Tamahana on professor pay

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romothesavior
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby romothesavior » Fri May 03, 2013 10:44 pm

bk1 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:That's pretty fair (though obviously there's more of spectrum when it comes to law schools and their placement ability)--I think a lot of law professors can be pretty clueless on what the cost of education now is and how bad the job prospects can be. Spreading this information has value in showing how predatory law schools can be.

Yeah I think it's a bit different than other industries where the knowledge and profit goes hand in hand, whereas here profs profit but don't have the knowledge (they are just intentionally ignorant) and admin staff have the knowledge but don't profit (as much).

They aren't ignorant anymore, and honestly, they've had constructive notice for a while.

Great article.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby Doorkeeper » Fri May 03, 2013 10:50 pm

Kronk wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:
Kronk wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:No one goes into law teaching for the salary.


Nope. They go in for the salary and the incredibly relaxed QOL that isn't available in practice.

I mean I worked with fed gov lawyers pulling in $120-150,000 and they were working straight 9-5pm. It's not unheard of outside of biglawl. It's the independence that matters.


Federal government jobs are about as awesome and cushy as jobs in academia, yep. Those jobs are pretty rare unless you work for the SEC though.

The difference is that a lot of people go straight into academia and never leave. You generally have to earn your $120-150k salary in the fed government over 10 years or so, and it never goes far above that. Like I said a few posts above, there are probably a dozen professors at Boalt that make over $280-300k, with a few in the $350-400k range. You'll never make that kind of cash with the government. The highest paid federal government worker that has probably worked in an agency for 15 years makes as much as a well-paid practicing lawyer or the bottom-of-the-barrel first year law professor.

I completely agree with you that federal government lawyers get underpaid at the bottom and top. This being said, once an academic is pulling in $300k+ at Boalt, that faculty member is often a world expert in the area of law in which they specialize. Many work on a number of different issues that are also outside academia - serving on state and federal advisory boards, informally advising government agencies, serving on ABA/ALI and other professional capacities, and helping the litigation strategy for select cases they're interested in.

For an example at Berkeley, I have absolutely no qualms with Paul Schwartz making $239,000. The real problem is when old academics stop being productive and get a full salary while doing the bare minimum.

You can see how much all of your faculty makes here: http://www.collegiatetimes.com/database ... a-berkeley . I think the highest salary is $308k.
Last edited by Doorkeeper on Fri May 03, 2013 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lukertin
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby lukertin » Fri May 03, 2013 11:03 pm

I don't think the average law professor salary is that high. I'm sure there's a few heavy-hitters pulling in large hundred grands but is that indicative of what they all make? Doubtful. 150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

Given the choice between that and the federal gov't, which will pay about the same, I'd take the federal government--their benefits are much better.

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Kronk
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby Kronk » Fri May 03, 2013 11:06 pm

lukertin wrote:I don't think the average law professor salary is that high. I'm sure there's a few heavy-hitters pulling in large hundred grands but is that indicative of what they all make? Doubtful. 150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

Given the choice between that and the federal gov't, which will pay about the same, I'd take the federal government--their benefits are much better.


Like I said, difference being you'd have to work (and work well) 15 years to make that in the government whereas law schools hire 27 year holds straight out of JD/PhD programs that have never practiced. Not sure how much better the benefits compared to some schools or how much money would be necessary to make up the difference.

lukertin
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby lukertin » Fri May 03, 2013 11:08 pm

Kronk wrote:Like I said, difference being you'd have to work (and work well) 15 years to make that in the government whereas law schools hire 27 year holds straight out of JD/PhD programs that have never practiced. Not sure how much better the benefits compared to some schools or how much money would be necessary to make up the difference.

Depends on your department. Where I used to work, you could pull be pulling 120k within 5 years.

Also, benefits:

best healthcare options
free pension at retirement, on top of the best 401k in the world
too lazy to go into work? just stay at home
exceedingly high vacation time (5 weeks a year, that doesn't include sick time)

rad lulz
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby rad lulz » Fri May 03, 2013 11:13 pm

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kronk
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby Kronk » Fri May 03, 2013 11:19 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:You can see how much all of your faculty makes here: http://www.collegiatetimes.com/database ... a-berkeley . I think the highest salary is $308k.


Nah. ATL released the 2011 numbers.

Alan Auerbach makes 423K. Daniel Farber makes 395K. Somewhere around 15 make more than 300K and a huge number make more than 250K.

http://abovethelaw.com/2013/04/how-much ... w-edition/

ETA: Also on the site you linked, if you search for the law professors you'll see that there are plenty more than 308K even in 2008. Farber made 351 that year and Auerbach 360k.
Last edited by Kronk on Fri May 03, 2013 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby Mick Haller » Fri May 03, 2013 11:20 pm

lukertin wrote:I don't think the average law professor salary is that high. I'm sure there's a few heavy-hitters pulling in large hundred grands but is that indicative of what they all make? Doubtful. 150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

Given the choice between that and the federal gov't, which will pay about the same, I'd take the federal government--their benefits are much better.


150k, yes, but each law school has too many professors. today each one teaches 1-2 classes a semester, with regular sabatticals. 20 years ago, they were teaching 3-5 classes a semester. it adds up. someone cited an article saying that over half of law schools' budgets are professor salaries. if you want to cut tuition, the best way may not even be reducing prof salaries, just reducing faculty size.

but faculty:student ratio and USNWR!!!! :roll:

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dr123
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby dr123 » Fri May 03, 2013 11:29 pm

I'd be more considered with administrators pay, since they do literally nothing.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri May 03, 2013 11:42 pm

it's all hypocrisy, everything. self-interest almost always prevails. it's what guides human behavior. this is why communism is always a terrible idea in practice.

