Will Lawyers' Employment Prospects Ever Pick Up? Forum

[cl101]

I'm in undergrad and just now starting to explore the possibility of law. We have some lawyers in the family and I excel in writing and the humanities, with a particular interest in history, political science, business, etc. I'm a good student at a good university and feel confident I could perform pretty well on the LSAT with some intense studying (I've always done well on standardized tests, esp on the reading comprehension section).

Now, everyone has been telling me DON'T GO!!!! YOU WON'T GET A JOB!!!! I want a job in BigLaw, probably employment law. Of course, my ideas might change if I do end up in law school, but I know I don't really want to work in government or public interest. I'm assuming the primary reason the job market is so tough right now is because of the 2008-2009 economic downturn, but our economy does seem to be rebuilding now bit by bit. Do you expect the law employment market to improve over the next 5 years, or should I really reconsider this plan

Thanks for the help and sorry for my cluelessness. I'm a naive undergrad...have pity!

[Randomnumbers]

lol.

[cl101]

lol.

Why lol? Seriously, I want some answers. I try to reason with my family in the business and they refuse to give hard answers...they just keep saying "DON'T GO!!!". I'm interested in law and think I would enjoy it. If I decide to go that route, I want to really start planning the rest of my undergrad education in anticipation of applying to law school (easier courses to keep my GPA up, LSAT prep books/classes, etc). I want to give myself the best possible chance of going to a great school if I do decide to pursue it, but I don't want to invest time and money in that kind of stuff if it's not going to be worth it. I know law school is a risk. So is dedicating one's self to medical school, pharm school, etc., but that being said, a lot of people are telling me LAW IS THE LAST THING I SHOULD BE CONSIDERING, even though it totally jives with what I excel in academically and am interested in.

As I said, I know I'm clueless, young and naive. Please help a dumb youngster out

[sinfiery]

It has gotten better but likely will never dramatically improve in a significant way. The job market for the vast majority of law schools is atrocious and will likely be until the day they are shutdown.


Not all law schools are created equally though and there are some that may be worth the investment, depending on how much scholarship money you are awarded, where you want to work, and what type of law you want to practice (public interest or private practice)
These schools aren't always the highest ranked ones. It really depends.

Basically, we can't tell you if the legal market is terrible for you without your GPA and LSAT but as a whole, law school is an absolutely terrible investment and if there were one person in charge of all students who've attended law school at the current prices and with the current job prospects, they should probably definitely be in jail for the rest of their life.

[Dolphine]

No. Law firms have fundamentally changed their hiring structures. This isn't a "oh the economy is bad right now, eventually it'll get better" type thing. Firms are cutting their incoming associates and relying more on mid-level, experience attorneys because their clients are no longer willing/able to subsidize the training for new associates.

So we're at a weird time where law firms are restructuring with no signs of ever going back, while law schools are still stuck doing it the old way. Eventually the law schools will restructure and perhaps those law students will see better prospects...but who knows when that will be.

If you want to do your own research there's more than enough info put out there by NALP about it.

[sundance95]

lol.

Why lol? Seriously, I want some answers. I try to reason with my family in the business and they refuse to give hard answers...they just keep saying "DON'T GO!!!". I'm interested in law and think I would enjoy it. If I decide to go that route, I want to really start planning the rest of my undergrad education in anticipation of applying to law school (easier courses to keep my GPA up, LSAT prep books/classes, etc). I want to give myself the best possible chance of going to a great school if I do decide to pursue it, but I don't want to invest time and money in that kind of stuff if it's not going to be worth it. I know law school is a risk. So is dedicating one's self to medical school, pharm school, etc., but that being said, a lot of people are telling me LAW IS THE LAST THING I SHOULD BE CONSIDERING, even though it totally jives with what I excel in academically and am interested in.

As I said, I know I'm clueless, young and naive. Please help a dumb youngster out

So you already know the strategies to best position yourself for law school, yet we're supposed to believe that you are so naive and hapless that you have no idea what the state of the legal services market is, or how to, you know, google it?

Weak flame, 120

[NYstate]

lol.

