Employment by Gender the

(Please Ask Questions and Answer Questions)
User avatar
TheBiggerMediocre
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Employment by Gender the

Postby TheBiggerMediocre » Fri May 10, 2013 2:30 pm

Do any schools post employment by gender?
Almost all the recent law school grads that I have met that went to ranked schools but couldn't find jobs were women. Are there statistics anywhere? Does the glass ceiling exist?

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby twenty » Fri May 10, 2013 3:40 pm

Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.

M458
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 5:58 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby M458 » Fri May 10, 2013 5:06 pm

twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.


http://employers.nalpdirectory.org/empl ... tham%22%7D

Under Racial/Ethnic demographics, you can see the breakdown of men vs. women associates and partners. You can do this for every NALP firm's office, I belive.

Again, not answering your question directly, but you can see there is a wide discrepancy between # of male partners and # of female partners.

User avatar
VegasLaw702
Posts: 92
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:40 am

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby VegasLaw702 » Sat May 11, 2013 4:13 am

twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.


Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, and their lack of advancement might signal that they are perceived as being not as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. Which doesn't make sense, since they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), but you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.

Edited for clarification.
Last edited by VegasLaw702 on Sat May 11, 2013 5:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

dkb17xzx
Posts: 405
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:25 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby dkb17xzx » Sat May 11, 2013 4:58 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.


Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, because they usually aren't as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. While they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.



this is gonna get interesting.

User avatar
TheBiggerMediocre
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby TheBiggerMediocre » Sat May 11, 2013 9:16 pm

Alright I can see a number of these possibilities playing out. But it seems to me as if women are regarded equally but would rather no take on the responsibility of being partner.

User avatar
rinkrat19
Posts: 13910
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 am

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby rinkrat19 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:27 pm

TheBiggerMediocre wrote:Alright I can see a number of these possibilities playing out. But it seems to me as if women are regarded equally but would rather no take on the responsibility of being partner.

And where are you getting this cute little fantasy?

User avatar
dr123
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:38 am

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby dr123 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:28 pm

dkb17xzx wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.


Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, because they usually aren't as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. While they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.



this is gonna get interesting.


loooool.

User avatar
A. Nony Mouse
Posts: 22779
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:51 am

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat May 11, 2013 9:29 pm

Keep in mind the OP once suggested law schools should admit only men, so.... (although that doesn't explain VegasLaw's idiocy).

062914123
Posts: 1846
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 2:11 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby 062914123 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:30 pm

.
Last edited by 062914123 on Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
rinkrat19
Posts: 13910
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:35 am

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby rinkrat19 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:37 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Keep in mind the OP once suggested law schools should admit only men, so.... (although that doesn't explain VegasLaw's idiocy).

Vegas seems to have rephrased himself.

OP is lame, ty for the warning. I shall not engage.

User avatar
dr123
Posts: 3503
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:38 am

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby dr123 » Sat May 11, 2013 9:39 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Keep in mind the OP once suggested law schools should admit only men, so.... (although that doesn't explain VegasLaw's idiocy).

Vegas seems to have rephrased himself.

OP is lame, ty for the warning. I shall not engage.


nah that's some back pedalling

User avatar
Tekrul
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:17 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby Tekrul » Sun May 12, 2013 9:18 am

VegasLaw702 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.


Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, and their lack of advancement might signal that they are perceived as being not as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. Which doesn't make sense, since they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), but you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.

Edited for clarification.


Part of this reason may fall into an anomaly particular to the legal education or legal work, amongst other select fields.

Across the board in most types of universities, women outperform men in class and achieve higher grades and more departmental honors. However, it should be noted that grades at a college are often made up of frequent "checks". Short papers, problem sets, quizzes, and midterms. This lends itself to the diligence and lesser degree of socialization that women have statistically reported at universities.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/educa ... wanted=all


However, law school is one of those few types of school where men vastly outperform women. Many have attributed it to the adversarial type of learning that the Socratic Method exemplifies; perhaps women do not respond to this type of learning. Others have called into question factors such as the fact that men outperform women on the SAT. When the entire grade comes down to 1 four hour exam, much like the SAT, the high stakes pressure and the nature of law school not having any of college's "checks" seems not to speak to women. Still more look to the trend that men outperform women in math and science related courses. As these courses lend themselves to logical/analytical ability much as law does, perhaps there is a relation there.
http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/jlsj/vol33/iss1/3/

I have included sources here because I have brought up a salient issue.

