Biglaw outside of NYC

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:06 pm

twenty 8 wrote:Not much on stats for this sort of thing but if (what I heard is true) 20,000 new attorneys enter the legal workforce yearly.... then (from what you indicated) 30% go to BL, 10% to firms with more than 26 attorneys, and 60% off to firms with under 25 attorneys. To my thinking, 40% are starting their careers in pretty good shape (assuming bigger firms pay more).

Yeah once you ignore the 20-25000 grads who are either unemployed or working in non-legal positions things look just mediocre.

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twenty 8
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby twenty 8 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:58 am

Are you saying forty thousand enter law school every year? I thought the number was thirty tops. Maybe less, I read where applications have recently been down.

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hellojd
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby hellojd » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:07 pm

FWIW, I'm at CN and will be doing a 1L SA at a V50 in a secondary market this summer which (annualized) pays more than $120k. In my opinion, the salary definitely goes further than 160k in NYC. I'd also dispute those who are saying transactional work is not to be found outside of NYC. Is there less of a chance you'll be working on >$1Billion deals that will plaster the front of the WSJ? Sure. Does that mean there's no significant transactional work? No. There's plenty of it to go around from what I was able to discern through the callback process I went through. There wouldn't be multiple V100s in this secondary market with many partners in transactional work if there wasn't.

That being said, NYC is an awesome city. It's tough to imagine leaving, and there is something to be said for being at the epicenter of it all.

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Kikero
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Kikero » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:42 pm

twenty 8 wrote:Are you saying forty thousand enter law school every year? I thought the number was thirty tops. Maybe less, I read where applications have recently been down.


The 202 ABA-approved J.D. programs reported that 39,675 full-time and part-time students began their law school studies in the fall of 2013.


http://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews ... legal.html

ETA: That's also not counting LLMs, some of which are looking for the same sort of jobs.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:28 pm

Kikero wrote:
twenty 8 wrote:Are you saying forty thousand enter law school every year? I thought the number was thirty tops. Maybe less, I read where applications have recently been down.


The 202 ABA-approved J.D. programs reported that 39,675 full-time and part-time students began their law school studies in the fall of 2013.


http://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews ... legal.html

ETA: That's also not counting LLMs, some of which are looking for the same sort of jobs.

The peak was 52488 1L's in fall of 2010.

hellojd wrote:FWIW, I'm at CN and will be doing a 1L SA at a V50 in a secondary market this summer which (annualized) pays more than $120k. In my opinion, the salary definitely goes further than 160k in NYC. I'd also dispute those who are saying transactional work is not to be found outside of NYC. Is there less of a chance you'll be working on >$1Billion deals that will plaster the front of the WSJ? Sure. Does that mean there's no significant transactional work? No. There's plenty of it to go around from what I was able to discern through the callback process I went through. There wouldn't be multiple V100s in this secondary market with many partners in transactional work if there wasn't.

Don't know why you're so fired up. No one disagrees with this. I would add though that the size of deals isn't the only appealing thing about NYC transactional work. "Transactional" is far from just one thing. You aren't going to get a lot of securitization work in Phoenix, or be able to specialize in fund formation work in Omaha, for example. If you're still interested in a broad variety of transactional practices 12 months after beginning law school like most of us, then NYC offers the best chance to explore them.

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guano
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby guano » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:46 pm

arklaw13 wrote:Texas is TCR. New York pay with a third-world cost of living.

NJ is TCR - New York cost with a third-world standard of living

Florence Night
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Florence Night » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:53 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote: If you're still interested in a broad variety of transactional practices 12 months after beginning law school like most of us, then NYC offers the best chance to explore them.


Yep. And no one can argue otherwise or criticize anyone for choosing that path for that reason or a number of others. But with with that opportunity for exploration comes ungodly hours, a lower salary in real dollars, smaller living quarters, (probably) a lower chance of making partner at your firm, etc. There are so many variables that no one should criticize anyone for going to any market.

