Is this true?

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ArchieHicox
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Is this true?

Postby ArchieHicox » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:02 am

Read a few comments on another site and wants some perspective. I know TLS can be gloom and doom, but this is on a level I've really never seen before. Is this guy the norm, or just exceptionally, exceptionally bitter. Not looking for an easy answer or soothing answer... just legitimately curious.

Go to the highest ranked law school. But, be warned: When you graduate law school, you do not get to choose what you want to do. When you find anything at all that pays in U.S. dollars, you are grateful and beg for more, hear me?


But, you have to know: That attorney jobs are scarce; most attorney jobs pay under $40k a year with or without benefits if you find that job; that the only high paying jobs are generally given to Top 14 law grads or to those well-connected; and that most law grads do not get to choose their field of practice - rather, they are thankful to handle any DUI case that comes their way, even after several years in practice.


Top 14 law or bust. Seriously, this profession doesn't pay jack %&#@ unless you go to a Top 14 or have some high power connections. If you still want to do this knowing you will average $45k for the rest of your career, working 60+ hours a week, then go for it.

valrath
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Re: Is this true?

Postby valrath » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:24 am

Sounds like an overly pessimistic 0L trying to scare people. I'd take it with a grain of salt.

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mephistopheles
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Re: Is this true?

Postby mephistopheles » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:25 am

obligatory "but see: inside the law school scam" post.

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cinephile
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Re: Is this true?

Postby cinephile » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:27 am

valrath wrote:Sounds like an overly pessimistic 0L trying to scare people. I'd take it with a grain of salt.


hahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa

Yes, just 0Ls trying to scare one another. No truth at all. There's more than enough jobs for everyone who wants one. Go to a school outside the T14 and come away with a 6 figure job, guaranteed.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Is this true?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:00 am

valrath wrote:Sounds like an overly pessimistic 0L trying to scare people. I'd take it with a grain of salt.


It generalizes a bit, but it's more true than not. (Though, the advice of just go to the highest ranked school is flawed--a person should go to a school that places well in the area they want to work and they should try to limit debt.) And it sounds much more like a person who went to a TTT and doesn't have a legal job.

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ragelion
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Re: Is this true?

Postby ragelion » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:01 am

lol how are people still going to law school?

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mlansky
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Re: Is this true?

Postby mlansky » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:02 am

The best way to avoid getting sucked into an exaggeration contest with this one is to just do your homework. Go to lawschooltransparency, search TLS for law school scam (I can't imagine how many threads there are about this here), that sort of thing...

There are lots of bitter people talking about this, but when someone marinates their point in sarcasm or caustic wit, it usually has more to do with the paths their own lives have taken than with the situation you're actually interested in, so just find the people who are talking calmly about specific figures and ignore the rest...

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ArchieHicox
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Re: Is this true?

Postby ArchieHicox » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:17 am

I should clarify that I'm not at all suggesting the legal market is booming or things are easy. But that level of negativity is something I've never ever seen. 45k career average if you aren't T-14? You accept DUI cases and beg for more? There is a certain ugliness to the posting that was really depressing.

I feel like I've done my research and personally for myself, the choice I will make will end up being either a local school on full tuition or a strong regional school at a very reasonable price. I've done my research on LST and similar sites and I'm confident in that I am taking a calculate risk. But I think its the right decision for me.

I just don't know how to react or respond to someone that is this bitter and angry.... its like the rantings of a Yahoo News commentator. I know there is some truth but T-14 or bust.... its a little ridiculous. I'm from Omaha, how does that T-14 or bust theory work? Because there are people from regional schools getting jobs that make more than 45k a year... certainly not everyone but a % do. You can't assume you will be that % but he is denying that that % even exist.

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ArchieHicox
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Re: Is this true?

Postby ArchieHicox » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:20 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:And it sounds much more like a person who went to a TTT and doesn't have a legal job.


I don't know much about his/her background. Not from TLS fwiw, and the only comments I could find were that they took 1.5 years to pass the bar and find a job. And these rantings. As to where they went, don't know.

But in my mind, if this guy paid full tuition at a TTT... then why is he giving anyone advice? That sort of stupidity is on you, not on the system.

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mlansky
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Re: Is this true?

Postby mlansky » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:31 am

ha-ri wrote:I don't know much about his/her background. Not from TLS fwiw, and the only comments I could find were that they took 1.5 years to pass the bar and find a job.


There you go, OP, you solved your own mystery.

rad lulz
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Re: Is this true?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:17 am

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Is this true?