This is a problem that law schools have been aware of for almost 20 years. I can say confidently that it is a topic of debate at many law schools and the ABA but no one is quite sure of the actual reason why this is the case so change has been slow just because they don't know quite what to change.

So as far as gender discrepancy goes in employment and advancement - it may seem to heavily favor men, and perhaps the lifestyle of a law firm associate or the self selection of women to leave the work force plays a role, but the discrepancy starts early and begins at the school.

Edit: Sigh! This was a troll? Thanks for wasting my time and making me heated about an actual problem, idiot.

User avatar
twenty
Posts: 3153
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:17 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby twenty » Sun May 12, 2013 12:22 pm

Tekrul wrote:fairly long post


Though OP may have been a troll, I would like to publicly commend you on taking what could appear to be a very unpopular position and giving a reasonable case for it.

User avatar
TheBiggerMediocre
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:26 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby TheBiggerMediocre » Sun May 12, 2013 12:25 pm

Tekrul wrote:
VegasLaw702 wrote:
twentypercentmore wrote:Not necessarily relevent to your question, but I'd think a "glass ceiling" of sorts is a lot more likely to exist at the 3-4 year associate mark (i.e, retention) than at the hiring level.


Spot on. Female attorneys will have a harder time advancing, and their lack of advancement might signal that they are perceived as being not as competent as their male counterparts when it comes to practicing law. Which doesn't make sense, since they generally share equal representation in law schools (and in some cases number more than males), but you rarely find very many of them making partner and advancing very far.

Edited for clarification.


Part of this reason may fall into an anomaly particular to the legal education or legal work, amongst other select fields.

Across the board in most types of universities, women outperform men in class and achieve higher grades and more departmental honors. However, it should be noted that grades at a college are often made up of frequent "checks". Short papers, problem sets, quizzes, and midterms. This lends itself to the diligence and lesser degree of socialization that women have statistically reported at universities.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/educa ... wanted=all


However, law school is one of those few types of school where men vastly outperform women. Many have attributed it to the adversarial type of learning that the Socratic Method exemplifies; perhaps women do not respond to this type of learning. Others have called into question factors such as the fact that men outperform women on the SAT. When the entire grade comes down to 1 four hour exam, much like the SAT, the high stakes pressure and the nature of law school not having any of college's "checks" seems not to speak to women. Still more look to the trend that men outperform women in math and science related courses. As these courses lend themselves to logical/analytical ability much as law does, perhaps there is a relation there.
http://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/jlsj/vol33/iss1/3/

I have included sources here because I have brought up a salient issue.

This is a problem that law schools have been aware of for almost 20 years. I can say confidently that it is a topic of debate at many law schools and the ABA but no one is quite sure of the actual reason why this is the case so change has been slow just because they don't know quite what to change.

So as far as gender discrepancy goes in employment and advancement - it may seem to heavily favor men, and perhaps the lifestyle of a law firm associate or the self selection of women to leave the work force plays a role, but the discrepancy starts early and begins at the school.

Edit: Sigh! This was a troll? Thanks for wasting my time and making me heated about an actual problem, idiot.


I am NOT A FUCKING TROLL, thanks for the response. What do you mean by "but the discrepancy starts early and begins at the school" ?

I guess that means men outperform women in law school as a change of pace from college. Are there any facts to back up that remark about entry level jobs after law school selecting men over women of the same class rank and school?

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby rad lulz » Sun May 12, 2013 12:43 pm

Employment by Gender the


lol

User avatar
oaken
Posts: 339
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:27 am

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby oaken » Sun May 12, 2013 6:25 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Employment by Gender the


lol

User avatar
Tekrul
Posts: 493
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:17 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby Tekrul » Sun May 12, 2013 11:01 pm

By "the discrepancy starts early and begins at law school" I mean to say that the overwhelming ratio of men:women in the legal work force is not a gender discrepancy that is solely based on issues in the work force, or self-selection, or a "boys' club" effect. Instead, women have been systematically put at a disadvantage by some 'thing' that goes on at law schools because of which women do not perform as well as their male counterparts. This particularity in law school is made clear by the fact that women tend to outperform men in most other types of academic environments.

@twentypercentmore - Thank you. I was worried about catching huge amounts of flak, but if we are too afraid to bring up unsavory issues, they'll go silently unopposed. This is an issue that really needs to be addressed.

User avatar
Dr. Dre
Posts: 2347
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:10 pm

Re: Employment by Gender the

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri May 17, 2013 12:54 pm

oaken wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Employment by Gender the


lol




Return to “Law School FAQ”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest