0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

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071816
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby 071816 » Wed May 29, 2013 4:23 pm

JXander wrote:I read/am reading the following while working full-time as an assistant at a law firm. The following books are/have been great:

-Atticus Falcon's Planet Law School II
-Delaney's Learning Legal Reasoning
-Delaney's How to Do Your Best on LS Exams
-Burke & Snoe's Property supplement
-Glannon's E&E on Torts
-Blum's E&E on Contracts
-Glannon's E&E on Civ Pro
-Dressler's Understanding Crim Law

I am also taking some time to read some classic and generally outstanding fiction before I get completely overtaken by dull outlines and casebooks. Spending time with family is a good idea, too.

I am trying to decide if I want to invest in LEEWS or not... Any thoughts from those who have used it?

what a sweet kid

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Bronck
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby Bronck » Wed May 29, 2013 4:27 pm

Volake wrote:I'm sorry you feel that way about the texts that explain the laws of different areas, the ways to evaluate problems and circumstances brought up in different areas of the law, and the policies different areas of law were designed to promote. I found learning different scholar's perspectives and presentations of the law very satisfying.


Doctrinal classes are boring. Law school is a flame and nothing like practice. I've never heard anyone say that learning stuff like policy can be interesting/fun.

JXander wrote:Why do you say that? Do you think I am wasting time in reading all of these or just a few? I am not delving so intensely into these resources so that they occupy my every waking minute; I have been reading through them for no more than an hour over my morning coffee. I certainly do not spend my weekends sheltered in Blum's discussion on promissory estoppel or whatever. Do you think it is a waste of time to even expose oneself to the basics, or do you believe that there are better ways to handle this? Explain.


There are a ton of threads that cover this. There's really no need to cover any doctrinal stuff before law school starts. You'll (a) likely forget a lot, (b) end up learning some things incorrectly (e.g., your professor may view shit differently than the supplement or you may just be misinterpreting the supplement), and (c) go over shit that your professor simply won't cover (like a lot of torts classes don't cover intentional torts).

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JamesDean1955
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed May 29, 2013 4:30 pm

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Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Volake
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby Volake » Wed May 29, 2013 4:32 pm

JXander wrote:
Bronck wrote:
JXander wrote:I read/am reading the following while working full-time as an assistant at a law firm. The following books are/have been great:

-Atticus Falcon's Planet Law School II
-Delaney's Learning Legal Reasoning
-Delaney's How to Do Your Best on LS Exams
-Burke & Snoe's Property supplement
-Glannon's E&E on Torts
-Blum's E&E on Contracts
-Glannon's E&E on Civ Pro
-Dressler's Understanding Crim Law


Lol, what a waste of time.

Why do you say that? Do you think I am wasting time in reading all of these or just a few? I am not delving so intensely into these resources so that they occupy my every waking minute; I have been reading through them for no more than an hour over my morning coffee. I certainly do not spend my weekends sheltered in Blum's discussion on promissory estoppel or whatever. Do you think it is a waste of time to even expose oneself to the basics, or do you believe that there are better ways to handle this? Explain.
Volake wrote:it makes no sense to characterize another's deciding to do so as a "waste of time."

At least, not with an explanation that is limited to "lol." :?


One arguing that it isn't the best time best spent would say that it includes much more information than will necessarily be helpful. You will probably spend hundreds of pages reading information that will not be covered in your course. Further, the author of the supplement may have different ways of presenting the core concepts than your professor. Having your syllabus in front of you and having a couple weeks of exposure to your professor's style/presentation regarding the material may allow you to best use the supplement to reinforce areas that you will ultimately responsible for.

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JXander
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby JXander » Wed May 29, 2013 4:40 pm

Bronck wrote:
JXander wrote:Why do you say that? Do you think I am wasting time in reading all of these or just a few? I am not delving so intensely into these resources so that they occupy my every waking minute; I have been reading through them for no more than an hour over my morning coffee. I certainly do not spend my weekends sheltered in Blum's discussion on promissory estoppel or whatever. Do you think it is a waste of time to even expose oneself to the basics, or do you believe that there are better ways to handle this? Explain.


