What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

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scifiguy
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What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:24 am

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/academias-wo ... d-degrees/
http://www.economist.com/node/17723223
Just curious and slightly bored at the moment.

Here are some stats/numbers from the two articles:

At a number of big-name universities – Northwestern, Brown and the University of North Carolina’s flagship campus at Chapel Hill – at least one-fourth of their 2010 history Ph.D.s are either unemployed or their fate is unknown.

At Brown University, for example, 38 percent of their 2010 Ph.D.s are in that category, compared to only 25 percent who have tenure-track appointments.

------------------------------
Indeed, the production of PhDs has far outstripped demand for university lecturers. In a recent book, Andrew Hacker and Claudia Dreifus, an academic and a journalist, report that America produced more than 100,000 doctoral degrees between 2005 and 2009. In the same period there were just 16,000 new professorships. Using PhD students to do much of the undergraduate teaching cuts the number of full-time jobs. Even in Canada, where the output of PhD graduates has grown relatively modestly, universities conferred 4,800 doctorate degrees in 2007 but hired just 2,616 new full-time professors. Only a few fast-developing countries, such as Brazil and China, now seem short of PhDs.


Also, for college grads with just the normal BA/BS:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nati ... s/1868817/

Nearly half of working Americans with college degrees are in jobs for which they're overqualified, a new study out Monday suggests.

The study, released by the non-profit Center for College Affordability and Productivity, says the trend is likely to continue for newly minted college graduates over the next decade.

"It is almost the new normal," says lead author Richard Vedder, an Ohio University economist and founder of the center, based in Washington.


This article says nearly 50% of college grads are overqualified for their jobs.
Last edited by scifiguy on Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

09042014
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:25 am

Did you just seriously link to WND. Damn your shitposting knows no bounds.

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dr123
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby dr123 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:27 am

Comparing Ph.D. to J.D. is retarded. There is so much variety within Ph.D. degrees, some are very much in demand and others are more saturated than law.

ETA: Also tenure track faculty positions arent the end-goal for every Ph.D. student.
Last edited by dr123 on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:28 am

dr123 wrote:Comparing Ph.D. to J.D. is retarded. There is so much variety within Ph.D. degrees, some are very much in demand and others are more saturated than law.


I thought that as well, but it's not true from the Economist article. Even in STEM Ph.D.'s aren't that useful for academia.

EDIT/Correction: Oops, that was for pay rather than jobs.
Last edited by scifiguy on Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:28 am

And PhD's are somewhat a job in and of themselves. Someone pays you 30K to teach a bunch of undergrads and do research.

Never do an unfunded one.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby dr123 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:30 am

scifiguy wrote:
dr123 wrote:Comparing Ph.D. to J.D. is retarded. There is so much variety within Ph.D. degrees, some are very much in demand and others are more saturated than law.


I thought that as well, but it's not true from the Economist article. Even in STEM Ph.D.'s aren't that useful for academia.


STEM Ph.D.'s are useful for a lot of other shit though. Academia isn't the endgoal for every Ph.D. student.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:32 am

dr123 wrote:
scifiguy wrote:
dr123 wrote:Comparing Ph.D. to J.D. is retarded. There is so much variety within Ph.D. degrees, some are very much in demand and others are more saturated than law.


I thought that as well, but it's not true from the Economist article. Even in STEM Ph.D.'s aren't that useful for academia.


STEM Ph.D.'s are useful for a lot of other shit though. Academia isn't the endgoal for every Ph.D. student.


I edited above...see my correction.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:35 am

Yeah, it varies a lot by field. I feel pretty comfortable saying, though, that the shit shit shit market for humanities Ph.D.s is way shittier than the market for JDs.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby Balthy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:36 am

dr123 wrote:Comparing Ph.D. to J.D. is retarded. There is so much variety within Ph.D. degrees, some are very much in demand and others are more saturated than law.

ETA: Also tenure track faculty positions arent the end-goal for every Ph.D. student.



Yeah, OP you really have to be more specific. I was interested in a Ph.D. in philosophy. Then I checked this site out (created by someone you may be familiar with): http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/perspective.asp

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:37 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, it varies a lot by field. I feel pretty comfortable saying, though, that the shit shit shit market for humanities Ph.D.s is way shittier than the market for JDs.


I dunno.