Edit:

..Which I think is what you're saying too. I'm not arguing with you, just saying that no one is right.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:06 pm

Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. You make sacrifices going either way.

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby wiz » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:36 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Kikero wrote:
twenty 8 wrote:Are you saying forty thousand enter law school every year? I thought the number was thirty tops. Maybe less, I read where applications have recently been down.


The 202 ABA-approved J.D. programs reported that 39,675 full-time and part-time students began their law school studies in the fall of 2013.


http://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews ... legal.html

ETA: That's also not counting LLMs, some of which are looking for the same sort of jobs.

The peak was 52488 1L's in fall of 2010.

hellojd wrote:FWIW, I'm at CN and will be doing a 1L SA at a V50 in a secondary market this summer which (annualized) pays more than $120k. In my opinion, the salary definitely goes further than 160k in NYC. I'd also dispute those who are saying transactional work is not to be found outside of NYC. Is there less of a chance you'll be working on >$1Billion deals that will plaster the front of the WSJ? Sure. Does that mean there's no significant transactional work? No. There's plenty of it to go around from what I was able to discern through the callback process I went through. There wouldn't be multiple V100s in this secondary market with many partners in transactional work if there wasn't.

Don't know why you're so fired up. No one disagrees with this. I would add though that the size of deals isn't the only appealing thing about NYC transactional work. "Transactional" is far from just one thing. You aren't going to get a lot of securitization work in Phoenix, or be able to specialize in fund formation work in Omaha, for example. If you're still interested in a broad variety of transactional practices 12 months after beginning law school like most of us, then NYC offers the best chance to explore them.

I think this is spot on. I'm assuming he was fired up because of the whole "You really need to be in NYC, LA, or CHI for transactional work." I guess that could rub you the wrong way if you weren't gonna be in one of those cities and were planning on doing transactional work, but as you said, NYC really does give you the best chance to explore a broad range of transactional practices.

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hellojd
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby hellojd » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:55 pm

wiz wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
Kikero wrote:
twenty 8 wrote:Are you saying forty thousand enter law school every year? I thought the number was thirty tops. Maybe less, I read where applications have recently been down.


The 202 ABA-approved J.D. programs reported that 39,675 full-time and part-time students began their law school studies in the fall of 2013.


http://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews ... legal.html

ETA: That's also not counting LLMs, some of which are looking for the same sort of jobs.

The peak was 52488 1L's in fall of 2010.

hellojd wrote:FWIW, I'm at CN and will be doing a 1L SA at a V50 in a secondary market this summer which (annualized) pays more than $120k. In my opinion, the salary definitely goes further than 160k in NYC. I'd also dispute those who are saying transactional work is not to be found outside of NYC. Is there less of a chance you'll be working on >$1Billion deals that will plaster the front of the WSJ? Sure. Does that mean there's no significant transactional work? No. There's plenty of it to go around from what I was able to discern through the callback process I went through. There wouldn't be multiple V100s in this secondary market with many partners in transactional work if there wasn't.

Don't know why you're so fired up. No one disagrees with this. I would add though that the size of deals isn't the only appealing thing about NYC transactional work. "Transactional" is far from just one thing. You aren't going to get a lot of securitization work in Phoenix, or be able to specialize in fund formation work in Omaha, for example. If you're still interested in a broad variety of transactional practices 12 months after beginning law school like most of us, then NYC offers the best chance to explore them.

I think this is spot on. I'm assuming he was fired up because of the whole "You really need to be in NYC, LA, or CHI for transactional work." I guess that could rub you the wrong way if you weren't gonna be in one of those cities and were planning on doing transactional work, but as you said, NYC really does give you the best chance to explore a broad range of transactional practices.


Yeah, that clarification is accurate. The quote of me cuts out my last paragraph which said something to the effect of "NYC is awesome and I find it hard to imagine leaving".

