Which T14 school to avoid if not want competitive enviroment Forum

WilliamStrong · Post by **WilliamStrong** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:45 am

OK the Title allows way too little characters.
I want to ask which T14 school I should avoid if I don't want HIGHLY competitive environments.
I understand all law schools are competitive, as the legal market is very competitive. But since I hate really highly competitive environments and work better in cooperative environments, I want to avoid schools that are notorious for making students compete against each other for survival and want to go to schools where students are friends with each other and help each other academically.
So, is there any T14 schools to avoid and any good ones I should consider?

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:50 am

Post removed.

WilliamStrong · Post by **WilliamStrong** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:57 am

MistakenGenius wrote:I think most T14s are friendly and students are friends and work with each other. That said, virtually all schools are also super competitive. It comes with the territory. If you hate competition go to Yale.

Also, if you hate highly competitive environments, are you sure law is right for you? Hate to rain on your parade, but the legal field itself is extremely competitive.

I want to work in the legislature as either a legislative staff or legal consultant, and I particularly like there because people largely work there as a team.
Also, I know the legal field is competitive, I am just wondering which schools particularly stands out.
It is like saying, yeah there are all sorts of bad people in the world, people who steal, people who murder, and then there are people who are like Hitler, who stands out even among the worst people in the world.
What I want to know is, even among the highly competitive law schools, if there is any one that stands out like Hitler stands out in a crowd of petty thieves.

PDaddy · Post by **PDaddy** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:09 am

WilliamStrong wrote:OK the Title allows way too little characters.

This fits:

"T14's TO AVOID IF AVERSE TO ULTRA-COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENTS" (Note: don't use all caps)

MistakenGenius wrote: T14 students are high-achievers who have always been extremely successful academically and are now curved against each other for all important grades...if you hate highly competitive environments, are you sure law is right for you? Hate to rain on your parade, but the legal field itself is extremely competitive.

I agree with this! In some ways, law school MUST simulate the legal field itself. Getting through law school is about "toughness", and you will need to be tough to be a good lawyer. Don't mistake toughness or competitiveness for "aggressiveness". One can be tough but kill 'em softly.

Still, you need to have a thick skin, be willing to take calculated risks (at times), and know that you are often going to work with or against people you don't like.

Even in academia there are massive egos and politics to deal with. You are invariably going to work with people who are simply more knowledgeable, more experienced or smarter than you are, or willing to cut corners/cheat, and the only way to beat them is to out-work them! Can you handle that?

This applies whether you go into litigation, transactional law or academia, or just use your legal education to advance your business career (eg. wealth management/I-banking, real estate development, non-profits, entrepreneurship, marketing, etc.)

Competition is always part of the game for attorneys. Making matters worse, most attorneys are miserable, "type-a" people, and drug/alcohol abuse is rampant in the field. Most attorneys are not that good at what they do, and many lose their common sense after practicing for a few years. Some start cutting corners to win cases or move up the ladder. Some do things they never thought they would do when they were in law school, such as destroying/falsifying evidence, lying to judges, or scheming to get other attorneys fired so they can become partners, etc.

Know what you are getting into, because a portion of it isn't pretty. Nevertheless, law can be a beautiful, noble profession when practiced the right way!

igo2northwestern · Post by **igo2northwestern** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:13 am

Are you specifically trying to evaluate DNCG? Or HYS, CCN, and MVPB as well? If I were you, I'd try to figure out which school(s) don't have mandatory 2L and 3L curves for all classes. To my knowledge there are schools that even curve seminar classes, so I suspect that brings the sort of culture you are looking to stay away from. I'm hesitant to call out schools, since I only heard about 1 school among the T14 that is more strict about the curve.

MistakenGenius · Post by **MistakenGenius** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:27 am

Post removed.

A. Nony Mouse · Post by **A. Nony Mouse** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:33 am

Honestly I didn't find the law school atmosphere at all competitive. Everyone was really friendly and supportive of each other. There were a (very very) few people I didn't like, but it wasn't about being those people being particular competitive with others. I can't comment on any of the T14 from experience, of course, but I've always heard it's actually less competitive the higher up the food chain you go, because students at the very top schools have better employment opportunities and thus aren't fighting over the same small pile of scraps.

