Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

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rondemarino
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby rondemarino » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:25 pm

chem wrote:As another engineer who is about to practice, and knows many engineers who left to practice law, I have found this group to be the most consistently happy, even in biglaw.


Haven't found this to be true at all. But I suppose it depends who people work for or what field they're in (all the ChemEs I know worked for giant companies, in contrast to the EE/CS crowd). BigLaw is way more boring than any engineering job I've ever had. But it pays way better than any engineering job. If engineering was never really your thing or if you really enjoy making 1.5-2 times what you made before, its not a bad tradeoff.

There are times I wish I stayed within the engineering and moved up into management.

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chem
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby chem » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:29 pm

rondemarino wrote:
chem wrote:As another engineer who is about to practice, and knows many engineers who left to practice law, I have found this group to be the most consistently happy, even in biglaw.


Haven't found this to be true at all. But I suppose it depends who people work for or what field they're in (all the ChemEs I know worked for giant companies, in contrast to the EE/CS crowd). BigLaw is way more boring than any engineering job I've ever had. But it pays way better than any engineering job. If engineering was never really your thing or if you really enjoy making 1.5-2 times what you made before, its not a bad tradeoff.

There are times I wish I stayed within the engineering and moved up into management.


Not saying that they don't complain about biglaw, or play the what if game. Just that they seem pretty content with things. Speaking only from a chemE perspective, the double pay, office instead of cubicle, and relative freedom to choose assignments from time to time are huge plusses.

Edit: not looking to get into a discussion about it. Just clarifying my original post.

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fats provolone
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:40 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Cogburn87 wrote:
Skool wrote: I wish those people would have the courage to leave the profession and build the lives they want for themselves.

It's certainly a lack of courage that keeps unhappy lawyers trapped in this profession. Definitely no other obvious factors at play here

Hey he said "debt and risk of professional/financial failure notwithstanding" so his argument is unassailable.

this is becoming a really common move on tls

"counterarguments aside, [stupid assertion]"

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Skool
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:08 pm

Debt, even non-dischargable debt, isn't a reason to waste your life in a profession you hate. That's the crux of what you call the "stupid assertion". Moreover, there are questions even more fundamental than debt that lead to people being trapped in a profession they hate, i.e., love of prestige, ego founded in academic achievement, love of money, etc. Law schools are experts at exploiting these weaknesses and if these weaknesses didn't exist, most people wouldn't join the profession to begin with. So alluding to debt as one of the "other obvious factors" misses the forest for the trees.

In a nutshell:

Saving 0Ls is a worthy, admirable, and needed effort for reasons discussed by others in this thread. However, the condescension that's frequently involved in the effort is a little rich when considering the dysfunctional values and lives of the advice givers. A little more time could be spent in self-reflection and redeeming yourselves.

Physicians, heal thyselves.

fats provolone wrote:this is becoming a really common move on tls

"counterarguments aside, [stupid assertion]"
Whatevs.

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fats provolone
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:24 pm

sounds like a retread of "but you're all strivers too!" yeah no shit bro. how do you think i ended up in this mess. I'm not trying to convince people that law deans are bilking them (even though they are). I'm trying to show people that even if they realize all their wildest 0L dreams and achieve objective success their lives will still be empty and worthless. i don't think the "law school is a scam, oh i got fooled and now I've got all this debt so I'm stuck!" shtick resonates with anyone. my hope is that 0Ls will say huh, i wonder why this dude who went to harvard and got a prestigious job and seems like a generally funny and likeable bro mostly just talks about suicide now. I'm sure lots of people in law think about doing something fulfilling with their lives, but I don't think the fact that they've given up on life suggests a lack of courage so much as a depletion of will caused by the job and the debt and the severe personality defects that led us here in the first place.

so I'm gonna stick with "physicians, kill thyselves"

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Skool
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 1:57 pm

fats provolone wrote:
so I'm gonna stick with "physicians, kill thyselves"
And this is the difference in values I mentioned. And this is a part of what I meant about self-reflection.

I think spending time thinking about the reasons for and opportunities that arise from healing thyself as opposed to killing yourself is productive for current law students and young attorneys.

