What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:48 pm

cinephile wrote:
banjo wrote:I'll stand by what I said in another thread: PhDs in the humanities are an infinitely worse idea than a T14 JD. You might not have to deal with debt, but you'll lose 6-9 years of your twenties with abysmal job prospects. A PhD in biostatistics is probably a different story, though.


Disagree. If you're clever about it, you should get your PhD done in 4 years. That's nothing if you're debt free.

But I'll tell a story since I'm here. A friend of mine has a PhD in mathematics from an unprestigious state school, and he's currently employed as an adjunct there. He's been looking for two years for anything else, but no one wants a pure math PhD, there are no practical applications for him. So now he's looking into teaching high school. Which is actually pretty decent if he finds a job in a public school, and of course he has no debt.

Ph.D.s in the humanities are not like Ph.D.s in STEM or social sciences. As of 2009, according to data collected by the Council of Graduate Schools, by the end of the sixth year of a Ph.D. program, 48.8 percent of entering cohorts in engineering have earned a doctorate, compared to 39.3 percent in math and physical sciences, 31.1 percent in the social sciences, and only 19.6 percent in the humanities. By the end of year eight, the percentages having earned a doctorate top 60 in engineering and the life sciences, but only hit 36.7 percent for the humanities. (http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/10/12/doctoral)

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby jwinaz » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:07 am

cinephile wrote:
banjo wrote:I'll stand by what I said in another thread: PhDs in the humanities are an infinitely worse idea than a T14 JD. You might not have to deal with debt, but you'll lose 6-9 years of your twenties with abysmal job prospects. A PhD in biostatistics is probably a different story, though.


Disagree. If you're clever about it, you should get your PhD done in 4 years. That's nothing if you're debt free.

But I'll tell a story since I'm here. A friend of mine has a PhD in mathematics from an unprestigious state school, and he's currently employed as an adjunct there. He's been looking for two years for anything else, but no one wants a pure math PhD, there are no practical applications for him. So now he's looking into teaching high school. Which is actually pretty decent if he finds a job in a public school, and of course he has no debt.


4 years would be a rarity.

At least in the humanities and social sciences, four years is quite rare. Consider that you take two years worth of coursework minimum. From there, you draft a research prospectus that often requires reviewing the past X years of all the scholarly work in that specialty and then go out and conduct your research (sometimes having to teach to support yourself too). ...My friend with a humanties type of Ph.D. had to do field work in South America to do data collection for his ethnographic research. That was at least a year. After he did gathered all his data from his research, he still needed to analyze it and write it up (another 1 to 1.5 years).

I think if a person enters a Ph.D. program with a master's already or if they're super smart and can fly through the coursework requirements in a shorter amount of time, then they may have a shot at four years. They'd have to be very efficient, hardworking, and know exactly what they want t odo. My friend took at least two years (AFTER his coursework) to just figure out a project to pursue. ....Although to be fair, he had problems. He hated his work. lol. And he said that the advisors he had weren't very supportive. So he wasted a couple of years reviewing the literature trying to find a project area he could contribute original research in. Some people can fly through the lit. review phase while doing their coursework and not have to spend extra time doing that part. Those are people who are both very smart and passionate. They were practically born to be Ph.D.s/professors. But they also are smart and efficient with their time. My friend, however, wasn't very efficient and wasn't that passionate about his Ph.D. He sort of fell into without much thought and has since been looking to teach middle or high school becasuse his dissertation wasn't that great and he had one mediocre publication. His overall time frame was more like:

Year 1: classes
Year 2: classes and pass field/candidate exams
Year 3: teaching UG's while doing lit. review
Year 4: teaching UG's while doing lit. review
Year 5: teaching UG's while having a personal crisis and fighting with his advisors and doing lit review and drafting his research prospectus
Year 6: goto South America and do ethnographic research
Year 7: analyze data and write it up
Year 7.5: analyze data and write it up and defend dissertation.

or something close to the above. ....I know he took probably a year or two longer, due to indecisiveness and burnout.

