Is T-14 worth the debt?

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UOI4430
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Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby UOI4430 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:00 pm

What schools in the T-14 do you, my TLS friends, believe are worth attending at sticker price?

My understanding is:
YHS - Yes
GULC - No (considering the continual bashing it takes on this site)
Everything in between - ?

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universityof
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby universityof » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:06 pm

You're going to get a lot of "it depends." Everybody has different goals. Everybody has different willingness to accept risk.

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JohannDeMann
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby JohannDeMann » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:17 pm

yeah this is dumb. i dont even have to stretch my imagine to think of scenarios where YHS aren't worth sticker and georgetown is worth sticker. it all depends on the next best available option.

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sims1
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby sims1 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:28 pm

JohannDeMann wrote:yeah this is dumb. i dont even have to stretch my imagine to think of scenarios where YHS aren't worth sticker and georgetown is worth sticker. it all depends on the next best available option.


I think 40% biglaw placement can justify paying sticker. I mean people do it all the time at schools that don't even have that number; it comes down to risk tolerance, career goals, financial situation and how badly you actually want to practice law.

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Winston1984
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:29 pm

If you just want biglaw? None.

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Winston1984
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Winston1984 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:30 pm

sims1 wrote:
JohannDeMann wrote:yeah this is dumb. i dont even have to stretch my imagine to think of scenarios where YHS aren't worth sticker and georgetown is worth sticker. it all depends on the next best available option.


I think 40% biglaw placement can justify paying sticker. I mean people do it all the time at schools that don't even have that number; it comes down to risk tolerance, career goals, financial situation and how badly you actually want to practice law.

Just because people do it doesn't it make it a smart decision.

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AreJay711
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:34 pm

The central determinant is whether you like being a lawyer. That's something you can only really know after you've done it a bit. All the t-14 are an ok investment financially, but if you aren't crazy about being a lawyer (which you shouldn't be -- it's fine as far as jobs go, but not that great) then it's more murky. Also law school can be a lot of fun or hellish, depending on the group you come in with and how class / section dynamics break out (which matters, unless you're a robot people aren't robots). Finally, like JohannDeMann noted, it depends on your alternatives. You have to decide whether you think you'd like being a lawyer, what kind of environment you'd like (or whether it matters to you), and what your alternatives are, but financially none of the t14 are terrible with PAYE.

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Mack.Hambleton
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Mack.Hambleton » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:32 pm

Winston1984 wrote:If you just want biglaw? None.

kaiser
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby kaiser » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:45 pm

All depends on your goal and circumstances. If you want biglaw, you are FAR better off taking a full ride at a lower T14 vs sticker at HYS. If you want some uber prestigious government position, then sticker at H or Y may indeed be justified. There is no objective answer.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:48 pm

kaiser wrote:All depends on your goal and circumstances. If you want biglaw, you are FAR better off taking a full ride at a lower T14 vs sticker at HYS. If you want some uber prestigious government position, then sticker at H or Y may indeed be justified. There is no objective answer.


Anyone with these alternatives in front of them should be smart enough to figure out what to do.

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bjsesq
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby bjsesq » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:50 pm

Holy fucking shit, Kaffee?

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:51 pm

bjsesq wrote:Holy fucking shit, Kaffee?


*fist bump*

fuck it

*big ol bro hug*

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bjsesq
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby bjsesq » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:54 pm

Good to see you, buddy. Hope you are well.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:56 pm

bjsesq wrote:Good to see you, buddy. Hope you are well.


Same. I asked [INSERT LA-BASED FORMER TRIAL PARTNER OF YOURS] about you just the other day.

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bjsesq
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby bjsesq » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:58 pm

I tried to call her the other day, but she is busy as fuark, it seems.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:59 pm

I assume you left a voicemail. She spoke favorably about your voicemails.

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bjsesq
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby bjsesq » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:01 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:I assume you left a voicemail. She spoke favorably about your voicemails.

Always

kaiser
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby kaiser » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:02 pm

Lieut Kaffee wrote:
kaiser wrote:All depends on your goal and circumstances. If you want biglaw, you are FAR better off taking a full ride at a lower T14 vs sticker at HYS. If you want some uber prestigious government position, then sticker at H or Y may indeed be justified. There is no objective answer.


Anyone with these alternatives in front of them should be smart enough to figure out what to do.


You know as well as I do that book smarts don't always equate to practical, sensible, real-world smarts.

Nomo
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Nomo » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:04 pm

I'm going to assume you're talking about paying with debt (the numbers are a little better if you can pay in cash).

Georgetown at sticker puts you at 293k debt at repayment. The interest rates on that debt are absurd. On a 10 year repayment plan you're looking at $3,400 per month. That's approximately 40% of your take home pay as a first-year biglaw associate. Even on a 25 year plan you're paying over 2k a month.

