So does international law really not exist?

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rpupkin
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby rpupkin » Thu May 07, 2015 5:31 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:Once I did an international law thing. Argued a motion about whether or not we correctly served some foreign dude under some service treaty. We were in a courthouse basically in the middle of the forest. So it does exist!

One time, a solicitor from a firm in London called me about obtaining third-party consent to produce a document. He referred to American lawyers as "you yanks." Obviously, I found the experience very prestigious.

nerd1
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby nerd1 » Wed May 20, 2015 8:55 pm

Of course it exists. I took an exam for an international law course few weeks ago.

To put it simply (b/c I am tired of writing about law), there are four sources of international law: 1) treaties; 2) customary international law; 3) jus cogens (peremptory norms of int'l law); 4) soft law.

International law is very different from domestic law. For instance, in the US, for non-self-executing treaties, Congress has to enact implementing statutes in order for the treaties to have the same force of law as domestic law in this country.

What doesn't exist is an international lawyer per se. The lawyers practicing corporate law overseas as associates or partners of firms with overseas offices could be called international lawyers in the sense that they practice internationally. OR the lawyers working in the ICC in the Hague as prosecutors could be international lawyers. "International lawyer" is a malleable term that doesn't make much sense without considering the context.

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abogadesq
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby abogadesq » Wed May 20, 2015 10:07 pm

I reckon one's best chance at practicing a semblance of international law would be representing or hearing refugee applicants. The law governing refugee status derives from international agreements that are incorporated into domestic law and is, as far as I know, not a particularly difficult practice area to get into.

An avenue that more directly implicates international law is to work for a law firm that represents countries before the WTO. That's not an easy job to obtain and you likely have to have at least a BA in economics.

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby nerd1 » Wed May 20, 2015 11:54 pm

abogadesq wrote:An avenue that more directly implicates international law is to work for a law firm that represents countries before the WTO. That's not an easy job to obtain and you likely have to have at least a BA in economics.


How do you know? I myself studied econ back in college and loved it. I am pretty sure the attorneys that represented countries before a WTO panel do not necessarily all have college degrees in economics.

https://www.cov.com/en/practices/intern ... ade-policy Being hired by a firm like Covington Burling that handles WTO agreements-implicated disputes would be the first step. Many firms do this in fact. They would prefer to hire JDs with excellent grades from elite law schools. And then they may consider candidates' undergrad majors. Because so many candidates would have studied economics, economics would not give anyone a boost. I am sure international relations/politics would do fine too.

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abogadesq
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby abogadesq » Thu May 21, 2015 7:41 am

nerd1 wrote:
abogadesq wrote:An avenue that more directly implicates international law is to work for a law firm that represents countries before the WTO. That's not an easy job to obtain and you likely have to have at least a BA in economics.


How do you know? I myself studied econ back in college and loved it. I am pretty sure the attorneys that represented countries before a WTO panel do not necessarily all have college degrees in economics.

https://www.cov.com/en/practices/intern ... ade-policy Being hired by a firm like Covington Burling that handles WTO agreements-implicated disputes would be the first step. Many firms do this in fact. They would prefer to hire JDs with excellent grades from elite law schools. And then they may consider candidates' undergrad majors. Because so many candidates would have studied economics, economics would not give anyone a boost. I am sure international relations/politics would do fine too.


I asked my international trade law professor about how to become a lawyer that represents countries in the WTO, and according to him most attorneys he worked with had an economics background. He himself had a master's degree in economics from Stanford. That's not to suggest you must have an economics degree, but it does sound helpful.

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby blsingindisguise » Thu May 21, 2015 11:06 am

In addition to the many spot-on posts in this thread, I'd also say that one reason for the naysaying is that most people who say they want to do "international law" have really fuzzy and vague reasons for it -- it just sounds "important" and "sexy" somehow. Sometimes people imagine they'll "use law" to help the refugees of Darfur. Other times they think "oh I'll live an international jetsetting life being an international lawyer. Brussels one week, Hong Kong the next." Or maybe nothing that specific, but it just gives them this feeling they like.

The reality is that
1) Very few lawyers literally practice "international law" (in the sense of actually dealing with something like the WTO, or a treaty) -- there aren't many opportunities like that, and honestly I'm not sure what makes them seem more appealing than any other kind of law.
2) Many lawyers work on "international litigation" or "international transactions" but the "international" there is virtually meaningless. Does it make it more exciting or interesting when I'm working on a motion to dismiss brief to know that the plaintiff or its parent company is incorporated in Germany, or in the Cayman Islands? Absolutely none. Could yiou hypothetically get to fly to another country on such a litigation? Perhaps, if you're taking a deposition that can't be done in the US (and isn't going to be done by video), but you're going to be holed up in a hotel prepping -- you're not going to climb pyramids or go dancing at the hot local club or spend four hours in the national art museum.
3) You're rarely going to deal with foreign law, because you'll more likely have lawyers based in that country or well-versed in that law to handle that aspect of the litigation or transaction, if it comes up.