There are a ton of threads that cover this. There's really no need to cover any doctrinal stuff before law school starts. You'll (a) likely forget a lot, (b) end up learning some things incorrectly (e.g., your professor may view shit differently than the supplement or you may just be misinterpreting the supplement), and (c) go over shit that your professor simply won't cover (like a lot of torts classes don't cover intentional torts).

I have read through those threads, thanks. Some of them also encourage preparation. My friends at LS have said they wished they had prepared more, and others say that it would not have helped. I would rather lean on the safe side and go in with some very basic knowledge, whether or not it will substantially help me succeed. At the very least, I suspect the somewhat dense reading will keep my mind sharp during the summer and honed for the rough reading and analysis I will encounter.
JamesDean1955 wrote:I think there is very little value in substantive 0L prep

Do you think there is any value in general, basic 0L prep? Do you think the same premise applies to preparation that utilizes more general resources (Delaney's books, LEEWS)?

I am not trying to pick a fight here, but I am legitimately interested your thoughts, especially from the perspective from current law students.

Volake
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby Volake » Wed May 29, 2013 4:49 pm

JXander wrote:
Bronck wrote:
JXander wrote:Why do you say that? Do you think I am wasting time in reading all of these or just a few? I am not delving so intensely into these resources so that they occupy my every waking minute; I have been reading through them for no more than an hour over my morning coffee. I certainly do not spend my weekends sheltered in Blum's discussion on promissory estoppel or whatever. Do you think it is a waste of time to even expose oneself to the basics, or do you believe that there are better ways to handle this? Explain.


There are a ton of threads that cover this. There's really no need to cover any doctrinal stuff before law school starts. You'll (a) likely forget a lot, (b) end up learning some things incorrectly (e.g., your professor may view shit differently than the supplement or you may just be misinterpreting the supplement), and (c) go over shit that your professor simply won't cover (like a lot of torts classes don't cover intentional torts).

I have read through those threads, thanks. Some of them also encourage preparation. My friends at LS have said they wished they had prepared more, and others say that it would not have helped. I would rather lean on the safe side and go in with some very basic knowledge, whether or not it will substantially help me succeed. At the very least, I suspect the somewhat dense reading will keep my mind sharp during the summer and honed for the rough reading and analysis I will encounter.
JamesDean1955 wrote:I think there is very little value in substantive 0L prep

Do you think there is any value in general, basic 0L prep? Do you think the same premise applies to preparation that utilizes more general resources (Delaney's books, LEEWS)?

I am not trying to pick a fight here, but I am legitimately interested your thoughts, especially from the perspective from current law students.


If you enjoy the substantive prep and have the time to do it, it probably isn't a bad idea, provided you've done the general prep. Just don't be surprised when you take your classes and you know areas of the subject that will be no value to you in terms of the final exam. Also, be prepared to discard any paradigms or concepts that clash with how your professor views the topic. But, if you are mindful of this, then exposure to substantive prep could be very helpful.

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JXander
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby JXander » Wed May 29, 2013 4:52 pm

Volake wrote:If you enjoy the substantive prep and have the time to do it, it probably isn't a bad idea, provided you've done the general prep. Just don't be surprised when you take your classes and you know areas of the subject that will be no value to you in terms of the final exam. Also, be prepared to discard any paradigms or concepts that clash with how your professor views the topic. But, if you are mindful of this, then exposure to substantive prep could be very helpful.

That seems to make a lot of sense, thanks.

drive4showLSAT4dough
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby drive4showLSAT4dough » Wed May 29, 2013 4:58 pm

I read somewhere that you actually don't get awarded points for gunning during your 0L summer.

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sinfiery
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby sinfiery » Wed May 29, 2013 5:07 pm

yes...points...I will be rewatching home movies before LS.
Thank you.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed May 29, 2013 5:31 pm

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Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sainthawk29
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby sainthawk29 » Wed May 29, 2013 5:34 pm

Since I asked the question, I will play.

I have read in the last month.

One L- Scott Turow
Law 101- Jay Feinman
How to Read Like a Lawyer- Ruth Ann McKinney

and about to state Law School Confidential.

Not sure how much they will help in the long run. But, they help my nervousness about being under prepared for school in August.