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:21 am

rad lulz wrote:
ha-ri wrote:But in my mind, if this guy paid full tuition at a TTT... then why is he giving anyone advice

I'll let you think about this for a second before I make a snarky comment


lolz

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ArchieHicox
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Re: Is this true?

Postby ArchieHicox » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:33 am

rad lulz wrote:
ha-ri wrote:But in my mind, if this guy paid full tuition at a TTT... then why is he giving anyone advice

I'll let you think about this for a second before I make a snarky comment


Fair point... I guess he knows first hand,

But he should have known better from the start... wouldn't you agree with that? Its not like there was a gun to his head saying go to New England School of Law or Suffolk Law at sticker. His ignorance and stupidity is not everyone's.

rad lulz
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Re: Is this true?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:53 am

,
Last edited by rad lulz on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

09042014
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Re: Is this true?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:56 am

ha-ri wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:And it sounds much more like a person who went to a TTT and doesn't have a legal job.


I don't know much about his/her background. Not from TLS fwiw, and the only comments I could find were that they took 1.5 years to pass the bar and find a job. And these rantings. As to where they went, don't know.

But in my mind, if this guy paid full tuition at a TTT... then why is he giving anyone advice? That sort of stupidity is on you, not on the system.


Says a guy who has credentials that would send him to a TTT at best.

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ArchieHicox
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Re: Is this true?

Postby ArchieHicox » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:04 am

Desert Fox wrote:
ha-ri wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:And it sounds much more like a person who went to a TTT and doesn't have a legal job.


I don't know much about his/her background. Not from TLS fwiw, and the only comments I could find were that they took 1.5 years to pass the bar and find a job. And these rantings. As to where they went, don't know.

But in my mind, if this guy paid full tuition at a TTT... then why is he giving anyone advice? That sort of stupidity is on you, not on the system.


Says a guy who has credentials that would send him to a TTT at best.


Haha, harsh. I'm not judging him for hypothetically going to a lower ranked school... its the paying full tuition.

I'm not going to get into a name-calling game here. I was only asking for advice because I wasn't sure what to make of his claims. Not saying I am better or worse than anyone. Reasonable people can take your claim and make their own assessment (and my LSN page is linked to my page so I'm not hiding anything).

The only intention I had with this thread was to ask for more information to try to better understand these specific claims. This isn't some game or fight, and I don't understand the need to be an asshole. But hey, whatever.

Hopefully, someday I too will have 20,000 posts on a Law School Forum. What a life! :D
Last edited by ArchieHicox on Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: Is this true?

Postby NoodleyOne » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:36 am

Up until recently the data released by law schools regarding employment was often false, and there was no third party oversight. T-14 or bust was born from the increased awareness, and honestly, it's pretty true. After the t-14 and good regionals such as UT, employment prospects plummet.

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Tekrul
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Re: Is this true?

Postby Tekrul » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:51 am

Biglaw has an attrition rate that adds to the trimming process even after getting hired from the school. These drop offs usually occur at 1-2-4-8 years. With most occurring at 4. If you are not partner material, they will replace you with a first year associate. That's the business model. At this point, many people find themselves working for smaller firms for less money or going in house for ~50,000 a year. Don't believe the wonder stories of people who make general counsel at huge corporations. They're famous and well known because of how unbelievably, miraculously, insanely lucky/hard working/connected they were to land a gig like that

The government jobs have been increasingly hard to get from a point where the prestigious ones were already like getting Latham or Wachtell. An interesting post job cropped up over the sequestration causing problems with the public defenders. Pay rate and promotion schedule is largely fixed and secure here, but getting the job you want in the field you want is like winning the biggest teddy bear at the fair. You always see some girl walking around with it with her cyborg boyfriend who was able to catch 20 goldfish with his face in 15 seconds but never see anyone actually win it or win it yourself.

PI is also a fairly tough gig in itself with the prestigious jobs here coming at, IMO, even less chance than biglaw. And the level of pay here demands you be passionate about the cause....

While I think the mantra that T-14 or bust is unfair, there is a truth to it. The legal field is weak right now. Perhaps it will never return to its pre2008 strength. With lowly ranked schools in a lowly performing market, it can be disaster.

Whenever I see people saying 5-10% make it and they intend to be that person, I often think of a person from the future buying a ticket to the Titanic saying they'll be one of the few on the lifeboats. Even at 50% it's like playing Russian roulette with HALF the revolver filled with bullets and payout at six figures of debt and a ~60k paying job. Would you play that game?

Get yourself better odds than 1/2 or get it for free = T-14 or bust (except free stuff)

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Gunnar Stahl
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Re: Is this true?