Now, there are going to be plenty of high achievers who have high expectations for themselves (and I'm sure this gets worse as you go up the food chain from my school). But that doesn't necessarily translate to competitiveness with other students (IME it's more likely to translate to anxiety and depression, not aggressive competitiveness).

Reading MG's post, I guess it comes down to how you define competitive - to me, that's something beyond just working hard; it's consciously trying to beat other people, rather than just do the best that you can do. (It's true that the curve works against this, of course.)

It is the case that litigation is an adversarial system, so there's inherent conflict that can be like competition. If you're doing corporate/transactional, though, I get the sense the goal is for people to come together to accomplish something (even if each side may have different interests and the need to protect those interests).

Mal Reynolds · Post by **Mal Reynolds** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:37 am

Law schools are all the same.

beepboopbeep · Post by **beepboopbeep** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:11 am

MistakenGenius wrote: -Chicago has a reputation for being more rigorous and more competitive than the others. I'm not sure how much of that is true, but maybe a current student will chime in in the morning and tell you.

Definitely not super competitive. Not any more than anywhere else probably is; I'm sure it's pretty much the same everywhere you go. This isn't undergrad where there's a lot of self-selection based on culture/etc; a lot of people are just going wherever presents the best combination of cost/ranking/employment outcomes. The culture at UofC law school is very, very different than the culture at UofC undergrad, for example. Seconding the thing about finding a group of friends being the most important thing - you'll have to interact with a lot of people just by virtue of being in the same classes, but it's so much about who you choose to surround yourself with.

WilliamStrong wrote: I want to work in the legislature as either a legislative staff or legal consultant, and I particularly like there because people largely work there as a team.

Don't go to law school.

WilliamStrong wrote: It is like saying, yeah there are all sorts of bad people in the world, people who steal, people who murder, and then there are people who are like Hitler, who stands out even among the worst people in the world.
What I want to know is, even among the highly competitive law schools, if there is any one that stands out like Hitler stands out in a crowd of petty thieves.

Also you sound like the friendly recurring troll/alt and I would not be surprised to see this one locked within the next few hours.

toothbrush · Post by **toothbrush** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:17 am

Cornell is pretty competitive. We take graded LR and 4 substantive courses each 1L semester. Then 2L/3L classes are curved. Not enough journals for everyone.

I felt like people here were competitive. Shit got shady towards finals.

I'd be surprised if anyone can give you a good answer because very few people attend 2L t14's for law school let alone during 1L, the most important year.

Mal Reynolds · Post by **Mal Reynolds** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:34 am

toothbrush wrote:Cornell is pretty competitive. We take graded LR and 4 substantive courses each 1L semester. Then 2L/3L classes are curved. Not enough journals for everyone.

I felt like people here were competitive. Shit got shady towards finals.

I'd be surprised if anyone can give you a good answer because very few people attend 2L t14's for law school let alone during 1L, the most important year.

I don't see how your classes make a school competitive. We also had graded lrw. The rest is really vague. What got shady? Like people not sharing outlines?

Total Litigator · Post by **Total Litigator** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:38 am

PDaddy wrote:
WilliamStrong wrote:OK the Title allows way too little characters.
This fits:

"T14's TO AVOID IF AVERSE TO ULTRA-COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENTS" (Note: don't use all caps)

Actually, I'm going to say OP's headline is better, because it looks like an entertaining flame thread and therefore probably would get more hits.

mr_toad · Post by **mr_toad** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:46 am

Just graduated from Georgetown, and I had the impression that it was not competitive at all. People (at least in my section) generally freely shared notes with others who missed class and even entire outlines upon request. There was one study group in my section that apparently wouldn't even share outlines with each other, but overall it felt more like you were in competition with yourself, not with anyone else. The notion that people here are fighting for a small number of jobs, as someone noted above, just isn't true any more (maybe 2-3 years ago, but my class had [relatively] excellent job outcomes through the EIW/OCI process). This isn't to say that some percentage will come out jobless, and that nominally this number is (often much) higher than some other schools due to our size, but I haven't seen evidence to suggest that this has led to any kind of cutthroat behavior. The aforementioned study group was comprised of people fighting to be in the top 10% in order to have a fighting chance to work in DC at elite or boutique firms, not people desperate for grades that would give them a fighting chance at any kind of job. I have heard less salutary tales of some other schools, but I don't want to trash them based on rumors or one person's anecdotes (obviously, this is just my anecdote regarding Georgetown, so YMMV).

