JD to teach undergrad?

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chipshoote
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JD to teach undergrad?

Postby chipshoote » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:29 am

Ive got a professor now who is a former attorney. He has no Phd, Ma, ms, etc. He now teaches some social science classes and a few philosophy classes. He was an awesome professor, but my question is: Is this something worth even looking into? I know it would probably be much cheaper to go get a phd in polisci or something else, but is this something you could fall back on if you dont want to be an attorney?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks.

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homestyle28
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby homestyle28 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:37 am

chipshoote wrote:Ive got a professor now who is a former attorney. He has no Phd, Ma, ms, etc. He now teaches some social science classes and a few philosophy classes. He was an awesome professor, but my question is: Is this something worth even looking into? I know it would probably be much cheaper to go get a phd in polisci or something else, but is this something you could fall back on if you dont want to be an attorney?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks.


J.D. to teach law/philosophy/writing courses at a community college is probably a thing. That being said, planning on academia as a fall back is unwise.

chipshoote
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby chipshoote » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:44 am

yeah ive heard the academia market is even worse than the legal market (which im not sure about), I was just curious. Anyone else have any thoughts?

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NoodleyOne
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby NoodleyOne » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:47 am

chipshoote wrote:yeah ive heard the academia market is even worse than the legal market (which im not sure about), I was just curious. Anyone else have any thoughts?

It's worse. And there is no equivalent to oci.

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Br3v
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby Br3v » Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:49 am

It's really rare an not having the PhD is going to hurt you. Leal academia and "regular" academia hiring is very different. Getting hired by a undergrad is much less structured than law school hiring.

Though its rare its not unheard of. Your best bet is going to be to target a field that overlaps a lot with law, or even an official pre-law class.

All of this comes from my conversations with people who have done the exact thing your asking about.

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North
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby North » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:10 am

I think it'd be a cool mid-career hobby to be an adjunct prof at whatever TTT UG is close to home. It's not too hard to become an adjunct. Tenure-track is where the blood bath is.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:52 am

Falling back on academia is incredibly unwise. Tenure track jobs are almost impossible to get. If you're not teaching law, you will be expected to have a subject matter MA or PhD. It isn't that hard to get an adjunct position (although again, if it's not law, you will generally need an advanced degree in the subject), but it's not a good way to make a living unless you're independently wealthy or have a rich spouse. Adjuncts generally get paid around $2000/course for topics like philosophy or poli sci, and don't get benefits. (This is less true if you can swing a full-time position - there are FT non-tenure track positions in some places, but you'd have to compete with MAs/PhDs with teaching experience to get them). If you're teaching in a law school you're probably paid a bit more, but you won't get a full time position without going to HYS or the like and gunning for academia (top clerkships, write law review articles. Basically, if you're in a position to get a legal academic job (which is really tough even for those people) you don't need to do it as a fallback.

This also ignores the fact that adjuncts are very much second class citizens in academia.

How old is your professor, how long has he been teaching these courses, and what kind of an institution is it? There are lots of ways people used to get these jobs that just don't work any more.

jwinaz
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby jwinaz » Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:31 pm

http://articles.businessinsider.com/201 ... stamps-phd

I've thought about a Ph.D. or other path to teaching college as well.

A lot of the articles that keep coming up on Google searches of Ph.D./academic job market....turn up a guy by the name of Tony Yang. It's almost as if he's become the poster boy for the dark side of the academic job market (adjuncts in particular).

Even with an adjunct position, it seems many wind up on food stamps and welfare.

I guess the pay is that low and it's very rare to move from there to a tenure-track position. I wonder if adjuncting has a similar stigma in academia as doc review? It seems these are mostly dead-end paths.

Although, I think academia may allow a person a possible home-run path into a tenure-track job if you're able to publish something of significance irregardless of whether yhou're an adjunct or not. If you can find time to do research (which I think would be a problem) while adjuncting and surviving on that salary, then you could potentially get your name out there with a significant publication and earn/merit your way back into the tenure-track world. Academia ultimately values merit (at least in hard science/STEM fields) and those who can prove their worth can still be given a shot.

Whereas I'm not sure that you can go from doc review or small law into biglaw no matter how well you perform.

If you're some genius (or simply hardworking) mathematician, for example, and for whatever reason ended up off the tenure track, but you can come up with a proof of some significant problem, then you may be able to work your way back into academia. People will recognize your proof and talent.