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banjo
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby banjo » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:27 am

cinephile wrote:
banjo wrote:I'll stand by what I said in another thread: PhDs in the humanities are an infinitely worse idea than a T14 JD. You might not have to deal with debt, but you'll lose 6-9 years of your twenties with abysmal job prospects. A PhD in biostatistics is probably a different story, though.


Disagree. If you're clever about it, you should get your PhD done in 4 years. That's nothing if you're debt free.

But I'll tell a story since I'm here. A friend of mine has a PhD in mathematics from an unprestigious state school, and he's currently employed as an adjunct there. He's been looking for two years for anything else, but no one wants a pure math PhD, there are no practical applications for him. So now he's looking into teaching high school. Which is actually pretty decent if he finds a job in a public school, and of course he has no debt.


Four years is not enough time to complete a PhD in a humanities field. Even five would be considered fairly quick. Again, though, if you would be happy being a modestly paid school teacher, it's probably not a terrible option.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:42 am

LOL at teaching high school being a PhD fallback. Guess what bros, you can teach high school with a BA/BS in anything. And the JD probably counts for the PhD bonus.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby scifiguy » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:42 am

Desert Fox wrote:LOL at teaching high school being a PhD fallback. Guess what bros, you can teach high school with a BA/BS in anything. And the JD probably counts for the PhD bonus.


I don't think this is true. At least not right away.

I do believe all schools require at least a Master's in Ed. or a Ph.D.....or teaching certificate.

It's at least one extra year for most people post-BA/BS. The Ph.D. can override that oftentimes. You can jump in and teach w/o getting the teaching credential stuff (I think).

Also, I dunno....suppose a JD did go and get a teaching credential. I kind of still think that a school distrct would hire a Ph.D. in X,Y, Z subject ....oet's just say Biology .....to teach biology over a JD (with a bio UG). The Ph.D. sounds more academic/teaching oriented and so is the training probably. JD's won't seem to have much of an advantage over others in being a high school teacher. THey might even think you'd be a bad fit. I dunno though. The Ph.D.. would have a more natural fit to teach given teh training. P lus meaning Ph.D.s do teach UGs as part of their graduate school experience and so they'd already having teaching exp. under their belt.

The main reason, however, that the PH.D. ----> HS teaching route is possibly better than the JD---> HS teaching route is that the Ph.D. has no debt usually.

09042014
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:46 am

scifiguy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:LOL at teaching high school being a PhD fallback. Guess what bros, you can teach high school with a BA/BS in anything. And the JD probably counts for the PhD bonus.


I don't think this is true. At least not right away.

I do believe all schools require at least a Master's in Ed. or a Ph.D.....or teaching certificate.

It's at least one extra year for most people post-BA/BS. The Ph.D. can override that oftentimes. You can jump in and teach w/o getting the teaching credential stuff (I think).

Also, I dunno....suppose a JD did go and get a teaching credential. I kind of still think that a school distrct would hire a Ph.D. in X,Y, Z subject ....oet's just say Biology .....to teach biology over a JD (with a bio UG). The Ph.D. sounds more academic/teaching oriented and so is the training probably. JD's won't seem to have much of an advantage over others in being a high school teacher. THey might even think you'd be a bad fit. I dunno though.

The main reason, however, that the PH.D. ----> HS teaching route is possibly better than the JD---> HS teaching route is that the Ph.D. has no debt usually.


You can't teach in a public school in America with a Phd without a teaching cert. M.Ed is just a fancy way of getting a cert.

Though I think there are exceptions. Like teaching math and science in poor areas.

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banjo
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby banjo » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:16 am

scifiguy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:LOL at teaching high school being a PhD fallback. Guess what bros, you can teach high school with a BA/BS in anything. And the JD probably counts for the PhD bonus.


I don't think this is true. At least not right away.

I do believe all schools require at least a Master's in Ed. or a Ph.D.....or teaching certificate.

It's at least one extra year for most people post-BA/BS. The Ph.D. can override that oftentimes. You can jump in and teach w/o getting the teaching credential stuff (I think).