Mal Reynolds · Post by **Mal Reynolds** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:50 am

So you're saying generally people weren't competitive and nice. But some weren't as helpful? Sounds like every t14 I've heard of.

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:57 am

I went to a lower T2 1L and actually had someone not let me look at a piece of paper I forgot to print for a review class. I just wanted to read it real quick, it was one page, but he wouldn't let me see it. It was crazy. Never had someone flat out say, "No. I am not letting you look at this" and it not just be a brief troll.

Unrelated to OP:

That kid got a B in the class, finished 1L below median, and couldn’t even secure a legal related summer position.

Hypothesis: The true, awful competitiveness such as the above incident probably doesn’t occur at a T14, where even kids with median can secure a job.

ymmv · Post by **ymmv** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:58 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:So you're saying generally people weren't competitive and nice. But some weren't as helpful? Sounds like every t14 I've heard of.

bjsesq · Post by **bjsesq** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:59 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:Law schools are all the same.

That's not true. Dude, I've seen the shit coming from your listserv.

Nebby · Post by **Nebby** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:00 am

bjsesq wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:Law schools are all the same.
That's not true. Dude, I've seen the shit coming from your listserv.

If you want happy and helpful people, who also like to take food from the homeless, go to UChi!

mr_toad · Post by **mr_toad** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:00 am

MistakenGenius wrote:
WilliamStrong wrote:
MistakenGenius wrote:
-I have heard that Georgetown is probably the absolute most competitive. This is because it's one of the worst of the schools employment-wise so graduates have to scramble for a limited number of jobs.

@malreynolds ("So you're saying generally people weren't competitive and nice. But some weren't as helpful? Sounds like every t14 I've heard of."

Was a direct response to the above, often-repeated (on TLS) innuendo. But yes, you're right, it does sound like most t14s.

Mal Reynolds · Post by **Mal Reynolds** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:02 am

I admit there are some very special people that go to my school. But that doesn't really go towards the question of competitiveness.

Mal Reynolds · Post by **Mal Reynolds** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:03 am

mr_toad wrote:
MistakenGenius wrote:
WilliamStrong wrote:
MistakenGenius wrote:
-I have heard that Georgetown is probably the absolute most competitive. This is because it's one of the worst of the schools employment-wise so graduates have to scramble for a limited number of jobs.

@malreynolds ("So you're saying generally people weren't competitive and nice. But some weren't as helpful? Sounds like every t14 I've heard of."

Was a direct response to the above, often-repeated (on TLS) innuendo. But yes, you're right, it does sound like most t14s.

Yeah I wasn't really disagreeing with you. Just that the paragraph you wrote could describe any or all of the top 14.

bananasplit19 · Post by **bananasplit19** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:04 am

An oldie but goodie:

http://abovethelaw.com/2009/12/study-gr ... ranscript/

bjsesq · Post by **bjsesq** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:04 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:I admit there are some very special people that go to my school. But that doesn't really go towards the question of competitiveness.

True. They are all competitive, and the difference is at the margins. U of C has some AMAZING margins, though.

DELG · Post by **DELG** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:10 am

Mal Reynolds wrote:I admit there are some very special people that go to my school. But that doesn't really go towards the question of competitiveness.

We all have a few special folks, too.

Mal Reynolds · Post by **Mal Reynolds** » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:13 am

bjsesq wrote:
Mal Reynolds wrote:I admit there are some very special people that go to my school. But that doesn't really go towards the question of competitiveness.
True. They are all competitive, and the difference is at the margins. U of C has some AMAZING margins, though.

Lol yeah. I think at any t14 you're going to feel wholly inadequate and like you're an idiot at some point in the year. It's just the nature of law students in general not having any social grace and the adverse selection problem of law school classes-meaning people only raise their hands when they know an answer but that makes you feel like the whole class knows what the hell is going on and you are the only one not getting it. People try really really hard but the ridiculous thing is that it has no correlation to success. The people I know who killed it were resoundingly not the ones lining up in front of the professor during a break to ask more questions. But seeing those people asp out can really fuck with your head. It took a while for me to get over that shit.