D. is around 3 years. Therefore, they are not comparable. A J.D. is considered a first-professional degree—just like a dentist.

A J.D. can allow people to call themselves "Doctor” if they wish, but they are not considered an equivalent to an academic Ph.D. Regardless, J.D.s are still referred to as professors in an academic system. I work in academia, so we have this conversation often. We use the criteria that I stated in all of our college faculty handbook listings and correspondence.

[nonunique]

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a PhD of Law, therefore the J.D. is your equivalent.

As noted above, there are actually masters (LLM) and Doctoral (SJD) levels of legal education.

[yanksbgood]

Furthermore, there is no such thing as a PhD of Law, therefore the J.D. is your equivalent.

As noted above, there are actually masters (LLM) and Doctoral (SJD) levels of legal education.

I didnt know that. But the point I was trying to make was that a JD degree should allow you to teach law, correct?

[patentlaw]

A J.D. stands for Juris Doctor, correct? So how could it not be a doctorate level degree? Furthermore, there is no such thing as a PhD of Law, therefore the J.D. is your equivalent.

The SJD is the terminal degree, not the JD. Though at my undergrad, the JD's walked with the PhD and MD students (the MBAs did not).

[nonunique]

I didnt know that. But the point I was trying to make was that a JD degree should allow you to teach law, correct?

I've seen Masters teach as well, what's the point there?

[jms263]

Whether people should actually call you Dr. is a whole other debate, but quite frankly, no you should not be called doctor. Although PhDs should definetly be called doctor, in my opinion doing so sounds funny (you ever call your professors in undergrad, dr?). Yet, I understand they earned the degree.

If you did call your professor "Dr.," then you were (unknowingly) insulting him/her. Professor is the only appropriate salutation unless things are vastly different in the sciences from the humanities. If I'd put Dr. so and so for who I wanted to work for on grad school apps, I'd have expected a rejection.

As for me, I'm not going to go by Dr. Jim when I get my PhD (Chemistry, submitting in March and walking in May). I would want to punch myself in the face if I directed someone to refer to me as Dr.

I do hope a PhD helps more in law school applications than people around here seem to think!

[Walt 1973]

A J.D. is considered a terminal degree and allows full-professorships in academia. There are S.D.J.s, but they are rare.