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bk1
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby bk1 » Fri May 03, 2013 11:45 pm

lukertin wrote:150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

I don't see how they deserve even 150k.

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crazycanuck
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby crazycanuck » Sat May 04, 2013 12:18 am

dr123 wrote:I'd be more considered with administrators pay, since they do literally nothing.


Yeah admin costs are RIDICULOUS at schools for a lot of people who actually don't do anything. 3 people who do the job that 1 person could do doing normal 9-5 hours.

rad lulz
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby rad lulz » Sat May 04, 2013 12:19 am

bk1 wrote:
lukertin wrote:150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

I don't see how they deserve even 150k.

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IAFG
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby IAFG » Sat May 04, 2013 12:39 am

rad lulz wrote:
bk1 wrote:
lukertin wrote:150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

I don't see how they deserve even 150k.

I usually agree with you guys, but not on this. I assumed profs made a lot more.

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Kronk
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby Kronk » Sat May 04, 2013 12:41 am

IAFG wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
bk1 wrote:
lukertin wrote:150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

I don't see how they deserve even 150k.

I usually agree with you guys, but not on this. I assumed profs made a lot more.


They do at top schools. Berkeley average is probably like 240-50k.

rad lulz
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby rad lulz » Sat May 04, 2013 12:43 am

IAFG wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
bk1 wrote:
lukertin wrote:150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

I don't see how they deserve even 150k.

I usually agree with you guys, but not on this. I assumed profs made a lot more.

Let's force lawl skoolz to guarantee their students' loans and then we can see how much those profs are actually worth

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dr123
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby dr123 » Sat May 04, 2013 12:56 am

crazycanuck wrote:
dr123 wrote:I'd be more considered with administrators pay, since they do literally nothing.


Yeah admin costs are RIDICULOUS at schools for a lot of people who actually don't do anything. 3 people who do the job that 1 person could do doing normal 9-5 hours.


Yep. Professors' salaries arent really that bad, compared to the rest of the shit going on in higher ed.


edit- look at this person at berkeley

Linda Morris Williams ADMIN/COORD/OFFICER(FUNC AREA) $300,603 2008

wtf is this shit?

edit 2: LOL

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Seve ... 183821.php

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romothesavior
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby romothesavior » Sun May 05, 2013 9:52 am

IAFG wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
bk1 wrote:
lukertin wrote:150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

I don't see how they deserve even 150k.

I usually agree with you guys, but not on this. I assumed profs made a lot more.

After a few years and a few shitawful articles they do.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby Blessedassurance » Sun May 05, 2013 8:24 pm

i don't understand why people shit on unions but not the concept of tenure

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IAFG
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby IAFG » Sun May 05, 2013 8:39 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:i don't understand why people shit on unions but not the concept of tenure


I would guess there's a lot of overlap in the people shitting on both.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Mon May 06, 2013 12:12 am

Blessedassurance wrote:i don't understand why people shit on unions but not the concept of tenure

Loooooooooooooots of people shit on the concept of tenure.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon May 06, 2013 12:40 am

bk1 wrote:
lukertin wrote:150k is probably average throughout the entire industry.

I don't see how they deserve even 150k.


I don't know what you mean by "deserve." They make what the market allows them to. Unfortunately, it's not an open market because 1) 22 year-olds continue to make objectively dumb decisions and drop 200k on law school and 2) the government artificially props up those bad decisions. The core of this problem can pretty much be summed up by the fact that tuition is the same at Harvard as at, say, Pepperdine. And the endless stream of lemmings keep paying it.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby prezidentv8 » Mon May 06, 2013 12:53 am

dr123 wrote:
crazycanuck wrote:
dr123 wrote:I'd be more considered with administrators pay, since they do literally nothing.


Yeah admin costs are RIDICULOUS at schools for a lot of people who actually don't do anything. 3 people who do the job that 1 person could do doing normal 9-5 hours.


Yep. Professors' salaries arent really that bad, compared to the rest of the shit going on in higher ed.


edit- look at this person at berkeley

Linda Morris Williams ADMIN/COORD/OFFICER(FUNC AREA) $300,603 2008

wtf is this shit?

edit 2: LOL

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Seve ... 183821.php



LOL

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bk1
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby bk1 » Mon May 06, 2013 1:05 am

TatteredDignity wrote:I don't know what you mean by "deserve." They make what the market allows them to. Unfortunately, it's not an open market because 1) 22 year-olds continue to make objectively dumb decisions and drop 200k on law school and 2) the government artificially props up those bad decisions. The core of this problem can pretty much be summed up by the fact that tuition is the same at Harvard as at, say, Pepperdine. And the endless stream of lemmings keep paying it.

No shit the market allows them to make that. I am saying 2 things with the deserve comment:

1. The legal scholarship and teaching ability of the vast majority of law professors is not worth 150k. Their scholarship is for the most part pointless and they are often quite shitty teachers.

2. Even if it was worth 150k, legal scholarship should not be subsidized on the backs of law students. Even at Harvard.

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Tamahana on professor pay

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon May 06, 2013 11:43 am

bk1 wrote:No shit the market allows them to make that. I am saying 2 things with the deserve comment:

1. The legal scholarship and teaching ability of the vast majority of law professors is not worth 150k. Their scholarship is for the most part pointless and they are often quite shitty teachers.

2. Even if it was worth 150k, legal scholarship should not be subsidized on the backs of law students. Even at Harvard.

Re 2: This is the same at all universities and all professional schools (minus possibly large medical schools and some science departments where part of a professor's salary comes from research grants). So basically you have a problem with tuition money being spent on all professors in higher education?




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