Why lol? Seriously, I want some answers. I try to reason with my family in the business and they refuse to give hard answers...they just keep saying "DON'T GO!!!". I'm interested in law and think I would enjoy it. If I decide to go that route, I want to really start planning the rest of my undergrad education in anticipation of applying to law school (easier courses to keep my GPA up, LSAT prep books/classes, etc). I want to give myself the best possible chance of going to a great school if I do decide to pursue it, but I don't want to invest time and money in that kind of stuff if it's not going to be worth it. I know law school is a risk. So is dedicating one's self to medical school, pharm school, etc., but that being said, a lot of people are telling me LAW IS THE LAST THING I SHOULD BE CONSIDERING, even though it totally jives with what I excel in academically and am interested in.

As I said, I know I'm clueless, young and naive. Please help a dumb youngster out

No. Don't go. It is not going to improve. Read the recent articles about Weil Gotshall layoffs.

[cl101]

It has gotten better but likely will never dramatically improve in a significant way. The job market for the vast majority of law schools is atrocious and will likely be until the day they are shutdown.


Not all law schools are created equally though and there are some that may be worth the investment, depending on how much scholarship money you are awarded, where you want to work, and what type of law you want to practice (public interest or private practice)
These schools aren't always the highest ranked ones. It really depends.

Basically, we can't tell you if the legal market is terrible for you without your GPA and LSAT but as a whole, law school is an absolutely terrible investment and if there were one person in charge of all students who've attended law school at the current prices and with the current job prospects, they should probably definitely be in jail for the rest of their life.

I completely understand that my GPA and LSAT score are the crucial determinants of whether I have a good chance at law school and where I go (and how I perform) for law school is the real determinant of whether I can get a job. From what I gather, it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to go to law school unless you end up at a top14, preferably with money, and it is unthinkable to even consider a lower ranked school (if you want Big Law) unless you're literally getting paid to go (with stipends, etc.), which is pretty rare. I don't want to find myself deep in debt from a mediocre school with absolutely no chance of a job. I would only both preparing for the LSAT if my GPA remains high enough to get me in to a top notch place

[Bronte]

The legal market might pick back up. In fact, there's a chance it could blast off. If deal activity gets back up to a fever pitch, the banks start doing securitizations again en masse, and federal hiring picks back up, big law firms would inevitably swell their ranks again. That's highly unlikely to happen soon, but something like it is likely to happen again in our lifetime.

But that's really irrelevant to you. Given the uncertainty, you should assume the drought will persist indefinitely. Under that assumption, law school can be a good idea if you go to the right school at the right price and have a reasonably informed belief that you'll enjoy being a lawyer.

What is the right school at the right price is the number one topic of discussion on TLS, so you shouldn't have any problem figuring that out.

Developing a reasonably informed belief that you'll enjoy being a lawyer is less frequently discussed. In short, you should (1) be able to tolerate if not enjoy technical reading and writing at length, (2) be extremely detail oriented, (3) be comfortable working long hours by yourself, at a desk, and (4) have either (a) an interest and preferably a background in business and finance or (b) a demonstrated interest, strong background, and zealot-like fervor for some non-unicorn public interest cause. Also, if multi-level lists like that make you uncomfortable, run.

[buttes]

The legal market might pick back up. In fact, there's a chance it could blast off. If deal activity gets back up to a fever pitch, the banks start doing securitizations again en masse, and federal hiring picks back up, big law firms would inevitably swell their ranks again. That's highly unlikely to happen soon, but something like it is likely to happen again in our lifetime.

But that's really irrelevant to you. Given the uncertainty, you should assume the drought will persist indefinitely. Under that assumption, law school can be a good idea if you go to the right school at the right price and have a reasonably informed belief that you'll enjoy being a lawyer.

What is the right school at the right price is the number one topic of discussion on TLS, so you shouldn't have any problem figuring that out.

Developing a reasonably informed belief that you'll enjoy being a lawyer is less frequently discussed. In short, you should (1) be able to tolerate if not enjoy technical reading and writing at length, (2) be extremely detail oriented, (3) be comfortable working long hours by yourself, at a desk, and (4) have either (a) an interest and preferably a background in business and finance or (b) a demonstrated interest, strong background, and zealot-like fervor for some non-unicorn public interest cause. Also, if multi-level lists like that make you uncomfortable, run.

Or (4)(c) have a hard science degree. But even then in may be better to just go into research/continue in academia unless you can get into a pretty good school.

[romothesavior]

lol.