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POTUSorSCOTUS
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby POTUSorSCOTUS » Thu May 21, 2015 11:10 am

Int'l law does not exist because its practically unenforceable and all laws derive from customary law. It has the allure of "international", which is just as provocative as "unicorn" or "no federal income tax"

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby nerd1 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:39 am

POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:Int'l law does not exist because its practically unenforceable and all laws derive from customary law. It has the allure of "international", which is just as provocative as "unicorn" or "no federal income tax"


Stop trolling and read others' posts before you post something.

Intl law is not just customary intl law. Ever heard of treaties? The fact that it is not as enforceable as domestic law does not mean it is not law. Countries comply nonetheless with the treaties they signed onto, because of reciprocity, retaliation and reputation. What is distinctive about intl law is that countries are only bound by things to which they agree to be bound.

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AreJay711
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby AreJay711 » Thu May 21, 2015 11:51 am

nerd1 wrote:
POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:Int'l law does not exist because its practically unenforceable and all laws derive from customary law. It has the allure of "international", which is just as provocative as "unicorn" or "no federal income tax"


Stop trolling and read others' posts before you post something.

Intl law is not just customary intl law. Ever heard of treaties? The fact that it is not as enforceable as domestic law does not mean it is not law. Countries comply nonetheless with the treaties they signed onto, because of reciprocity, retaliation and reputation. What is distinctive about intl law is that countries are only bound by things to which they agree to be bound.


TBF, there are some schools of jurisprudence that would say that international law isn't law, because there needs to be an command from a superior to an inferior actor. Enforceablility is also often seen as a requirement of some principle being a "law."

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POTUSorSCOTUS
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby POTUSorSCOTUS » Thu May 21, 2015 11:52 am

nerd1 wrote:
POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:Int'l law does not exist because its practically unenforceable and all laws derive from customary law. It has the allure of "international", which is just as provocative as "unicorn" or "no federal income tax"


Stop trolling and read others' posts before you post something.

Intl law is not just customary intl law. Ever heard of treaties? The fact that it is not as enforceable as domestic law does not mean it is not law. Countries comply nonetheless with the treaties they signed onto, because of reciprocity, retaliation and reputation. What is distinctive about intl law is that countries are only bound by things to which they agree to be bound.



Dont regurgitate your 1L international law exam bank at me you dunce. Treaties are codified customary law, and its still not enforceable.

nerd1
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby nerd1 » Thu May 21, 2015 12:03 pm

POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:
nerd1 wrote:
POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:Int'l law does not exist because its practically unenforceable and all laws derive from customary law. It has the allure of "international", which is just as provocative as "unicorn" or "no federal income tax"


Stop trolling and read others' posts before you post something.

Intl law is not just customary intl law. Ever heard of treaties? The fact that it is not as enforceable as domestic law does not mean it is not law. Countries comply nonetheless with the treaties they signed onto, because of reciprocity, retaliation and reputation. What is distinctive about intl law is that countries are only bound by things to which they agree to be bound.



Dont regurgitate your 1L international law exam bank at me you dunce. Treaties are codified customary law, and its still not enforceable.


No. Just no. Treaties are not necessarily codified international law. They are more like contracts among states. Importantly, self executing treaties have the same weight as domestic law and so are enforceable just like domestic law. Non self executing treaties (in US most are) have the same force of law as domestic law in sofar as Congress enacted implementing statutes. Those implementing legislations are enforceable just like domestic law.

I am pretty sure words coming from a to-be 2L who successfully completed an intl law course at a top law school are more credible and informative than words coming from people like you who know nothing about this area.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu May 21, 2015 1:16 pm

I'm preeeeeetty sure you are not the only person here to have taken international law at a top law school.

And it doesn't matter what exactly is when the OP really means "can I get a job doing it."

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 21, 2015 2:58 pm

nerd1 wrote:
POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:
nerd1 wrote:
POTUSorSCOTUS wrote:Int'l law does not exist because its practically unenforceable and all laws derive from customary law. It has the allure of "international", which is just as provocative as "unicorn" or "no federal income tax"


Stop trolling and read others' posts before you post something.

Intl law is not just customary intl law. Ever heard of treaties? The fact that it is not as enforceable as domestic law does not mean it is not law. Countries comply nonetheless with the treaties they signed onto, because of reciprocity, retaliation and reputation. What is distinctive about intl law is that countries are only bound by things to which they agree to be bound.



Dont regurgitate your 1L international law exam bank at me you dunce. Treaties are codified customary law, and its still not enforceable.


