Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

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fats provolone
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:15 pm

[insert random corporate job]

be an "agent" or "analyst" or "biz dev drone #3" or any of a million entry level jobs that lead to generic middle management positions with ok salaries and decent benefits and good hours.

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SweetTort
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby SweetTort » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:15 pm

romothesavior wrote:
SweetTort wrote:OK, so I've been lurking for a while and I have to ask a question.

Everyone is saying law isn't worth it. But what's the other option? If you're someone who has a 4.0 in basket weaving from Direction State University, and you have an acceptance to HYS in one hand and a full ride to a T14 in the other, what other options do you have besides law?

No, everyone certainly does not say that. Some people may hate law so much that they categorically say don't go to law school, but that's a tiny minority. Seems like you've created a TLS strawman.



Less of a straw man and more my situation. I've currently got a 4.2+ in a useless major and my last PT was a 173, so I've been feeling good, but these threads scare me. Is it naive to think I could go to law school and be happy later in life?

muskies970
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby muskies970 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:16 pm

SweetTort wrote:
fats provolone wrote:
SweetTort wrote:OK, so I've been lurking for a while and I have to ask a question.

Everyone is saying law isn't worth it. But what's the other option? If you're someone who has a 4.0 in basket weaving from Direction State University, and you have an acceptance to HYS in one hand and a full ride to a T14 in the other, what other options do you have besides law?

phd in basket weaving -> basket weaving think tank -> CNN basket weaving correspondent



I know this is a joke, but isn't academia more of a crapshoot than law these days? Like, I'm honestly asking, what else can those of us with terrible majors do?


If you have an acceptance to HYS or full ride to a T14, take either option and if you end up liking law stay in the profession or spend 3 years either gaining a prestigious degree or a pretty prestigious degree for free and move on to something non law related.

If you have the 4.0 in a liberal arts and can't find a job/do horribly on the LSAT and can't get into a T14, probably accept and embrace mediocrity and a ~40k paying job a year that will provide for comfortability and no debt instead of pursuing law school as a pipe dream to making it rich.

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Skool
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:18 pm

ymmv wrote:"The public" isn't even close to giving a shit about the woes of law students and lawyers just fyi.

What about people who donate to law schools and universities?

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utahraptor
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby utahraptor » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:26 pm

Skool wrote:At the very least, law students should ask for a seat at the table when these things are being discussed. You don't have to turn it into Little Big Horn. Make a first step and get in the room.


Law students have asked for seats at the table. They've pushed for things to make quality of life better. Do you think that the march toward clinic and externships was based off of the schools just deciding they would be a good idea in tandem?

Here's another way that your argument is dumb: you point out that the ABA doesn't do much to close lower ranked law schools, but you ?seemingly? think that it's the ABA that's pushing around top schools, forcing them to make the later years of law school more practical.

Skool wrote:
ymmv wrote:"The public" isn't even close to giving a shit about the woes of law students and lawyers just fyi.

What about people who donate to law schools and universities?

There aren't tons of those, and many/most of the donors are people who went through the law cycle and like the current law school model.

There aren't REVOLUTIONARY DONORS who are MAF that law school hasn't changed.

Cogburn87
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Cogburn87 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:28 pm

SweetTort wrote:Less of a straw man and more my situation. I've currently got a 4.2+ in a useless major and my last PT was a 173, so I've been feeling good, but these threads scare me. Is it naive to think I could go to law school and be happy later in life?

If you're considering law because you can't figure out anything else you'd rather do with your life, you're almost certainly not going to be happy.

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Skool
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:33 pm

utahraptor wrote:
Skool wrote:At the very least, law students should ask for a seat at the table when these things are being discussed. You don't have to turn it into Little Big Horn. Make a first step and get in the room.


Law students have asked for seats at the table. They've pushed for things to make quality of life better. Do you think that the march toward clinic and externships was based off of the schools just deciding they would be a good idea in tandem?

Here's another way that your argument is dumb: you point out that the ABA doesn't do much to close lower ranked law schools, but you ?seemingly? think that it's the ABA that's pushing around top schools, forcing them to make the later years of law school more practical.

First off, I don't know where you get this claim that I "seemingly" think the ABA is forcing law schools to make later years more practical. I did note the NY Bar's recent offer to let people take the bar sooner in exchange for public service (making the later years more practical).

So... is the argument still dumb?

I don't know the history of externships and clinics. I do know that's a pretty mainstream idea now. Who were the students/student orgs who represented students? How was this achieved. Genuinely interested.

The question remains, where are law students now in the current discussion around 3L year, capping IBR, PSLF, and similiar issues?