Why lol? Seriously, I want some answers. I try to reason with my family in the business and they refuse to give hard answers...they just keep saying "DON'T GO!!!". I'm interested in law and think I would enjoy it. If I decide to go that route, I want to really start planning the rest of my undergrad education in anticipation of applying to law school (easier courses to keep my GPA up, LSAT prep books/classes, etc). I want to give myself the best possible chance of going to a great school if I do decide to pursue it, but I don't want to invest time and money in that kind of stuff if it's not going to be worth it. I know law school is a risk. So is dedicating one's self to medical school, pharm school, etc., but that being said, a lot of people are telling me LAW IS THE LAST THING I SHOULD BE CONSIDERING, even though it totally jives with what I excel in academically and am interested in.

As I said, I know I'm clueless, young and naive. Please help a dumb youngster out

So you already know the strategies to best position yourself for law school, yet we're supposed to believe that you are so naive and hapless that you have no idea what the state of the legal services market is, or how to, you know, google it?

Weak flame, 120

The OP is asking reasonable and critical questions about the legal market. That's exactly the kind of behavior we should be encouraging from 0Ls. I've warned people about this before and I'lldo it again: calling flame for no reason will earn you a timeout.

[guano]

The legal market might pick back up. In fact, there's a chance it could blast off. If deal activity gets back up to a fever pitch, the banks start doing securitizations again en masse, and federal hiring picks back up, big law firms would inevitably swell their ranks again. That's highly unlikely to happen soon, but something like it is likely to happen again in our lifetime.

[cl101]

lol.

Why lol? Seriously, I want some answers. I try to reason with my family in the business and they refuse to give hard answers...they just keep saying "DON'T GO!!!". I'm interested in law and think I would enjoy it. If I decide to go that route, I want to really start planning the rest of my undergrad education in anticipation of applying to law school (easier courses to keep my GPA up, LSAT prep books/classes, etc). I want to give myself the best possible chance of going to a great school if I do decide to pursue it, but I don't want to invest time and money in that kind of stuff if it's not going to be worth it. I know law school is a risk. So is dedicating one's self to medical school, pharm school, etc., but that being said, a lot of people are telling me LAW IS THE LAST THING I SHOULD BE CONSIDERING, even though it totally jives with what I excel in academically and am interested in.

As I said, I know I'm clueless, young and naive. Please help a dumb youngster out

So you already know the strategies to best position yourself for law school, yet we're supposed to believe that you are so naive and hapless that you have no idea what the state of the legal services market is, or how to, you know, google it?

Weak flame, 120

The OP is asking reasonable and critical questions about the legal market. That's exactly the kind of behavior we should be encouraging from 0Ls. I've warned people about this before and I'lldo it again: calling flame for no reason will earn you a timeout.

Thanks. I really don't understand why people get so incredibly aggressive on here. We're all prospective/current/former law students in a tough legal market...shouldn't we be supporting each other rather than going off all the time?

[Bronte]

Developing a reasonably informed belief that you'll enjoy being a lawyer is less frequently discussed. In short, you should (1) be able to tolerate if not enjoy technical reading and writing at length, (2) be extremely detail oriented, (3) be comfortable working long hours by yourself, at a desk, and (4) have either (a) an interest and preferably a background in business and finance or (b) a demonstrated interest, strong background, and zealot-like fervor for some non-unicorn public interest cause. Also, if multi-level lists like that make you uncomfortable, run.

Or (4)(c) have a hard science degree. But even then in may be better to just go into research/continue in academia unless you can get into a pretty good school.

Agreed. Also, to elaborate on number 4, you should also have a good reason why you don't want to directly work in that area, e.g., be an engineer. In general, a good reason might be that you like that area conceptually but don't enjoy the technical aspects of it, like the number crunching.

[oblig.lawl.ref]

Thanks. I really don't understand why people get so incredibly aggressive on here. We're all prospective/current/former law students in a tough legal market...shouldn't we be supporting each other rather than going off all the time?

Hmmmm... anyways. Probably the biggest problem with this question is that most of the biggest firms' managing partners are trying their best to answer it and none really can. It's exactly like asking "Will the U.S. economy start growing again like it did in the mid-1990s?" Or something like that. I'm not an economist so I don't know the best comparison. But I can tell you no one really knows the answer to this.

I guess I'd say it depends on what you mean by "pick up." By all accounts the Class of 2013 and 2014 should do much better than the class of 2012/11. So in that sense it already picked up. If you mean back to like 2007 levels--who knows?