Postby Gunnar Stahl » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:24 am

ha-ri wrote:Read a few comments on another site and wants some perspective. I know TLS can be gloom and doom, but this is on a level I've really never seen before. Is this guy the norm, or just exceptionally, exceptionally bitter. Not looking for an easy answer or soothing answer... just legitimately curious.

Post this on jdunderground and see what responses you get. That person is more the exception, but TLS isn't really that doom and gloom.

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typ3
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Re: Is this true?

Postby typ3 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:11 pm

ha-ri wrote:Read a few comments on another site and wants some perspective. I know TLS can be gloom and doom, but this is on a level I've really never seen before. Is this guy the norm, or just exceptionally, exceptionally bitter. Not looking for an easy answer or soothing answer... just legitimately curious.

Go to the highest ranked law school. But, be warned: When you graduate law school, you do not get to choose what you want to do. When you find anything at all that pays in U.S. dollars, you are grateful and beg for more, hear me?


But, you have to know: That attorney jobs are scarce; most attorney jobs pay under $40k a year with or without benefits if you find that job; that the only high paying jobs are generally given to Top 14 law grads or to those well-connected; and that most law grads do not get to choose their field of practice - rather, they are thankful to handle any DUI case that comes their way, even after several years in practice.


Top 14 law or bust. Seriously, this profession doesn't pay jack %&#@ unless you go to a Top 14 or have some high power connections. If you still want to do this knowing you will average $45k for the rest of your career, working 60+ hours a week, then go for it.


Seems about right. Move to the Midwest, Iowa / SD / ND / NW Minnesota / WY and ride the oil wave. Learn how to use your hands utilities and niche service companies will pay you more for your services than you'l make as a lawyer and you'll get to work 40 hours a week and no one will expect much of you. Just saying, the guys who regulate temperature in large commercial buildings and test fire alarms make more than most lawyers at this point and it's not like those jobs require tons of education. ::whistles::

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Barack O'Drama
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Re: Is this true?

Postby Barack O'Drama » Sat Apr 20, 2013 3:55 pm

cinephile wrote:
valrath wrote:Sounds like an overly pessimistic 0L trying to scare people. I'd take it with a grain of salt.


hahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaa

Yes, just 0Ls trying to scare one another. No truth at all. There's more than enough jobs for everyone who wants one. Go to a school outside the T14 and come away with a 6 figure job, guaranteed.


Hahaha

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Is this true?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:13 pm

Does anyone have a link for pre-crash placement from the top 50 or so schools?

sainthawk29
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Re: Is this true?

Postby sainthawk29 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:22 pm

I find that doom and gloom posters focus their experiences on BigLaw. If you want to work in BigLaw, Yes T14 is helpful.

Remember, that even 30 percent of Cooley graduates (not to bash on Cooley) have jobs coming out of school. If you work hard and graduate in the top half of any school, you will most likely have a job after school, or close to it. It all depends on what you want to do, and more importantly where you want to practice. If you want to practice family law in Nebraska, there is no reason to go to a T14 (unless you really want to).

rad lulz
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Re: Is this true?

Postby rad lulz » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:42 pm

sainthawk29 wrote:I find that doom and gloom posters focus their experiences on BigLaw. If you want to work in BigLaw, Yes T14 is helpful.

Remember, that even 30 percent of Cooley graduates (not to bash on Cooley) have jobs coming out of school. If you work hard and graduate in the top half of any school, you will most likely have a job after school, or close to it. It all depends on what you want to do, and more importantly where you want to practice. If you want to practice family law in Nebraska, there is no reason to go to a T14 (unless you really want to).

lol

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CaptainLeela
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Re: Is this true?

Postby CaptainLeela » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:51 pm

rad lulz wrote:
sainthawk29 wrote:I find that doom and gloom posters focus their experiences on BigLaw. If you want to work in BigLaw, Yes T14 is helpful.

Remember, that even 30 percent of Cooley graduates (not to bash on Cooley) have jobs coming out of school. If you work hard and graduate in the top half of any school, you will most likely have a job after school, or close to it. It all depends on what you want to do, and more importantly where you want to practice. If you want to practice family law in Nebraska, there is no reason to go to a T14 (unless you really want to).

lol


I'm just going to say that I recently had a conversation with the partners at the firm I work at as a paralegal which is small (less than 15 attorneys) thathandles estates and probate who decided AGAINST hiring the #1 student in the graduating class from a regional tertiary market's TTTT because they didn't want someone from "that school" working here. This attitude is not uncommon by any means.

This kid is a 3L less than a month from graduation who is being turned down from positions all over the state, #1 in his class. I'm thinking you don't really know what you're talking about.




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