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:36 pm

The most effective way to get schools to change is to discourage people from going. Now that the endless supply of naive applicants is finally drying up, schools are starting to think about making changes. That's what happens when enrollment drops by 25% in four years.

I'd be curious to hear more from the guys at Law School Transparency, who started their site while in law school.

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ymmv
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby ymmv » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:37 pm

Skool wrote:
ymmv wrote:"The public" isn't even close to giving a shit about the woes of law students and lawyers just fyi.

What about people who donate to law schools and universities?


Futile twilight years attempt to achieve immortality through names on buildings.

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Skool
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:40 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:The most effective way to get schools to change is to discourage people from going. Now that the endless supply of naive applicants is finally drying up, schools are starting to think about making changes. That's what happens when enrollment drops by 25% in four years.

I'd be curious to hear more from the guys at Law School Transparency, who started their site while in law school.
BUT, you have to be organizing yourselves to strike while they're vulnerable.

ymmv wrote:
Skool wrote:
ymmv wrote:"The public" isn't even close to giving a shit about the woes of law students and lawyers just fyi.

What about people who donate to law schools and universities?


Futile twilight years attempt to achieve immortality through names on buildings.

Well, I guess that's it. I'm wrong and you guys are right about bothering to try. I'm going to go off and look into that basket weaving phd, or kill myself or whatever.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:09 pm

White collar unionization in this country is a hopeless cause. We're not Scandinavia, we're the land of bootstraps. Unions are for blue collar bros and if you can't make it into the legal elite it's because (or so our culture says) you personally suck, which a union won't change.

I agree that eliminating demand by making clear the actual costs and likely outcomes is more effective than law students organizing in some other manner. Though it would be useful to hear from LST because those 2 things aren't necessarily incompatible.

I also agree donors aren't a route to systematic change. Sure, a donor could fund a clinic rather than an endowed chair. But that's like sticking your finger in the dyke, not rebuilding your irrigation system.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:13 pm

SweetTort wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
SweetTort wrote:OK, so I've been lurking for a while and I have to ask a question.

Everyone is saying law isn't worth it. But what's the other option? If you're someone who has a 4.0 in basket weaving from Direction State University, and you have an acceptance to HYS in one hand and a full ride to a T14 in the other, what other options do you have besides law?

No, everyone certainly does not say that. Some people may hate law so much that they categorically say don't go to law school, but that's a tiny minority. Seems like you've created a TLS strawman.



Less of a straw man and more my situation. I've currently got a 4.2+ in a useless major and my last PT was a 173, so I've been feeling good, but these threads scare me. Is it naive to think I could go to law school and be happy later in life?

Not naive at all. You should make sure you know what you're getting into. Maybe even consider a few years off before going. I'm a K-JD and generally happy with my job and life, and I wish I had taken a year or two to work and travel, maybe do Peace Corps or something.

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AreJay711
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:19 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote: But that's like sticking your finger in the (someone's gonna get banned, yo), not rebuilding your irrigation system.


lol

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:22 pm

Lol, I didn't even know that was on the list.

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bjsesq
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby bjsesq » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:26 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Lol, I didn't even know that was on the list.

I can't figure out the word and that makes me feel really dumb

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fats provolone
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:57 pm

bjsesq wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Lol, I didn't even know that was on the list.

I can't figure out the word and that makes me feel really dumb

bieber

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby ScottRiqui » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:05 pm

bjsesq wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Lol, I didn't even know that was on the list.

I can't figure out the word and that makes me feel really dumb


I'm wondering if it tripped the filter because he misspelled it. It should be "dike".

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:17 pm

Oh, no, that was me, and I totally misspelled it. Completely forgot they were 2 different words.

Clearly a sign I should have chosen a different analogy.

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ScottRiqui
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby ScottRiqui » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:19 pm

Still, it was cool to see another filter; I thought I'd seen them all at this point.

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ymmv
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby ymmv » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:20 pm

I'm such a dweeb. When I read your post my first thought was, "wait, the word 'dam' gets caught by the filter?" :lol:

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bjsesq
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby bjsesq » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:24 pm

So the moral of the story is that Nony sticks her fingers in lesbians?

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utahraptor
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby utahraptor » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:05 pm

Skool wrote:
utahraptor wrote:
Skool wrote:At the very least, law students should ask for a seat at the table when these things are being discussed. You don't have to turn it into Little Big Horn. Make a first step and get in the room.


Law students have asked for seats at the table. They've pushed for things to make quality of life better. Do you think that the march toward clinic and externships was based off of the schools just deciding they would be a good idea in tandem?