No. Just no. Treaties are not necessarily codified international law. They are more like contracts among states. Importantly, self executing treaties have the same weight as domestic law and so are enforceable just like domestic law. Non self executing treaties (in US most are) have the same force of law as domestic law in sofar as Congress enacted implementing statutes. Those implementing legislations are enforceable just like domestic law.

I am pretty sure words coming from a to-be 2L who successfully completed an intl law course at a top law school are more credible and informative than words coming from people like you who know nothing about this area.


This is either entirely facetious or spectacularly tone deaf/arrogant.

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby nerd1 » Thu May 21, 2015 3:13 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm preeeeeetty sure you are not the only person here to have taken international law at a top law school.

And it doesn't matter what exactly is when the OP really means "can I get a job doing it."


I answered the OP's question few posts ago. The post you are referring to is in response to a misleading comment by someone who seems to lack any knowledge about this area. And the rather offensive portion of my comment was aimed at the previous comment too.

And I will just ignore Bagelboy. Why did I bother correcting this utterly nonsense statement "treaties are just codified customary int'l law"? Someone who took an int'l law course and at least passed it would not say things like that. Such a person would not say international law doesn't exist. International lawyer probably doesn't exist, as my initial comment suggested.

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby AReasonableMan » Thu May 21, 2015 3:21 pm

International law exists in a very real way anytime you're working with an int'l client seeking to do something under US law, but not in the way most think it does. The int'l stuff is merely incidental to a practice, and not the essence of it. Your odds of practicing "int'l human rights" or working on Nuremberg types of trials are near 0. When the int'l community inevitably puts ISIS members on trial, they're not going to scour law students who did well on their int'l law exam to comprise the committee. They're going to pick the best prosecutors and litigators from around the globe. If you could apply a criminal statute to fact then you can apply, for instance, the Geneva Convention to fact.

For example, if you'd like to defend women's rights in India then American law is unenforceable. You're going to have to know Indian law so it'd make more sense to go to an Indian law school. Often times the desire to practice something like int'l human rights law stems from a basic misunderstanding of what int'l law is, and American jurisdiction abroad. Even the UN has limited jurisdiction, and you should really be asking how prevalent such jobs could possibly be if there's no "international tax" to pay for "international law enforcement" and "international prosecutors". In terms of what most people asking the question want to practice, most of the people practicing such human rights and "rules of war" type law are going to be working for governments, and advising the military on what it can and cannot do, but these people are few and far between and have decades of experience. For instance, the main reason we never killed Osama bin Laden before 9/11 despite knowing where he was in 2 different instances was because it was against int'l law to go into a foreign country to arrest him. We could only drop bombs from 30k feet up, and even then it could only be "proportional".

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 21, 2015 5:52 pm

nerd1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm preeeeeetty sure you are not the only person here to have taken international law at a top law school.

And it doesn't matter what exactly is when the OP really means "can I get a job doing it."


I answered the OP's question few posts ago. The post you are referring to is in response to a misleading comment by someone who seems to lack any knowledge about this area. And the rather offensive portion of my comment was aimed at the previous comment too.

And I will just ignore Bagelboy. Why did I bother correcting this utterly nonsense statement "treaties are just codified customary int'l law"? Someone who took an int'l law course and at least passed it would not say things like that. Such a person would not say international law doesn't exist. International lawyer probably doesn't exist, as my initial comment suggested.


I agreed with everything in your initial post - it echoed much of what I wrote a few months ago on the first page - but your triumphalism as a 1L about taking one international law class on a forum full of upper year law students and practicing attorneys was pretty absurd.

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby BigZuck » Thu May 21, 2015 7:02 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
nerd1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm preeeeeetty sure you are not the only person here to have taken international law at a top law school.

And it doesn't matter what exactly is when the OP really means "can I get a job doing it."


I answered the OP's question few posts ago. The post you are referring to is in response to a misleading comment by someone who seems to lack any knowledge about this area. And the rather offensive portion of my comment was aimed at the previous comment too.

And I will just ignore Bagelboy. Why did I bother correcting this utterly nonsense statement "treaties are just codified customary int'l law"? Someone who took an int'l law course and at least passed it would not say things like that. Such a person would not say international law doesn't exist. International lawyer probably doesn't exist, as my initial comment suggested.


I agreed with everything in your initial post - it echoed much of what I wrote a few months ago on the first page - but your triumphalism as a 1L about taking one international law class on a forum full of upper year law students and practicing attorneys was pretty absurd.

Not sure what upper year law students has to do with anything tbh. Practicing attorneys, maybe. But I probably know less about law stuff as a 2L than I did as a 1L

If it was a 3L who had taken 5 international law classes then that person wouldn't be any more qualified to talk about international law than some rando 1L IMO.

I do, of course, agree with the general sentiment though.

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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby nerd1 » Thu May 21, 2015 7:26 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
nerd1 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:I'm preeeeeetty sure you are not the only person here to have taken international law at a top law school.