Volake
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby Volake » Wed May 29, 2013 5:43 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I'm an 0L. Was just giving my advice based on what I've gathered over the past 3 years speaking with students, applying to law school, and talking with first year biglaw associates at my job, but don't base your decision on what other 0Ls tell you, myself included.

If I'm not mistaken, Volake is an 0L too. One 0L encouraging another 0L to do/not do 0L prep is not that valuable. Read the threads on this site and speak to actual, living breathing law students in person and then decide.


You are mistaken: finished my 1L year and did quite well (top 5% at a t50). But you're right, those threads are quite helpful... In my opinion, the value of substantive 0L prep depends on whether it's going to burn you out or whether you like the reading. If it's going to keep you from going into your first class with all engines running, then just do general prep and chill out this summer in other ways. I wish I'd done a bit of substantive prep, personally.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby JamesDean1955 » Wed May 29, 2013 5:58 pm

Gotcha Volake. Always good to hear from the few current students that advocate for 0L prep. It's also a question of whether one can unlearn parts of their 0L prep that are not relevant to your class and don't conflict with what your prof wants to see, and know how/when to apply the relevant parts. Not everyone is as good at this. So general advice tends to be less useful here.

Most importantly though (to me at least) it's a question of utility: is the added benefit of substantive prep worth the effort? For most 0Ls, they will probably have to put in multiple times the effort as a 1L with 1-2 months experience to learn the same thing which may or may not prove useful, and if it does, is something that could be learned on the fly during 1L semester.

In other words, 5 hours of 0L prep may save you 30min of 1L prep (just an abstract example but you get the point). And this prep, learning the law, is not sufficient to do well on exams. In fact, it's arguably not even the most important component.

So the way I see it, it simply isn't worth my time and energy. Again, 0L here so I can't look back retroactively and say what I would have done, just trying to work it out logically.

If you have literally nothing else to do, and can stop yourself and just relax for 2-4 weeks before school starts, I guess that's a different story.
Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Wed May 29, 2013 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Wed May 29, 2013 6:00 pm

sainthawk29 wrote:Also to non 0L's, what did you do,
I tried to read One L, but it was too boring. Then I tried to read GTM, but MAN, talk about boring.
sainthawk29 wrote: and in hindsight would you have done something differently?
No.

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BlueJeanBaby
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby BlueJeanBaby » Wed May 29, 2013 6:04 pm

JXander wrote:
lawhopeful10 wrote:I did LEEWS first then GTM and have started now with E&Es and hornbooks. LEEWs was a decent introduction and has a couple decent insights but I feel like you could gain most of the knowledge just perusing TLS and success guides. My opinion would be if you don't care about the money buy it but if you are trying to save it probably won't be a big deal not getting it.

Seems reasonable. Thanks!


I thought I was reading a bunch but jeez, you guys are making me look lazy. I'm getting a tan, fishing, and drinking a lot of beer between a little pre-law reading. Also, I got the second to most recent edition on Ebay for less than $50 and it is in perfect condition and supposedly has almost the exact same material. Just a thought.

Volake
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby Volake » Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 pm

Yeah. I'd definitely agree that the most important prep would be the general preparation, like Getting to Maybe and LEEWS. Your professors will probably not teach you how to write a law exam effectively, so getting an idea of how you're going to eventually apply the law you will learn to facts on an exam is critical. But there's a much stronger argument against learning the substance of your courses ahead of time for the reasons that have been mentioned before.

But even with those drawbacks, having a general framework of the area of law could allow you to quicker understand the framework your particular professor views the topic. It could buy you some time when it will be most dearly needed, as you struggle to balance between school activities, general class preparation, outlining, and maintaining some sort of social life.

CourCour
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby CourCour » Wed May 29, 2013 10:33 pm

Reading about how to do well in law school is just a stress release technique for thinking about how much I'm spending to go to law school. Also, beats doing work at work (just kidding of course).

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bumblebeetuna
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby bumblebeetuna » Wed May 29, 2013 10:58 pm

Volake wrote:But even with those drawbacks, having a general framework of the area of law could allow you to quicker understand the framework your particular professor views the topic. It could buy you some time when it will be most dearly needed, as you struggle to balance between school activities, general class preparation, outlining, and maintaining some sort of social life.