You lot have just basically given up on yourselves and the profession! You can organize yourselves to make it better! You can throw your energies behind publicly shaming the ABA for creating these diploma mills, shaming top law schools for ceding control of the ABA's accreditation arm to TTT schools. You can work on shaming all of law schools for their preposterous tuition increases. You can join with groups like EJW in collecting data on attorneys using PSLF/IBR/PAYE and generating talking points for media when these programs come under assault.

If a newspaper wanted to come to an organization that represented the perspective of law students and young attorneys for a quote on the "law school scam" or legal education or the future of the legal industry, who could they come to? You lot could be making that organization.

There is almost no political organizing and lobbying by people who have such a tremendous stake in a system focused on fucking them over. And this is what really frustrates me about the people on this board who speak condescendingly to 0Ls.
fats provolone wrote:sounds like a retread of "but you're all strivers too!" yeah no shit bro.
No. My point isn't that you're strivers too, it's that even though you "might know a thing or two that [0Ls] don't," you're still so invested in striving, or you've let "the job and the debt and the severe personality defects that led [you] here in the first place" make you so unwilling to stand-up for yourselves and your interest. God forbid you rock the boat a little.

You'd rather kill/give up on yourselves than fight for yourselves and create a profession you can be happy in? You lot should have the courage to leave or have the courage to make the profession better. Yelling at 0Ls on the internet is easy and requires no balls. In many ways, giving up on yourselves doesn't require too much effort or risk either.

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fats provolone
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:02 pm

i think we're talking past each other. yes i am a risk averse self-hating supplicant who is willing to trade his life for a little money and empty prestige. that is why i will succeed in this profession and let's be honest probably make partner and have kids who hate me and take it out on junior associates. I'm not being condescending to 0Ls. I'm telling them to find another profession if that's not what they dream about at night

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:03 pm

I think I just had my saddest internet lol ever.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:04 pm

Skool wrote:. You lot have just basically given up on yourselves and the profession! You can organize yourselves to make it better!


Dear god in heaven...

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utahraptor
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby utahraptor » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:05 pm

where the heck is this "organize and you can lower tuition" thing coming from

it's so dumb

it's so so dumb

The problems are as follows:

(1) At a top school, tuition is high but law school probably still is, objectively, not a horrible investment. There are loads of problems with post graduate work. The debt shackle is totally annoying. But, I'd still wager that most people who go to T14 schools come out ahead on the law degree. Maybe there are ways where they'd come out even more ahead, but they kinda get what they pay for.

(2) Too many people come from wealthy backgrounds and have parental assistance.

(3) Gubmint loans.

(4) You have a situation where there are still too many applicants to make any collective effort impossible. Look at transfers—they're more than willing to give up whatever scholarship they had to climb the ladder a rung and pay full freight.

but please, let us sign up for your and ratfukr's newsletter

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby utahraptor » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:06 pm

fats provolone wrote:i think we're talking past each other. yes i am a risk averse self-hating supplicant who is willing to trade his life for a little money and empty prestige. that is why i will succeed in this profession and let's be honest probably make partner and have kids who hate me and take it out on junior associates. I'm not being condescending to 0Ls. I'm telling them to find another profession if that's not what they dream about at night

no joke, before I decided to go to law school I had conversations with attorneys and it was only when I got to the "I hate myself and love working hard on meaningless things. I am very rarely happy." part of the "why law" explanation that they were like "oh, yeah, sounds like a good idea"

DCESQ
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby DCESQ » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:12 pm

There are a lot of "bad stats" out there but a few things to keep in mind are:
1. Not all law schools are created equal. Good school=better job prospects (generally).
2. Legal markets depend on where you want to practice. Some are good (coasts) and some are bad (midwest)
3. The labor market is hard to project 4 years from now (when you would graduate). Some might retire and less graduates is a good thing for current students.

However, taking on a lot of debt (most do, especially from a T1-14) can be troublesome. I would say look at the stats where you want to practice and what you want to practice and to a Cost-Benefit Analysis based on that, not on national figures across all practice areas.

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:13 pm

utahraptor wrote:where the heck is this "organize and you can lower tuition" thing coming from

it's so dumb

it's so so dumb

Third year of law school, bruh. NY Bar has it in their cross hairs. There is an opportunity here that is being left on the table because none of you are fighting for it.


(1) At a top school, tuition is high but law school probably still is, objectively, not a horrible investment. There are loads of problems with post graduate work. The debt shackle is totally annoying. But, I'd still wager that most people who go to T14 schools come out ahead on the law degree. Maybe there are ways where they'd come out even more ahead, but they kinda get what they pay for.
There are many on these boards that disagree. You're lucky to last long enough to break even. By the time you do, you're likely to be out, rather than up. Which is a big part of why TCR is never pay sticker since what counts as a good outcome is still just breaking even.

The big missing data point that Campos has been discussing for a while are "the disappeared" attorneys. We know how folks do 9 months out. But whether it's been worth their while long term is a big question. The anecdata is not good.

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:19 pm

Not only that, but he completely sidestepped the point.

Fats' point was this: Even if a starry-eyed dreamer of a 0L knocks it out of the park, accumulates preftige, and goes on to some white shoe firm, they very likely will hate that lifestyle. It involves soul crushing hours surrounded by sociopathic partners who treat you like crap. (Not all, but very often.) How on earth do associates "band together and change" that system? Unionize? Lol at how naive this dude is.

I won't go so far as to throw the whole profession under the bus like fats. I have a midlaw job I love working with awesome people doing interesting work. (And even this was incredibly lucky. I had to jump ship from my first firm due to a lack of work.) I got lucky and "won" I suppose. I know plenty of people who "lost," and I know plenty of people who "won" even bigger than I did and hate it.

So, as I indicated in my first post ITT, I won't go so far as to say law school is wrong for everyone. But so few 0Ls have any appreciation for (1) the enormous cost, both financially and otherwise, of law school and the practice (2) the difficulty in the job market right now, and (3) what the day in, day out grind of a law firm actually involves.

It's pretty damn obnoxious being to say we don't know anything about this and are just being too "negative" when we'be fucking lived and breathed this shit for years.

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby mgschiet » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:24 pm

So if you were able to attend a T14 school, and you were certain you would have no debt after graduating, would you still go to law school?

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby utahraptor » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:27 pm

Skool wrote:
utahraptor wrote:where the heck is this "organize and you can lower tuition" thing coming from

it's so dumb

it's so so dumb

Third year of law school, bruh. NY Bar has it in their cross hairs. There is an opportunity here that is being left on the table because none of you are fighting for it.

Think for a second about the bargaining positions of the two groups here. Current law students have already agreed to go to law school, signed up for 3 years before this was an option, and are presently working on their JDs. Yes, they can do the pro bono thing, but I'm pretty sure that every school is making you pay spring tuition even if you do the Feb bar/pro bono route.

That isn't shocking.

What is a current 3L going to say? Let me graduate early and not pay tuition, or else I'll drop out? Sunk costs are way too high and you'd be giving up on your job to try to make a point. Maybe, maybe incoming students could start asking hard questions before they come about why they would pay to not do 3L, but as it stands the people who you're saying have the ability to PUSH BACK have no bargaining power. They have the most to lose and a only a relatively small amount of money to gain.

This is why your argument is dumb.
(1) At a top school, tuition is high but law school probably still is, objectively, not a horrible investment. There are loads of problems with post graduate work. The debt shackle is totally annoying. But, I'd still wager that most people who go to T14 schools come out ahead on the law degree. Maybe there are ways where they'd come out even more ahead, but they kinda get what they pay for.
There are many on these boards that disagree. You're lucky to last long enough to break even. By the time you do, you're likely to be out, rather than up. Which is a big part of why TCR is never pay sticker since what counts as a good outcome is still just breaking even.

The big missing data point that Campos has been discussing for a while are "the disappeared" attorneys. We know how folks do 9 months out. But whether it's been worth their while long term is a big question. The anecdata is not good.


The anecdotes are also often dumb. I think once you go long long term it gets surprisingly dark, but when I went through interview stuff I made an effort of tracking attorneys at the firms I got offers from, to see if they were still with the firm they started with, to see if they lateraled up or down, to see if they just disappeared, &c.

Way way more people stuck with it than TLS old wisdom would have you believe. Attrition is high, sure, but I don't think it's as high as people make it out to be. Part of that is lack of great exit options, probably, but the question for me is just "can you make back tuition and whatever else you lost in income" and the answer seems to be "yeah, but the job isn't fun and you'll hate yourself for spending a decade on something pointless."

That's what I see the most likely outcome of my long-term arc being. I work the job, get most of the way out of debt, work another job, make some marginal amount of money more than I would have otherwise, and then probably get NO BREAKFASTed and quit out. Worst case is I hate it so much that I leave before the above can happen, or get pushed out too early, though getting pushed out seems really really rare.

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby utahraptor » Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:28 pm

mgschiet wrote:So if you were able to attend a T14 school, and you were certain you would have no debt after graduating, would you still go to law school?

Do you want to be a lawyer? Why do you want to be a lawyer? Do you really understand what lawyers do?

Those should be the first questions posed to people who think about law school. IANAL, so I probably can't meaningfully answer the question you are posing.

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:01 pm

utahraptor wrote:
Skool wrote:
utahraptor wrote:where the heck is this "organize and you can lower tuition" thing coming from

it's so dumb

it's so so dumb

Third year of law school, bruh. NY Bar has it in their cross hairs. There is an opportunity here that is being left on the table because none of you are fighting for it.

Think for a second about the bargaining positions of the two groups here. Current law students have already agreed to go to law school, signed up for 3 years before this was an option, and are presently working on their JDs. Yes, they can do the pro bono thing, but I'm pretty sure that every school is making you pay spring tuition even if you do the Feb bar/pro bono route.

That isn't shocking.

What is a current 3L going to say? Let me graduate early and not pay tuition, or else I'll drop out? Sunk costs are way too high and you'd be giving up on your job to try to make a point. Maybe, maybe incoming students could start asking hard questions before they come about why they would pay to not do 3L, but as it stands the people who you're saying have the ability to PUSH BACK have no bargaining power. They have the most to lose and a only a relatively small amount of money to gain.

This is why your argument is dumb.
No shit there's limited bargaining power among 1Ls, 2Ls, and 3Ls. However, dramatizing for the public how dedicated top law schools, who are supposedly dedicated to the public good, are more interested in extracting 60k more from poor students trying to help widows and orphans could kind of give them a PR problem, which can become a fundraising problem.

That combined with allying yourselves with other stakeholders could at least bring about a reasonable reduction. Remember there are other stakeholders: The Federal Lenders who are publicly discussing capping student loans, the NY Bar who are opening this door without prompting, non-profits like EJW who could benefit from new (free) labor. There are stakeholders advocating for their interests. Where are law students?

At the very least, law students should ask for a seat at the table when these things are being discussed. You don't have to turn it into Little Big Horn. Make a first step and get in the room.

You can't win if you don't play. The only truly dumb move is sitting around saying it's hopeless and not advocating for yourself in any capacity.

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby ashca2014 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:04 pm

fats provolone wrote:sounds like a retread of "but you're all strivers too!" yeah no shit bro. how do you think i ended up in this mess. I'm not trying to convince people that law deans are bilking them (even though they are). I'm trying to show people that even if they realize all their wildest 0L dreams and achieve objective success their lives will still be empty and worthless. i don't think the "law school is a scam, oh i got fooled and now I've got all this debt so I'm stuck!" shtick resonates with anyone. my hope is that 0Ls will say huh, i wonder why this dude who went to harvard and got a prestigious job and seems like a generally funny and likeable bro mostly just talks about suicide now. I'm sure lots of people in law think about doing something fulfilling with their lives, but I don't think the fact that they've given up on life suggests a lack of courage so much as a depletion of will caused by the job and the debt and the severe personality defects that led us here in the first place.

so I'm gonna stick with "physicians, kill thyselves"


I've had depression most of my life. That doesn't really scare me.

Although I desire to live comfortably and have enough money to help my parents out when they get older, I've never had a desire to be wealthy. I've known for a long time that society's definition of success and personal fulfillment is an empty promise that is used to keep the rats of capitalism running in their wheels. I'm not seeking a prestigious job. I think people who pursue law school for the prestige, wealth, and fame are delusional...especially if they think it will bring them happiness.