And it doesn't matter what exactly is when the OP really means "can I get a job doing it."


I answered the OP's question few posts ago. The post you are referring to is in response to a misleading comment by someone who seems to lack any knowledge about this area. And the rather offensive portion of my comment was aimed at the previous comment too.

And I will just ignore Bagelboy. Why did I bother correcting this utterly nonsense statement "treaties are just codified customary int'l law"? Someone who took an int'l law course and at least passed it would not say things like that. Such a person would not say international law doesn't exist. International lawyer probably doesn't exist, as my initial comment suggested.




I agreed with everything in your initial post - it echoed much of what I wrote a few months ago on the first page - but your triumphalism as a 1L about taking one international law class on a forum full of upper year law students and practicing attorneys was pretty absurd.


Again, my offensive triumphalisic remark was aimed only at the offensive comment made by POTUS. I was saying my comment is more credible than his. Never said anything like I know everything.

I wish you would read others' comments more carefully, please.

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rpupkin
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby rpupkin » Thu May 21, 2015 7:45 pm

nerd1 wrote:Again, my offensive triumphalisic remark was aimed only at the offensive comment made by POTUS. I was saying my comment is more credible than his. Never said anything like I know everything.

I wish you would read others' comments more carefully, please.

The "please" makes this polite. Nice work, my friend.

Also, please share grade in your international law course at top law school. I need more information in order to make the requisite credibility determination.

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abogadesq
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby abogadesq » Thu May 21, 2015 8:40 pm

WTO decisions can have a real impact. See countervailing duties and retaliation. Of course, a government does not need the WTO's recommendation to actually do any of those things, but it does give them legitimacy.

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jbagelboy
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 21, 2015 9:00 pm

nerd1 wrote:Again, my offensive triumphalisic remark was aimed only at the offensive comment made by POTUS. I was saying my comment is more credible than his. Never said anything like I know everything.

I wish you would read others' comments more carefully, please.


Okay, so another poster on TLS said some dumb shit. Granted. So what? It's not like you're Harold Koh or Lori Damrosch or Hugo Grotius risen from the dead. What are you doing speaking with so much adopted authority after a semester of study. Humility is a virtue. You can correct someone without making a fool of yourself and deciding to pull out all the stops to cite your H in a 1L elective. Come on: lesson learned, move on.

nerd1
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby nerd1 » Thu May 21, 2015 9:37 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
nerd1 wrote:Again, my offensive triumphalisic remark was aimed only at the offensive comment made by POTUS. I was saying my comment is more credible than his. Never said anything like I know everything.

I wish you would read others' comments more carefully, please.


Okay, so another poster on TLS said some dumb shit. Granted. So what? It's not like you're Harold Koh or Lori Damrosch or Hugo Grotius risen from the dead. What are you doing speaking with so much adopted authority after a semester of study. Humility is a virtue. You can correct someone without making a fool of yourself and deciding to pull out all the stops to cite your H in a 1L elective. Come on: lesson learned, move on.


What a [HI I'M THE WORD FILTER. THIS PERSON MIGHT BE A DICK.]. Lesson learned: never waste time on this website. Credibility? Even if I went to a TTT that would not have made any difference, since none of what I said is wrong.

Bagelboy you have been wasting so much time on this website all the time. If I were you I would have been devoting that time to studying/journal/clinic/moot court or anything more productive that shitting on people on this pathetic website.

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jbagelboy
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby jbagelboy » Thu May 21, 2015 10:07 pm

nerd1 wrote:
jbagelboy wrote:
nerd1 wrote:Again, my offensive triumphalisic remark was aimed only at the offensive comment made by POTUS. I was saying my comment is more credible than his. Never said anything like I know everything.

I wish you would read others' comments more carefully, please.


Okay, so another poster on TLS said some dumb shit. Granted. So what? It's not like you're Harold Koh or Lori Damrosch or Hugo Grotius risen from the dead. What are you doing speaking with so much adopted authority after a semester of study. Humility is a virtue. You can correct someone without making a fool of yourself and deciding to pull out all the stops to cite your H in a 1L elective. Come on: lesson learned, move on.


What a [Hi; this person hates sunshine and kittens and pleasant things in the world]. Lesson learned: never waste time on this website. Credibility? Even if I went to a TTT that would not have made any difference, since none of what I said is wrong.

Bagelboy you have been wasting so much time on this website all the time. If I were you I would have been devoting that time to studying/journal/clinic/moot court or anything more productive that shitting on people on this pathetic website.


Sorry I upset you. Don't worry about me, I've spent plenty of time on law school; any extra minute I had sure as shit wouldn't be spent on more. If you hate TLS, feel free to quit.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: So does international law really not exist?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu May 21, 2015 11:35 pm

Whether he wants to quit TLS or not, calling someone the f-word gets you a nice little timeout. Don't do that, people.




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