Also, I dunno....suppose a JD did go and get a teaching credential. I kind of still think that a school distrct would hire a Ph.D. in X,Y, Z subject ....oet's just say Biology .....to teach biology over a JD (with a bio UG). The Ph.D. sounds more academic/teaching oriented and so is the training probably. JD's won't seem to have much of an advantage over others in being a high school teacher. THey might even think you'd be a bad fit. I dunno though. The Ph.D.. would have a more natural fit to teach given teh training. P lus meaning Ph.D.s do teach UGs as part of their graduate school experience and so they'd already having teaching exp. under their belt.

The main reason, however, that the PH.D. ----> HS teaching route is possibly better than the JD---> HS teaching route is that the Ph.D. has no debt usually.


People who are getting into PhD programs with fellowships could probably snag a full ride at an okay law school. They'll still have COL debt, but they'll have saved some time. Maybe they could try getting a teaching certification and teach government or social studies somewhere. Not sure.

Still, if you're really passionate about Spanish or whatever, spending 6 years in a graduate spanish program and teaching high school spanish might not be a terrible life outcome for you. If that's all I wanted out of my career, I could try to become a full time LSAT/SAT/GRE instructor. Great students, flexible hours, decent pay. But I, and I suspect most people on this site, want more than that.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby Aristophanes » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:27 am

scifiguy wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, it varies a lot by field. I feel pretty comfortable saying, though, that the shit shit shit market for humanities Ph.D.s is way shittier than the market for JDs.


I dunno.

Cooley JD versus Montana State U. Ph.D. in Film Studies. Would one really have better job prospects?


Here's what Ph.D.s in my field (from humanities) have to face on the job market if they want to teach at a 4-year college or university:

October/November
-send out applications for the 30-40 jobs nationwide that fit your specific teaching/research interests, whether they're tenure-track or not (even if these jobs are in places where you don't want to live)
-each of these jobs receives anywhere from 100 to 200 applications

January
-interview for one of the above jobs at the big annual convention
-15 to 20 people are selected for interviews for each of these jobs (out of the 100 to 200 applicants for each job)

February/March
-do a campus visit/interview for one of the jobs for which you did a convention interview
-3 to 4 people are selected for campus visits/interviews (out of the 15 to 20 people who did convention interviews)

April/May
-receive an offer and accept it
-otherwise, start the cycle all over again during the next academic year (and this is what a lot of people have to do)

I felt like I won the lottery when I landed that tenure-track job the second year I was on the market.

What do you all think--is the J.D. market better or worse than mine?

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby dextermorgan » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:40 am

Realizing that history PhD's (lol) have a better chance of landing jobs than a JD is pretty depressing.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby Void » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:04 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
scifiguy wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:LOL at teaching high school being a PhD fallback. Guess what bros, you can teach high school with a BA/BS in anything. And the JD probably counts for the PhD bonus.


I don't think this is true. At least not right away.

I do believe all schools require at least a Master's in Ed. or a Ph.D.....or teaching certificate.

It's at least one extra year for most people post-BA/BS. The Ph.D. can override that oftentimes. You can jump in and teach w/o getting the teaching credential stuff (I think).

Also, I dunno....suppose a JD did go and get a teaching credential. I kind of still think that a school distrct would hire a Ph.D. in X,Y, Z subject ....oet's just say Biology .....to teach biology over a JD (with a bio UG). The Ph.D. sounds more academic/teaching oriented and so is the training probably. JD's won't seem to have much of an advantage over others in being a high school teacher. THey might even think you'd be a bad fit. I dunno though.

The main reason, however, that the PH.D. ----> HS teaching route is possibly better than the JD---> HS teaching route is that the Ph.D. has no debt usually.


You can't teach in a public school in America with a Phd without a teaching cert. M.Ed is just a fancy way of getting a cert.

Though I think there are exceptions. Like teaching math and science in poor areas.