It seems the trouble is getting an actual framework without slogging through all of the nitty gritty, which, as others have pointed out, is quite possibly a waste of time. Also, how broad of a framework are we talking here? Are we talking about general ways we can and cannot identify, say, intention or negligence in torts? And if developing this framework over 0L is desirable, what are the best means to do so--E&E's?

Finally, weighing the time it takes to develop this framework vs. the probably much smaller time one takes to do so while in law school, as I think JamesDean pointed out, is another possible reason why 0L prep is not worth the hassle. So I'd be curious to hear your take on this.

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togepi
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby togepi » Thu May 30, 2013 12:48 am

It's debatable about prepping with the E&Es.

GTM, LEEWS, TLS guides on how to do well, brush up your writing skills, etc.

Basically go into law school knowing what's ahead of you and I think you'll be fine.

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lhanvt13
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby lhanvt13 » Thu May 30, 2013 3:00 am

Learning how to cook better food.

Volake
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby Volake » Thu May 30, 2013 3:09 am

Finally, weighing the time it takes to develop this framework vs. the probably much smaller time one takes to do so while in law school, as I think JamesDean pointed out, is another possible reason why 0L prep is not worth the hassle. So I'd be curious to hear your take on this.


The way I see it, a way to do well on a law school exam is to have a very lucid understanding of the law within the scope that your professor presents the subject matter and know how to apply the law to the facts, being able to recognize and fully exploit issues that arise.

0L substantive prep could give you a bit of a heads-up on forming this lucid understanding. I don't think that much inefficiency results because you're less equipped to comprehend the material: if you start from the beginning of the supplement and sequentially proceed, you shouldn't get lost. Your Contracts professor will not imbue you with the power to understand the concept of mutual assent, for instance, as if before the concept was mystically inaccessible. The inefficiency will result from covering areas beyond those your class will cover- you have no way of knowing what your professor will omit from his or her class.

And this inefficiency in addition to the possibility of forgetting the stuff before class begins makes it reasonable to conclude that it is not worth the hassle- the returns are definitely not as great as general prep, such as GTM and LEEWS.

But it's also reasonable to conclude that substantive prep is worth the time, if you're so inclined. Just reading through a supplement from start to finish, without outlining or taking notes, can give you a good idea of the topic. Then when you are reading your casebook and attending lectures you will have a bit of a grasp on the essentials so you can focus on your professor's perspective on the law and the aspects that he or she chooses to emphasize.

Here are a couple threads which recommend supplements
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=201636&p=6270766&hilit=Supplements#p6270766
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=194417

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KD35
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby KD35 » Thu May 30, 2013 3:19 am

GTM...a bit of E&E torts and civ pro, just to orient myself with some of the language and get a gist of th topic. Gunner ish but whatever. That mixed with fornication and sipping drinks by the pool. Figuring out my budget for next year as well.

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togepi
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby togepi » Thu May 30, 2013 4:10 am

lhanvt13 wrote:Learning how to cook better food.


Yeah, I'm definitely going to need to learn to eat healthier while in law school. I miss my undergrad body where I could eat fast food 10 times a week and not gain weight.

I have some audio files for Torts, Contracts, and Civil Procedure I'll be listening to. I have a 17 hour flight from South Korea back to the United States. Might as well.

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HankBashir
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby HankBashir » Thu May 30, 2013 4:58 am

I'm starting the CLEO 6-week pre-law institute next week. I graduated in December and couldn't find a job, so I've been doing jack shit (lifting weights, running, rowing and tons of video games) since then. I'll do some more of that after I get back from CLEO.

I read Turow's One L about a year ago, and I'm doing a slow slog through 1L of a Ride.

My mother (who stopped being a practicing attorney before I was born) wanted to give me all of her old bar prep books to read through....took a giant pass on that one.

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Nova
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Re: 0Ls: How are you preparing for school this fall.

Postby Nova » Thu May 30, 2013 5:15 am

I read GTM and LEEWS. I would recommend reading them. It felt sufficient.




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