....Sorry for a bit of rambling....

I'm still looking into a possible Ph.D. route or joint-Ph.D./JD thing, but don't know if either is ultimately worth it for me personally (I'm already a few yhears out of UG and working in a decent job).

As an aside, I am taking some non-degree courses at my local univ. and I ahve met one adjunct who has six different teaching courses this semester. He teaches at different institutions. That scared me frankly. It'd hate having to run around from one community college to another and then to a normal four-year school (ltos of driving....different types of students and culture......). That sounded possibly worse than doc review.

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scruffy556
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby scruffy556 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:42 pm

I was told by the dean of my college of arts and crafts that I would be welcome to return to my UG as an adjunct if I struck out at finding a legal job following my JD.

It's a thing I guess, I don't know if being an adjunct is preferable to shitlaw though.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:26 pm

scruffy556 wrote:I was told by the dean of my college of arts and crafts that I would be welcome to return to my UG as an adjunct if I struck out at finding a legal job following my JD.

It's a thing I guess, I don't know if being an adjunct is preferable to shitlaw though.

Arts and crafts? Like, requiring actual skills? Any field that's based on practice skills (art, music, journalism, accounting, welding, that kind of thing) is a lot easier to get a job in than something more (for lack of a better word) academic.

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sawwaverunner
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby sawwaverunner » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:39 pm

Adjuncts unfortunately only make about 2.5k tops per 3 credit class. It's awesome to supplement a job, but not to live off.

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scruffy556
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby scruffy556 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:43 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
scruffy556 wrote:I was told by the dean of my college of arts and crafts that I would be welcome to return to my UG as an adjunct if I struck out at finding a legal job following my JD.

It's a thing I guess, I don't know if being an adjunct is preferable to shitlaw though.

Arts and crafts? Like, requiring actual skills? Any field that's based on practice skills (art, music, journalism, accounting, welding, that kind of thing) is a lot easier to get a job in than something more (for lack of a better word) academic.


I meant as in arts and sciences, If I did it I would be going back to teach poli sci.

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scruffy556
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby scruffy556 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:44 pm

sawwaverunner wrote:Adjuncts unfortunately only make about 2.5k tops per 3 credit class. It's awesome to supplement a job, but not to live off.


I knew it wasn't much, didnt realize it was that bad.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:47 pm

It sounds like a good way for a solo to supplement his or her income. I have been thinking about this a lot lately. If a solo taught 2 or 3 undergrad classes and did LSAT tutoring on the side, they could probably survive. Some people probably could also have an additional side hustle like document review.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:52 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:It sounds like a good way for a solo to supplement his or her income. I have been thinking about this a lot lately. If a solo taught 2 or 3 undergrad classes and did LSAT tutoring on the side, they could probably survive. Some people probably could also have an additional side hustle like document review.

Have you ever taught undergrad courses? It's not actually that easy.

chipshoote
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby chipshoote » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:01 pm

Thanks for all of your responses guys, this is really helpful. this teacher makes $3500 per class... All of our states public records have been released (including salaries). he has been teaching these classes for like 20 years though. I'm sure it was ALOT easier then to get a job. He also does happen to be the assistant to the attorney general. So, I suppose alot of factors could come into how he got the job. I was just curious on how this could look as a possible fallback (and from the general consensus, its not a great idea). However, I would like to look into it as a side job because I think it would be somewhat interesting to teach.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:02 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:It sounds like a good way for a solo to supplement his or her income. I have been thinking about this a lot lately. If a solo taught 2 or 3 undergrad classes and did LSAT tutoring on the side, they could probably survive. Some people probably could also have an additional side hustle like document review.

Have you ever taught undergrad courses? It's not actually that easy.


Nothing related to work is easy or fun, but that is why it pays money. I have tutored before and it seems like a good way to make some money on the side.

kyle010723
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Re: JD to teach undergrad?

Postby kyle010723 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:02 am

My UG's Con Law professor got a JD from UChicago just so he has a better understanding on law and can do legal research. Did not even take the bar exam.

That being said, he also had a Ph.D in Poli Sci before he went to law school. So I am not sure if he landed his professorship because of the Ph.D or the J.D., I'd say it was probably because of the Ph.D and J.D. certainly did not hurt.

Anyway, the moral of the story is unless you have a Ph.D, major universities probably would not hire you. You can always teach in law schools, but you asked about UG.




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