This is true. There was also some discussion in this thread about the wualifications neccessary to teach in a private school. Private schools can hire whomever they want. Typically you only need a B.A. to meet the minimum qualifications set by the school, but a masters makes you more competitive. I havent seen many PhD private school teachers but I imagine it could help. The point is:

Public school: teaching cert required
Private school: no standardized requirements; BA usually the minimum

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:32 pm

dextermorgan wrote:Realizing that history PhD's (lol) have a better chance of landing jobs than a JD is pretty depressing.

What? no. fucking no.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:36 pm

Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:40 pm

john7234797 wrote:Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?

I had a high school teacher with an MA (subject matter, not teaching certification), but none that I know of that had Ph.D.s. I have three friends with Ph.D.s who teach private school (English and history), and one who used to (history).

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby haus » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:19 pm

john7234797 wrote:Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?

I had two high school teachers with PhDs that I can think of off the top of my head, although I have been out of HS for quite some time, so I may be forgetting some.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:21 pm

john7234797 wrote:Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?


Nope. Well, the Gym Class Department Coordinator got some TTT online Ph.Ed degree and us call him Doctor.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:36 pm

Just to add, I DID have a history teacher who had a Harvard Law Degree..

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby spleenworship » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:48 pm

john7234797 wrote:Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?


I had one (1) at a private school. And we all knew he was wasting his life there.

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banjo
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby banjo » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:59 pm

My English teacher had a PhD. Took her ten years to finish. Her diss was some feminist literary theory gibberish.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby sublime » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:03 pm

..

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby HankBashir » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:09 pm

john7234797 wrote:Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?


There wre two in my school, with only one remaining by the time I graduated. One was in English (I think from Princeton?), who was head of the English department until he retired. The other had a PhD in Home Economics and taught Home Ec

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby jtabustos » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:30 am

HankBashir wrote:
john7234797 wrote:Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?


There wre two in my school, with only one remaining by the time I graduated. One was in English (I think from Princeton?), who was head of the English department until he retired. The other had a PhD in Home Economics and taught Home Ec


Are there really Ph.D's in home economics? I wonder if we're talking about the same thing?

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby jtabustos » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:34 am

I think there was one in my high school. I didn't take his course, but I remember hearing one of the AP English teachers may have been a PhD. But the way I remember it was that the students said he loved working with young people and didn't mind moving from college teaching to high school teaching.

Looking back, I wonder if the teacher simply could not land a college teaching position.

But, I don't think it's that uncommon to see PhDs in HS. I've had a few acquaintances up in the Bay Area teach private school with their PhD's. I don't know them well enough to ask if that was their first preference, but I kind of assumed it was more of a back-up plan.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby spleenworship » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:37 am

jtabustos wrote:
HankBashir wrote:
john7234797 wrote:Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?


There wre two in my school, with only one remaining by the time I graduated. One was in English (I think from Princeton?), who was head of the English department until he retired. The other had a PhD in Home Economics and taught Home Ec


Are there really Ph.D's in home economics? I wonder if we're talking about the same thing?



I don't know about PhDs, but my grandma got her Bachelors in Home Ec. She taught for like 30 years with it.

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dr123
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby dr123 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:46 am

spleenworship wrote:
jtabustos wrote:
HankBashir wrote:
john7234797 wrote:Did ANY of you guys have high school teachers that had Ph.D's in their field? I admit I could just be unaware but I can't think of a single one.. and I went to a pretty strong public school district. Was it different for anyone who went to private schools?


There wre two in my school, with only one remaining by the time I graduated. One was in English (I think from Princeton?), who was head of the English department until he retired. The other had a PhD in Home Economics and taught Home Ec


Are there really Ph.D's in home economics? I wonder if we're talking about the same thing?



I don't know about PhDs, but my grandma got her Bachelors in Home Ec. She taught for like 30 years with it.



Apparently Cornell used to offer a Ph.D. in Home Economics.

http://rmc.library.cornell.edu/homeEc/timeline.html

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:21 am

Now it tends to be called something like Family Social Sciences.




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