For full disclosure, although my 1L SA is in a secondary market, I fully expect to do 2L and post-LS in NYC. I wanted to dispel the illusion for the OP however that you can't do significant, quality transactional work in a secondary city. I don't at all disagree that the breadth and depth of transactional work in NYC is probably better and deeper, all other things being equal. As others have mentioned however, you do need to weigh the fact that NYC is much more likely to chew you up in a couple of years than a secondary market.

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twenty 8
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby twenty 8 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:23 am

Perhaps this sounds naïve but I thought one of the coolest things about being an attorney was that you could work wherever you wanted. In my case it was my home town (which worked out). I suppose I am somewhat fortunate not to have been seduced by megatropolis big law... if what I read about their crazy hours is true.

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sublime
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby sublime » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:42 am

..

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twenty 8
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby twenty 8 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:19 am

From their 2010 chart, I find several stats difficult to accept… Jackson Mississippi’s median income being higher than Memphis, Nashville, Orlando, etc. What’s up with that?

As I noted earlier, the big difference of what it costs from one place to another usually involves housing.

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sublime
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby sublime » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:29 am

..

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mephistopheles
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby mephistopheles » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:04 pm

wait, there's big law outside of NYC?

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby wiz » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:51 pm

sublime wrote:How accurate is that NALP buying power chart?

I knew there was a difference, but (for example) StL's buying power starting at like $300,000 NYC dollars seems a bit over the top.


I'm obvi skeptical that 160k in Houston = 340k in NYC, but I think the chart is useful for comparative rankings (how the COL of cities rank in relation to one another, even if the final figures seem a little off) and for illustrating that it's really expensive to live in NYC (which everyone already knows).

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twenty
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby twenty » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:26 pm

I don't buy that NYC is far and away the single most expensive place to live in the history of ever. Furthermore, it seems as if NALP is lumping together certain metros (i.e, SF and Mountain View) whereas SF is significantly more expensive than NYC, but Mountain View is probably quite a bit lower. A couple other numbers jump out at me as being obviously wrong. Brooklyn is 126k? Lol.

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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Kikero » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:40 pm

wiz wrote:
sublime wrote:How accurate is that NALP buying power chart?

I knew there was a difference, but (for example) StL's buying power starting at like $300,000 NYC dollars seems a bit over the top.


I'm obvi skeptical that 160k in Houston = 340k in NYC, but I think the chart is useful for comparative rankings (how the COL of cities rank in relation to one another, even if the final figures seem a little off) and for illustrating that it's really expensive to live in NYC (which everyone already knows).


It can't be perfect since costs for different products change at varying rates. A house in NY probably costs 10x (at least) as much as in Detroit, but you can't buy milk for 1/10 of the NY price anywhere.

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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:52 pm

Kikero wrote:It can't be perfect since costs for different products change at varying rates. A house in NY probably costs 10x (at least) as much as in Detroit, but you can't buy milk for 1/10 of the NY price anywhere.


Housing cost differentials are what really matter. Housing is a fixed expense that you have to pay. Other than utilities the rest of your costs can be adjusted by choice. When you have $2K in loans due every month, you REALLY care about whether your fixed monthly housing costs are $900 vs. $2600. That's going to make a massive difference in your day to day quality of life.

Also people in here are really exaggerating how easy NYC biglaw is to get. Frankly, just bidding all NYC from a top 14 because you have median or below grades isn't some guaranteed safe strategy. Believe it or not a lot of people bid on big NYC firms. This is especially true if you don't go to one of the 2 top 14 schools in NYC. Frankly, from what I've seen, your chances at getting NYC vs. your home market (assuming it has biglaw firms) is going to depend more on the selectivity of your home market. And even if NYC is less selective than your home market, you still don't have a great chance at the big NYC firms when you are below median.