The only way you pay off that kind of loan at that kind of interest rate is if you get into biglaw, stay for 5 or 6 years, exit into a high paying job, and stay in that job 10+ years. Borrowing that kind of money you are literally trapping yourself in a workplace, culture, and lifestyle that most people dislike. You aren't going to get out of debt until your mid 40's, and even then you're just going to be another person with a ton of debt and no assets. I don't think anyone should borrow that kind of money for Georgetown (which doesn't give you a great shot at biglaw). I don't think you should borrow it for Chicago, which does give you a good shot at biglaw - because you're still trapped. Maybe its worth it at a school with a really good LRAP plan, that's not tied to IBR/PAYE/PSLF, but even then I don't know that anyone wants that kind of debt hanging over their head. Better pray that the LRAP doesn't change or go away.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:05 pm

kaiser wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:
kaiser wrote:All depends on your goal and circumstances. If you want biglaw, you are FAR better off taking a full ride at a lower T14 vs sticker at HYS. If you want some uber prestigious government position, then sticker at H or Y may indeed be justified. There is no objective answer.


Anyone with these alternatives in front of them should be smart enough to figure out what to do.


You know as well as I do that book smarts don't always equate to practical, sensible, real-world smarts.


True.

Anyway, I highly recommend paying sticker in the lower T14 if you meet the following criteria:

1. Your most prestigious and lucrative post-UG career options are waiter and barista;
2. You have no idea what Big Law employment statistics are; and
3. You are irrationally and unjustifiably confident in your ability to outperform half of your peers, most of whom have better credentials than you do.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:07 pm

Nomo wrote:I'm going to assume you're talking about paying with debt (the numbers are a little better if you can pay in cash).

Georgetown at sticker puts you at 293k debt at repayment. The interest rates on that debt are absurd. On a 10 year repayment plan you're looking at $3,400 per month. That's approximately 40% of your take home pay as a first-year biglaw associate. Even on a 25 year plan you're paying over 2k a month.

The only way you pay off that kind of loan at that kind of interest rate is if you get into biglaw, stay for 5 or 6 years, exit into a high paying job, and stay in that job 10+ years. Borrowing that kind of money you are literally trapping yourself in a workplace, culture, and lifestyle that most people dislike. You aren't going to get out of debt until your mid 40's, and even then you're just going to be another person with a ton of debt and no assets. I don't think anyone should borrow that kind of money for Georgetown (which doesn't give you a great shot at biglaw). I don't think you should borrow it for Chicago, which does give you a good shot at biglaw - because you're still trapped. Maybe its worth it at a school with a really good LRAP plan, that's not tied to IBR/PAYE/PSLF, but even then I don't know that anyone wants that kind of debt hanging over their head. Better pray that the LRAP doesn't change or go away.


How did you arrive at the bolded figure?

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downbeat14
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby downbeat14 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:16 pm

.
Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:20 pm

downbeat14 wrote:Sticker debt is dumb, most specifically if you want big law. The only exception is HYS, and then if and only if you want to be a professor, judge, or something in government that's mega-preftige.

You really only need to look at LST numbers to understand this. Compare the total amount you would pay in debt on an X-year repayment plan, then put the same amount you would have paid per month into a mutual fund calculator and see exactly what you are giving up. Not only are you paying a shit ton of interest to the gov, you are giving up a ridiculous amount of interest that could be going into your retirement account/mortgage/investments. I know lawyers are not all the best at math, but that's really stupid.

Do you mean sticker debt is dumb if you also have the option of attending another t14 with $$$? I don't believe that is the proper interpretation of the OP. He seems to want to know which t14 are worth sticker assuming, on a case by case basis, the t14 in question (at sticker) is the highest-ranked option available and no lower t14 offered $$$.

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downbeat14
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby downbeat14 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:29 pm

.
Last edited by downbeat14 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lieut Kaffee
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Re: Is T-14 worth the debt?

Postby Lieut Kaffee » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:37 pm

downbeat14 wrote:
Lieut Kaffee wrote:Do you mean sticker debt is dumb if you also have the option of attending another t14 with $$$? I don't believe that is the proper interpretation of the OP. He seems to want to know which t14 are worth sticker assuming, on a case by case basis, the t14 in question (at sticker) is the highest-ranked option available and no lower t14 offered $$$.


No sticker debt is dumb period if you just want big law. Financially it is irrational. TCR is don't go to law school if that is your best option. Just my opinion though. There are obviously people for whom a career in law is the only thing they want. But again, I'm talking about responsible and rational decision-making based on ROI. T14 at sticker is not a good investment for the risk you are taking.

I don't think I was that unclear. Sticker is a bad idea anywhere, except maybe HYS and again only if you have really specific goals that you need that option to obtain. So my answer to OP is none of them.

Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood.




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