Biglaw outside of NYC

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guano
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby guano » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:08 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
guano wrote:
wiz wrote:NYC is generally less selective than wtv your home market is because other markets don't have nearly as many jobs (like Atlanta).

Other markets don't have anywhere near as many applicants, so your statement is weird.
If 5 people are applying for the 1 biglaw job in Bumblefuck, Iowa, that doesn't mean it's more selective than if 10,000 people are applying for 1,000 jobs in NYC

You're assuming incorrectly that NYC has disproportionately more applicants. This often isn't the case. NYC has about 2,000 biglaw SA's.

and I'm gonna guess that there are probably about eight thousand applicants

(15 law schools in the area, a large contingent of the roughly 4000 students at the rest of the T14 students, let's say another 2000, plus probably a good 2,000 from various other schools, though to be fair I'm just guessing)
But yeah, there are probably more jobs per applicant in NY than most other markets

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patogordo
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby patogordo » Tue Mar 04, 2014 11:10 am

nyc doesn't seem to prefer local students as much as smaller markets do. that cuts out a lot of the available spots in secondary markets that will draw heavily from the top 5% of local TTTs or whatever.

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jselson
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby jselson » Wed Mar 05, 2014 9:24 pm

drawstring wrote:
OutCold wrote:The fact of the matter is that it is incredibly risky to bid on any market other than NYC at OCI if you have debt that can only be serviced by a biglaw salary.


Is this true of LA as well? Assuming medianish grades at HYS, how realistic is landing big law in LA?


Wondering if anyone can speak more to this? At H around median, I have strong LA/OC ties (did undergrad and grad school there), and have a 1L summer gov't internship there.

Also, I was surprised at the Newport Beach median salary. O'Melveny has an office there I'm thinking of bidding in addition to the other ones in LA and Century City cos I love Newport, but 90k seems really low, esp. for that area. I wonder if that's their salary, or if there's just a lot of midlaw branches there. Same with Irvine's lower salary. Jones Day has an office there, I think. Yet Costa Mesa is near the top.

Anecdotally, I know someone with Boston ties who had only 1 H and bid exclusively Boston and got a V10 branch office. I've heard from others that for secondaries you really want, focus exclusively there. For HYS, does that seem like the best strategy, barring particularly low grades (0-1 H's)?

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almondjoy
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby almondjoy » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:59 pm

jselson wrote:
drawstring wrote:
OutCold wrote:The fact of the matter is that it is incredibly risky to bid on any market other than NYC at OCI if you have debt that can only be serviced by a biglaw salary.


Is this true of LA as well? Assuming medianish grades at HYS, how realistic is landing big law in LA?


Wondering if anyone can speak more to this? At H around median, I have strong LA/OC ties (did undergrad and grad school there), and have a 1L summer gov't internship there.

Also interested in this

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drawstring
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby drawstring » Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:40 pm

bump for more on LA.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Rahviveh » Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:12 pm

jselson wrote:
drawstring wrote:
OutCold wrote:The fact of the matter is that it is incredibly risky to bid on any market other than NYC at OCI if you have debt that can only be serviced by a biglaw salary.


Is this true of LA as well? Assuming medianish grades at HYS, how realistic is landing big law in LA?


Wondering if anyone can speak more to this? At H around median, I have strong LA/OC ties (did undergrad and grad school there), and have a 1L summer gov't internship there.

Also, I was surprised at the Newport Beach median salary. O'Melveny has an office there I'm thinking of bidding in addition to the other ones in LA and Century City cos I love Newport, but 90k seems really low, esp. for that area. I wonder if that's their salary, or if there's just a lot of midlaw branches there. Same with Irvine's lower salary. Jones Day has an office there, I think. Yet Costa Mesa is near the top.

Anecdotally, I know someone with Boston ties who had only 1 H and bid exclusively Boston and got a V10 branch office. I've heard from others that for secondaries you really want, focus exclusively there. For HYS, does that seem like the best strategy, barring particularly low grades (0-1 H's)?