To the OP. Atlanta is amazing if you land a biglaw job. But if you don't go to one of Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, AND have ties to the South your chances at landing a big firm job are hilariously bad. If you get UVA, Duke, or Vandy your chances will be bad unless you get into the top 15 percent or so.

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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:08 pm

BruceWayne wrote: But if you don't go to one of Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, AND have ties to the South your chances at landing a big firm job are hilariously bad. If you get UVA, Duke, or Vandy your chances will be bad unless you get into the top 15 percent or so.


Wow, didn't know that ATL was that hard to crack.

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wiz
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby wiz » Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:14 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
Kikero wrote:It can't be perfect since costs for different products change at varying rates. A house in NY probably costs 10x (at least) as much as in Detroit, but you can't buy milk for 1/10 of the NY price anywhere.


Housing cost differentials are what really matter. Housing is a fixed expense that you have to pay. Other than utilities the rest of your costs can be adjusted by choice. When you have $2K in loans due every month, you REALLY care about whether your fixed monthly housing costs are $900 vs. $2600. That's going to make a massive difference in your day to day quality of life.

Also people in here are really exaggerating how easy NYC biglaw is to get. Frankly, just bidding all NYC from a top 14 because you have median or below grades isn't some guaranteed safe strategy. Believe it or not a lot of people bid on big NYC firms. This is especially true if you don't go to one of the 2 top 14 schools in NYC. Frankly, from what I've seen, your chances at getting NYC vs. your home market (assuming it has biglaw firms) is going to depend more on the selectivity of your home market. And even if NYC is less selective than your home market, you still don't have a great chance at the big NYC firms when you are below median.


To the OP. Atlanta is amazing if you land a biglaw job. But if you don't go to one of Harvard, Yale, or Stanford, AND have ties to the South your chances at landing a big firm job are hilariously bad. If you get UVA, Duke, or Vandy your chances will be bad unless you get into the top 15 percent or so.

Where did people say that getting biglaw anywhere at median or below median is easy? I think they were talking about trying to maximize the chances of getting something, and bidding NYC heavily makes sense because it is the largest legal market and does not require ties.

NYC is generally less selective than wtv your home market is because other markets don't have nearly as many jobs (like Atlanta).

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guano
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby guano » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:25 pm

wiz wrote:NYC is generally less selective than wtv your home market is because other markets don't have nearly as many jobs (like Atlanta).

Other markets don't have anywhere near as many applicants, so your statement is weird.
If 5 people are applying for the 1 biglaw job in Bumblefuck, Iowa, that doesn't mean it's more selective than if 10,000 people are applying for 1,000 jobs in NYC

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:33 pm

guano wrote:
wiz wrote:NYC is generally less selective than wtv your home market is because other markets don't have nearly as many jobs (like Atlanta).

Other markets don't have anywhere near as many applicants, so your statement is weird.
If 5 people are applying for the 1 biglaw job in Bumblefuck, Iowa, that doesn't mean it's more selective than if 10,000 people are applying for 1,000 jobs in NYC

You're assuming incorrectly that NYC has disproportionately more applicants. This often isn't the case. NYC has about 2,000 biglaw SA's.

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sublime
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby sublime » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:55 pm

..

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Ricky-Bobby
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Re: Biglaw outside of NYC

Postby Ricky-Bobby » Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:03 am

sublime wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
guano wrote:
wiz wrote:NYC is generally less selective than wtv your home market is because other markets don't have nearly as many jobs (like Atlanta).

Other markets don't have anywhere near as many applicants, so your statement is weird.
If 5 people are applying for the 1 biglaw job in Bumblefuck, Iowa, that doesn't mean it's more selective than if 10,000 people are applying for 1,000 jobs in NYC

You're assuming incorrectly that NYC has disproportionately more applicants. This often isn't the case. NYC has about 2,000 biglaw SA's.



Yea, I go to school in a secondary and there are single firms that probably hire more SA's than my entire market.

This is terrifying. Stop saying things like this.




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