Buuuut...I may be delusional in another way.

Ultimately, the only thing that has ever really made me feel fulfilled is helping other people. As cliche as it sounds, I have pretty much been a champion of the underdog my entire life. So, I'm pursuing work in the public interest sector. I feel my interests and personality make me a pretty good fit for law.
Last edited by ashca2014 on Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ymmv
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby ymmv » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:05 pm

"The public" isn't even close to giving a shit about the woes of law students and lawyers just fyi.

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby SweetTort » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:08 pm

OK, so I've been lurking for a while and I have to ask a question.

Everyone is saying law isn't worth it. But what's the other option? If you're someone who has a 4.0 in basket weaving from Direction State University, and you have an acceptance to HYS in one hand and a full ride to a T14 in the other, what other options do you have besides law?

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby fats provolone » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:09 pm

SweetTort wrote:OK, so I've been lurking for a while and I have to ask a question.

Everyone is saying law isn't worth it. But what's the other option? If you're someone who has a 4.0 in basket weaving from Direction State University, and you have an acceptance to HYS in one hand and a full ride to a T14 in the other, what other options do you have besides law?

phd in basket weaving -> basket weaving think tank -> CNN basket weaving correspondent

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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby SweetTort » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:10 pm

fats provolone wrote:
SweetTort wrote:OK, so I've been lurking for a while and I have to ask a question.

Everyone is saying law isn't worth it. But what's the other option? If you're someone who has a 4.0 in basket weaving from Direction State University, and you have an acceptance to HYS in one hand and a full ride to a T14 in the other, what other options do you have besides law?

phd in basket weaving -> basket weaving think tank -> CNN basket weaving correspondent



I know this is a joke, but isn't academia more of a crapshoot than law these days? Like, I'm honestly asking, what else can those of us with terrible majors do?

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romothesavior
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby romothesavior » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:13 pm

SweetTort wrote:OK, so I've been lurking for a while and I have to ask a question.

Everyone is saying law isn't worth it. But what's the other option? If you're someone who has a 4.0 in basket weaving from Direction State University, and you have an acceptance to HYS in one hand and a full ride to a T14 in the other, what other options do you have besides law?

No, everyone certainly does not say that. Some people may hate law so much that they categorically say don't go to law school, but that's a tiny minority. Seems like you've created a TLS strawman.

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Skool
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Re: Bombarded with People Saying "Don't do it!"

Postby Skool » Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:14 pm

romothesavior wrote:Not only that, but he completely sidestepped the point.

Fats' point was this: Even if a starry-eyed dreamer of a 0L knocks it out of the park, accumulates preftige, and goes on to some white shoe firm, they very likely will hate that lifestyle. It involves soul crushing hours surrounded by sociopathic partners who treat you like crap. (Not all, but very often.) How on earth do associates "band together and change" that system? Unionize? Lol at how naive this dude is.
Frankly, I don't know.

I haven't studied enough about unionization efforts in America or other parts of the world to know. I know there are certainly Scandanvian countries where there is white collar unionization. I don't know about it's history or its obstacles. Do you? Have you ever seriously considered looking into it? If not why not?

Reform is obviously much tricker in the professional world than it is at the law school level (which is already tricky for reasons discussed above).

If not unionization, what other strategies are there for making the profession humane? Is law in other parts of the world practiced the way it is in America? If not why not?

And you can call it naive, but the point that's relevant to this thread is that you people don't give it public study, discussion, or thought. The idea of advocating for a more humane profession never enters the discussion. It's straight to acceptance and mere survival. Which is why you all suck.

romothesavior wrote:It's pretty damn obnoxious being to say we don't know anything about this and are just being too "negative" when we'be fucking lived and breathed this shit for years.
I don't make many claims about what you "know and don't know." It's a matter of what you value and don't value (which is what likely got you all in this mess to begin with. I'm refering to fats's last post). The possibilities you foreclose and leave open.

Edit: Btws, not sure which point I sidestepped, or if that's directed at me at all.
Last edited by Skool on Fri Jan 23, 2015 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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