All OC biglaw firms pay market.

As far as LA/OC, I'm a 1L and haven't been through OCI yet so take this with a grain of salt. But at Chi it looks like the "cutoffs" for SoCal firms are around median or slightly below, with the exception of places like Irell and Munger. But I'm sure they take the lionshare of recruits who are in the top 1/3.

OC firms care a ton about ties. Even if you're from there they want to make sure that you actually want to return. I also think they are looking for a certain type of personality - people who aren't partiers, more low-key, with families, etc,. Most young singles don't want to end up in OC.

You can PM me if you wanna know more.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby jbagelboy » Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:46 pm

Rahviveh wrote:
jselson wrote:
drawstring wrote:
OutCold wrote:The fact of the matter is that it is incredibly risky to bid on any market other than NYC at OCI if you have debt that can only be serviced by a biglaw salary.


Is this true of LA as well? Assuming medianish grades at HYS, how realistic is landing big law in LA?


Wondering if anyone can speak more to this? At H around median, I have strong LA/OC ties (did undergrad and grad school there), and have a 1L summer gov't internship there.

Also, I was surprised at the Newport Beach median salary. O'Melveny has an office there I'm thinking of bidding in addition to the other ones in LA and Century City cos I love Newport, but 90k seems really low, esp. for that area. I wonder if that's their salary, or if there's just a lot of midlaw branches there. Same with Irvine's lower salary. Jones Day has an office there, I think. Yet Costa Mesa is near the top.

Anecdotally, I know someone with Boston ties who had only 1 H and bid exclusively Boston and got a V10 branch office. I've heard from others that for secondaries you really want, focus exclusively there. For HYS, does that seem like the best strategy, barring particularly low grades (0-1 H's)?


All OC biglaw firms pay market.

As far as LA/OC, I'm a 1L and haven't been through OCI yet so take this with a grain of salt. But at Chi it looks like the "cutoffs" for SoCal firms are around median or slightly below, with the exception of places like Irell and Munger. But I'm sure they take the lionshare of recruits who are in the top 1/3.

OC firms care a ton about ties. Even if you're from there they want to make sure that you actually want to return. I also think they are looking for a certain type of personality - people who aren't partiers, more low-key, with families, etc,. Most young singles don't want to end up in OC.

You can PM me if you wanna know more.


Also grew up in OC and worked there after college. I'll be SA'ing there this summer. I'm very surprised to hear about a firm paying below market, everywhere I looked was NY-market.

I'll second on ties. Being a local boy with a desire to return is important, although the attorneys I met with seemed very flexible about LA/OC navigation.

jselson, you wouldn't happen to be working at the AG's office in LA would you?

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jselson
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby jselson » Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:20 pm

jbagelboy wrote:
Rahviveh wrote:
jselson wrote:
drawstring wrote:Is this true of LA as well? Assuming medianish grades at HYS, how realistic is landing big law in LA?


Wondering if anyone can speak more to this? At H around median, I have strong LA/OC ties (did undergrad and grad school there), and have a 1L summer gov't internship there.

Also, I was surprised at the Newport Beach median salary. O'Melveny has an office there I'm thinking of bidding in addition to the other ones in LA and Century City cos I love Newport, but 90k seems really low, esp. for that area. I wonder if that's their salary, or if there's just a lot of midlaw branches there. Same with Irvine's lower salary. Jones Day has an office there, I think. Yet Costa Mesa is near the top.

Anecdotally, I know someone with Boston ties who had only 1 H and bid exclusively Boston and got a V10 branch office. I've heard from others that for secondaries you really want, focus exclusively there. For HYS, does that seem like the best strategy, barring particularly low grades (0-1 H's)?


All OC biglaw firms pay market.

As far as LA/OC, I'm a 1L and haven't been through OCI yet so take this with a grain of salt. But at Chi it looks like the "cutoffs" for SoCal firms are around median or slightly below, with the exception of places like Irell and Munger. But I'm sure they take the lionshare of recruits who are in the top 1/3.