[bearsfan23]

Most people and here will tell you no, that job prospects are terrible, that there is "fundamental restructuring", etc. They're correct, but it really depends on what your other options are.

From almost every post I've seen on here it's pretty clear people who zero idea of the job prospects in other job industries. Most people are naive enough to think STEM is a golden ticket or something, its not. I've worked in a couple of other industries before law school, the job prospects aren't great in those either.

ITE, there really aren't many great options. If you have the option of playing in the NBA or something, I'd say that's a better decision, otherwise idk. Law school can be a decent decision or it can be a bad decision, it really comes down to what schools you get into, what the cost is relative to what you will pay, and what your other options are.

[NYstate]

Most people and here will tell you no, that job prospects are terrible, that there is "fundamental restructuring", etc. They're correct, but it really depends on what your other options are.

From almost every post I've seen on here it's pretty clear people who zero idea of the job prospects in other job industries. Most people are naive enough to think STEM is a golden ticket or something, its not. I've worked in a couple of other industries before law school, the job prospects aren't great in those either.

ITE, there really aren't many great options. If you have the option of playing in the NBA or something, I'd say that's a better decision, otherwise idk. Law school can be a decent decision or it can be a bad decision, it really comes down to what schools you get into, what the cost is relative to what you will pay, and what your other options are.

Really? Are there other professional degrees where at least half of the grads won't ever find jobs in their fields? The over supply of lawyers is a huge problem. Maybe no career is perfect but the statistics for law are terrible. Many people think biglaw is changing because of the pressure clients are putting on firms. That pressure includes not using junior associates for work that can be outsourced. I haven't seen a single projection that law is going to improve.

[romothesavior]

I've worked in a couple of other industries before law school, the job prospects aren't great in those either.

See the key word there? That's the issue. About half of all law graduates aren't working as lawyers 9 months after graduation.

[cinephile]

Doesn't matter if it may pick up at some point in the future. The only thing that should matter to you is if it's likely to pick up by the time you're ready to enroll in law school, and there is no way that's going to happen. Not that soon. At least you're still in undergrad and can focus your studies on something else.

[romothesavior]

Doesn't matter if it may pick up at some point in the future. The only thing that should matter to you is if it's likely to pick up by the time you're ready to enroll in law school, and there is no way that's going to happen. Not that soon. At least you're still in undergrad and can focus your studies on something else.

I'll take a bit of a different approach, and one that may surprise some of you coming from me: now is actually a great time to go to law school for many people.

Schools are throwing out money for numbers like never before. If you have a respectable GPA/LSAT, you can go for free to some really good schools. And even if the job market remains stagnant, there are fewer students at top schools due to declines in matriculation. I expect to see much better job data for T14/T20ish people in the c/o 2015 and 2016 than we see today.

[Samara]

Doesn't matter if it may pick up at some point in the future. The only thing that should matter to you is if it's likely to pick up by the time you're ready to enroll in law school, and there is no way that's going to happen. Not that soon. At least you're still in undergrad and can focus your studies on something else.

I'll take a bit of a different approach, and one that may surprise some of you coming from me: now is actually a great time to go to law school for many people.

Schools are throwing out money for numbers like never before. If you have a respectable GPA/LSAT, you can go for free to some really good schools. And even if the job market remains stagnant, there are fewer students at top schools due to declines in matriculation. I expect to see much better job data for T14/T20ish people in the c/o 2015 and 2016 than we see today.

I agree. Seeing some of the results from this cycle kind of makes me wish I would have delayed a year. Law school is a bad bet for most students attending, but that doesn't mean it's a bad bet for everyone. Do your research and play the game.

I'm not accusing cinephile of this, but I've seen a lot of people on here (usually 0Ls, LOL) take the ITE fearmongering too far lately. The Weil layoffs are not a harbinger of doom for the biglaw model or the firm. Every industry has layoffs and cutbacks and restructuring, but people expect biglaw to somehow be immune.

[09042014]

Law firm hiring isn't really THAT much different than it was during boom times. Only now the shitty market of the market hits students who go to elite schools so the WSJ gives a shit enough to write about it.

Shitlaw wasn't born in 2008. Everyone other than top students at T1 schools, have always had dogshit returns on investments for law.

There are way too many law grads for the number of jobs the economy has. It's been that way for a very long time, and untill law schools close en masse, it'll stay that way.

[NYstate]

Doesn't matter if it may pick up at some point in the future. The only thing that should matter to you is if it's likely to pick up by the time you're ready to enroll in law school, and there is no way that's going to happen. Not that soon. At least you're still in undergrad and can focus your studies on something else.

I'll take a bit of a different approach, and one that may surprise some of you coming from me: now is actually a great time to go to law school for many people.

Schools are throwing out money for numbers like never before. If you have a respectable GPA/LSAT, you can go for free to some really good schools. And even if the job market remains stagnant, there are fewer students at top schools due to declines in matriculation. I expect to see much better job data for T14/T20ish people in the c/o 2015 and 2016 than we see today.

I agree. Seeing some of the results from this cycle kind of makes me wish I would have delayed a year. Law school is a bad bet for most students attending, but that doesn't mean it's a bad bet for everyone. Do your research and play the game.

I'm not accusing cinephile of this, but I've seen a lot of people on here (usually 0Ls, LOL) take the ITE fearmongering too far lately. The Weil layoffs are not a harbinger of doom for the biglaw model or the firm. Every industry has layoffs and cutbacks and restructuring, but people expect biglaw to somehow be immune.

The flaw is that many people posting here calculate their decision to go to law school and howuch to borrow based on biglaw hiring. People post their planned budgets before they have taken a class or an exam. People need to account for the fact that biglaw is not a stable career path, even if they get hired. This is why the announced Weil layoffs and the continuous stealth layoffs shouldn't be ignored.

The other problem I have with this argument is that there is definite evidence of firms moving to two teirs of incoming associates, sending staff associates ( or whatever they call them) to back office locations in West Virginia and Ohio. Firms are outsourcing as much discovery work as they can and are under extreme pressure from clients to cut the cost of junior associates. It would be foolish to think that incoming class sizes are going to stay the same size.

I know it seems tempting to go to law school when the cost is lower. But the cost is lower because people are choosing to find a different career path. Schools are getting more desperate because people are finally getting better and more complete data on hiring and employment figures. Just keep in mind the reason people aren't going to law school- there aren't jobs.

Could there be a huge upturn and everything becomes like the go- go 1990s or the tech boom or the period of incessant growth before the recession? I don't know the answer to those questions.

[NYstate]

Law firm hiring isn't really THAT much different than it was during boom times. Only now the shitty market of the market hits students who go to elite schools so the WSJ gives a shit enough to write about it.

Shitlaw wasn't born in 2008. Everyone other than top students at T1 schools, have always had dogshit returns on investments for law.

There are way too many law grads for the number of jobs the economy has. It's been that way for a very long time, and untill law schools close en masse, it'll stay that way.

At least now it is harder for schools to lie about employment prospects. Those false prospects enticed many people to go to law schools.

Also, there have been changes since ITE. Government used to hire. PI used to hire. And my firm used to have summer class sizes of 100 people or so. All those jobs are gone or greatly reduced now.

I agree that grads from certain schools always had trouble finding jobs. With the current expense of law school, even fewer schools are worth attending. I think that many top students struggle to find jobs at T1 ( even T14) schools. We just don't hear much about it on this forum.

[09042014]

Law firm hiring isn't really THAT much different than it was during boom times. Only now the shitty market of the market hits students who go to elite schools so the WSJ gives a shit enough to write about it.

Shitlaw wasn't born in 2008. Everyone other than top students at T1 schools, have always had dogshit returns on investments for law.

There are way too many law grads for the number of jobs the economy has. It's been that way for a very long time, and untill law schools close en masse, it'll stay that way.

At least now it is harder for schools to lie about employment prospects. Those false prospects enticed many people to go to law schools.

Also, there have been changes since ITE. Government used to hire. PI used to hire. And my firm used to have summer class sizes of 100 people or so. All those jobs are gone or greatly reduced now.

I agree that grads from certain schools always had trouble finding jobs. With the current expense of law school, even fewer schools are worth attending. I think that many top students struggle to find jobs at T1 ( even T14) schools. We just don't hear much about it on this forum.

Gov used to hire, but I assume PI has always been a flame.

Biglaw hiring is down what? About 30-40% from the peak? And the peak was unnaturally inflated because of derivatives work.

We aren't THAT far off from old normal. Which means this is probably just the new normal, but you are right about Gov. That's one thing that really really changed.