Here's another way that your argument is dumb: you point out that the ABA doesn't do much to close lower ranked law schools, but you ?seemingly? think that it's the ABA that's pushing around top schools, forcing them to make the later years of law school more practical.

First off, I don't know where you get this claim that I "seemingly" think the ABA is forcing law schools to make later years more practical. I did note the NY Bar's recent offer to let people take the bar sooner in exchange for public service (making the later years more practical).

So... is the argument still dumb?

I don't know the history of externships and clinics. I do know that's a pretty mainstream idea now. Who were the students/student orgs who represented students? How was this achieved. Genuinely interested.

The question remains, where are law students now in the current discussion around 3L year, capping IBR, PSLF, and similiar issues?


Apologies, should say the NY Bar, different entity, but still interesting to think about internal vs. external pressures.

Yes the argument is still dumb, because students have helped pushed some changes.

Why do you assume that it was "student groups" who pushed for the change? People overbooked clinics. They complained that there should be more clinics. The schools created more clinics. Or, they had forums about the state of PI law at their school (can speak to this first hand), to ensure that human rights courses continue, &c. Students generally just complain to the student government or student services. Sometimes things happen. Sometimes they don't.

But, those types of changes are pretty small compared to "let us graduate in two years." The law students right now are taking their classes and trying to graduate. They're not trying to make a hard bargain when they're in a powerless position.

Give me your example of bargaining as a law student, especially one who is presently in law school. Tell me how you expect that conversation to go, and what you'd hope to achieve by it.

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fats provolone
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:07 pm

what about terrorism?

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Skool
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:30 pm

utahraptor wrote:
Why do you assume that it was "student groups" who pushed for the change? People overbooked clinics. They complained that there should be more clinics. The schools created more clinics. Or, they had forums about the state of PI law at their school (can speak to this first hand), to ensure that human rights courses continue, &c. Students generally just complain to the student government or student services. Sometimes things happen. Sometimes they don't.


Yeah. That's not organizing and it's going to be less effective than organizing.

But, those types of changes are pretty small compared to "let us graduate in two years." The law students right now are taking their classes and trying to graduate. They're not trying to make a hard bargain when they're in a powerless position.
This is the central question: how powerless are law students really.

Give me your example of bargaining as a law student, especially one who is presently in law school. Tell me how you expect that conversation to go, and what you'd hope to achieve by it.
I think that some form of organized bargaining is an important potential tool. I don't think it's a first step.

Some baby steps:

First thing, you need some sort of student group/non-profit to be created to handle these things. IF you have that, then:

1. start and publishing articles in campus mags/journals/newspapers calling for more students to take advantage of taking the NY Bar early and working in public service
2. Make connections with EJW who are clearly thinking seriously about related issues. Ask them their thoughts on what the third year should look like
3. Talk to LST, Campos, Elie at above the law, get their thoughts. Put together a conference/talk featuring people who are interested in this issue.
4. HAVE CONVERSATIONS WITH YOUR DEANS ABOUT THEIR CONVERSATIONS WITH THE NY BAR. What do they think about the plan? Is any of the internal deliberations/emails of the NY Bar subject to a public records request? It would be super interesting to know if/when/what concerns have been expressed to the NY Bar about their plan.
5. Write and publish an OP-Ed or letter to the NY Bar letting them know how much you appreciate their proposal. Do they have a stance on whether students should be forced to pay for the spring semester of 3L?
6. Agitate for student voices in ABA committees dealing with accreditation. If I recall correctly, it's the ABA that mandates a third year.
7. Build inter school relationships with likeminded students. Chapters of this organization
8. Try and meet with Senators like Elizabeth Warren who care about this issue. Ask for her support. Ask her to appoint a point person from her office who will track the issue. Particularly as a former law professor, I think she'll really give a shit. Remember, capping forgivness is a Bi-partisan issue. Talk to her about students' points of view.
9. Develop databases of likeminded people so you can mobilize them when needed. That's really going to matter for a politician.

After all these conversations and actions, maybe an effective tactic involving some form of hard bargaining will emerge. Obviously, that's not the starting position. Who knows how things will develop? But it will take a lot of effort to get to that point.

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ashca2014
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby ashca2014 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 9:56 pm

The responses here actually provided me with some comfort and encouragement about my decision to pursue law.

Based on my research and personal experiences, I arrived at the conclusion that I wanted to practice law a long time ago.
For me, a legal career isn't about capitalizing on the American dream of status and prestige...nor is it about delusions of grandeur, or seeking an elevated social status that will compensate for my personal insecurity and shortcomings. :D




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