OC firms care a ton about ties. Even if you're from there they want to make sure that you actually want to return. I also think they are looking for a certain type of personality - people who aren't partiers, more low-key, with families, etc,. Most young singles don't want to end up in OC.

You can PM me if you wanna know more.


Also grew up in OC and worked there after college. I'll be SA'ing there this summer. I'm very surprised to hear about a firm paying below market, everywhere I looked was NY-market.

I'll second on ties. Being a local boy with a desire to return is important, although the attorneys I met with seemed very flexible about LA/OC navigation.

jselson, you wouldn't happen to be working at the AG's office in LA would you?


Nope, but I'll be right up the street at the USAO :)

And thanks both of you for the great info.

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drawstring
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby drawstring » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:16 pm

hmm...so LA is fairly tough to crack for someone without ties (I'm from the west coast of Canada if that means anything :lol: )? I'd much rather work there than anywhere else, but I guess that's not very convincing.

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SplitMyPants
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby SplitMyPants » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:04 pm

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Last edited by SplitMyPants on Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

drevo
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby drevo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:48 pm

Anyone have any experience with San Diego BigLaw? I know it's very small especially compared to LA. I also have heard that it's very IP focused which makes a ton of sense because, outside of tourism and the military, biotech is the main industry here in San Diego.

I fully understand that NYC is the most probable place I will end up with BigLaw but what about getting back to SD from OCI, say from CCN? Or, eventually lateraling into San Diego given you have ties (which I do)?

It's a small market and I'm sure they get plenty of people who want to come live in San Diego because, well, it's San Diego and it is the perfect city. But I assume that also makes it quite a bit more difficult to get even if you have obvious ties.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:06 pm

drevo wrote:Anyone have any experience with San Diego BigLaw? I know it's very small especially compared to LA. I also have heard that it's very IP focused which makes a ton of sense because, outside of tourism and the military, biotech is the main industry here in San Diego.

I fully understand that NYC is the most probable place I will end up with BigLaw but what about getting back to SD from OCI, say from CCN? Or, eventually lateraling into San Diego given you have ties (which I do)?

It's a small market and I'm sure they get plenty of people who want to come live in San Diego because, well, it's San Diego and it is the perfect city. But I assume that also makes it quite a bit more difficult to get even if you have obvious ties.

There are about 20 legitimate SA spots, several of which go to IP types. It's just a very small market and there are thousands of students graduating from SD/OC/LA schools every year. I'm happy to discuss more via PM.

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patogordo
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby patogordo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:11 pm

i interviewed w/ several SD firms and basically got nothing. i think no ties was the killer (in combination w/ very small # of SAs period). and i was IP and had o/w strong credentials.

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jbagelboy
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby jbagelboy » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:30 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
drevo wrote:Anyone have any experience with San Diego BigLaw? I know it's very small especially compared to LA. I also have heard that it's very IP focused which makes a ton of sense because, outside of tourism and the military, biotech is the main industry here in San Diego.

I fully understand that NYC is the most probable place I will end up with BigLaw but what about getting back to SD from OCI, say from CCN? Or, eventually lateraling into San Diego given you have ties (which I do)?

It's a small market and I'm sure they get plenty of people who want to come live in San Diego because, well, it's San Diego and it is the perfect city. But I assume that also makes it quite a bit more difficult to get even if you have obvious ties.

There are about 20 legitimate SA spots, several of which go to IP types. It's just a very small market and there are thousands of students graduating from SD/OC/LA schools every year. I'm happy to discuss more via PM.


I saw we have a 3L headed to Paul Hasting's SD office.. one of the few firms that I know actually has an office down there.

drevo
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby drevo » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:04 pm

jbagelboy wrote:I saw we have a 3L headed to Paul Hasting's SD office.. one of the few firms that I know actually has an office down there.


I actually got to talk to two Paul Hastings associates a year or so back because they came and spoke to a club at my UG. It was nice hearing that they did corporate, non-IP work. Paul Hasting's office is right in La Jolla which is an extremely nice and affluent area of San Diego. Would be an incredible place to work location wise. But, just as you guys have confirmed, I assumed those spots are extremely limited with many of the SoCal law grads fighting for them (not to mention T-14).

Tiago Splitter wrote:There are about 20 legitimate SA spots, several of which go to IP types. It's just a very small market and there are thousands of students graduating from SD/OC/LA schools every year. I'm happy to discuss more via PM.


Exactly what I figured. And I'll definitely PM you. Thanks!

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Rahviveh
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Rahviveh » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:28 pm

Do SD firms mainly look at SD natives/ties or are general SoCal ties enough to make you competitive?

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iamgeorgebush
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby iamgeorgebush » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:05 am

drawstring wrote:hmm...so LA is fairly tough to crack for someone without ties (I'm from the west coast of Canada if that means anything :lol: )? I'd much rather work there than anywhere else, but I guess that's not very convincing.

if my RC served me correctly, they were talking about OC on this pg, not LA.

i would also be curious to hear more opinions on how important ties are in LA (and by LA, i mean within the borders of the city of los angeles, not southern california generally)

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jbagelboy
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby jbagelboy » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:46 am

iamgeorgebush wrote:
drawstring wrote:hmm...so LA is fairly tough to crack for someone without ties (I'm from the west coast of Canada if that means anything :lol: )? I'd much rather work there than anywhere else, but I guess that's not very convincing.

if my RC served me correctly, they were talking about OC on this pg, not LA.

i would also be curious to hear more opinions on how important ties are in LA (and by LA, i mean within the borders of the city of los angeles, not southern california generally)


I've gathered Orange County specifically is more ties-conscious than Los Angeles. It makes sense (to some) why young attorneys would want to live in a huge, diverse metropolis.. conversely, the firms with smaller offices in the coastal towns (Irvine & Newport predominantly) may wonder why someone in their mid-20's would want to work there with no prior connections to the area. It's not particularly exciting on it's face (I mean, I love newport, but it's definitely an older crowd).

Still, people diverge on LA. I'd say generally, it's easier than SF (larger market), but requires a little more commitment/explanation than NYC (or DC - even if DC is more grades conscious).

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patogordo
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby patogordo » Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:05 am

all my LA interviewers asked "why LA?" tbf this could be because i have zero west coast ties so they were legitimately curious. so i think they care a little bit but it didn't seem like a huge deal. i only interviewed at two NYC firms and neither one seemed to give a shit about why i wanted to be in NYC.

bizzike
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby bizzike » Fri May 30, 2014 3:27 am

Regarding the Houston vs. NYC/Chicago/LA rankings: in Texas, in addition to a lower CoL, there is no city or state income tax :mrgreen: . So, on top of cheaper rent, utilities, etc. you're looking at keeping another 12-15% of your income that you'd be paying to the state (numbers aren't cited, just ballpark estimates). I believe taxes on bonuses and capital gains are lower as well (again too lazy to cite).

May not seem like much, but 10-15k will help loans disappear that much faster. Then again, you have to live in the suburban purgatories of Houston (I'm a native) or Dallas. So there's that.

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Balthy
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Balthy » Fri May 30, 2014 4:05 am

Does anyone know about lateraling to secondary markets like LA/SF from NYC without good ties? Is it just as hard as through OCI?

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DELG
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby DELG » Fri May 30, 2014 9:23 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:For this summer I was choosing between NYC big law and regional big law. In my region, the job would pay approximately $110k and that is worth more here than $160k in NYC. However, the exit options are much better from a big firm in NYC than big law here. So that's what I'm doing. Plus, NYC is awesome.

Something I didn't realize before last summer is that regional big law is really different from NYC big law. In my region, huge firms have offices with 10-40 attorneys in many cases, and the work can be very interesting--and there can be big clients--but a lot of the clients are much smaller.

This line of reasoning is so misguided I am starting a new thread




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