Cooley JD versus Montana State U. Ph.D. in Film Studies. Would one really have better job prospects?

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dr123
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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby dr123 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:39 am

scifiguy wrote:
A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, it varies a lot by field. I feel pretty comfortable saying, though, that the shit shit shit market for humanities Ph.D.s is way shittier than the market for JDs.


I dunno.

Cooley JD versus Montana State U. Ph.D. in Film Studies. Would one really have better job prospects?

You probably won't go into debt in a Ph.D. program though, w/ all the teaching fellowships and shit.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:39 am

There seem a good number of parallels though. You have graduate student instructors doing teaching and adjunct faculty that are like the analogues of temp/contract JDs and document review maybe.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby dr123 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:42 am

scifiguy wrote:There seem a good number of parallels though. You have graduate student instructors doing teaching and adjunct faculty that are like the analogues of temp/contract JDs and document review maybe.


I dunno, I'd much rather be an adjunct than a contract attorney. Plus if you have a Ph.D. in a semi-useful area, you can do work on the side consulting, reviewing grants, etc.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:47 am

dr123 wrote:
scifiguy wrote:There seem a good number of parallels though. You have graduate student instructors doing teaching and adjunct faculty that are like the analogues of temp/contract JDs and document review maybe.


I dunno, I'd much rather be an adjunct than a contract attorney. Plus if you have a Ph.D. in a semi-useful area, you can do work on the side consulting, reviewing grants, etc.

No, adjuncting sucks, unless you're in business (or law) and doing it on top of an actual job. Granted, being a contract attorney probably sucks too, but at least you don't take grading home with you at night.

Also, you shouldn't go into (much) debt for a Ph.D., but the opportunity costs are rough. You're looking at 6-7 years of school, and if you think people look askance at a JD trying to get a non-legal job, trying charging fields after being in school twice as long.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:47 am

dr123 wrote:
scifiguy wrote:There seem a good number of parallels though. You have graduate student instructors doing teaching and adjunct faculty that are like the analogues of temp/contract JDs and document review maybe.


I dunno, I'd much rather be an adjunct than a contract attorney. Plus if you have a Ph.D. in a semi-useful area, you can do work on the side consulting, reviewing grants, etc.


Maybe.

I think my point (I can't remember fully, b/c I'm so sleepy right now) was more that there are less full-time jobs in both industries because of cheap labor, part-time labor. Universities are using graduate students and adjuncts to do teaching in place of a full-time position that could have been created.

In law, you have temp/contract attorneys doing the lower end work that lawyers used to do.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:50 am

Yeah, I think there are a lot of analogies. I think making partner in biglaw is a lot like getting tenure (although I think the weeding out is earlier in academia - fewer people get tenure-track jobs than get biglaw, but more people will get tenure than make partner. Mind you, I don't have any numbers supporting that, it's just an impression).

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:52 am

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Yeah, I think there are a lot of analogies. I think making partner in biglaw is a lot like getting tenure (although I think the weeding out is earlier in academia - fewer people get tenure-track jobs than get biglaw, but more people will get tenure than make partner. Mind you, I don't have any numbers supporting that, it's just an impression).



Yeah, long hours too. One of my profs said expect 65-70 hours a week if you want to be a prof./Ph.D. grad student.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:54 am

superdingle2000 wrote:
dr123 wrote:Comparing Ph.D. to J.D. is retarded. There is so much variety within Ph.D. degrees, some are very much in demand and others are more saturated than law.

ETA: Also tenure track faculty positions arent the end-goal for every Ph.D. student.



Yeah, OP you really have to be more specific. I was interested in a Ph.D. in philosophy. Then I checked this site out (created by someone you may be familiar with): http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/perspective.asp



Yikes:

For 1995-96, there were 341 PhDs awarded in the United States and Canada, as reported by the Review of Metaphysics. Of these 341, just 17 were offered tenure-track jobs (or the equivalent) in top 50 Ph.D. programs or their foreign equivalents. Of these 17, six were graduates of Princeton, three of Pittsburgh, two of Michigan, and one each of Rutgers, Stanford, Iowa, Minnesota, Notre Dame, and Texas . Of these 341, a mere six were offered jobs at top fifteen programs. Of these six, two each went to Princeton and Michigan, and one each went to Pittsburgh and Rutgers .

A further warning: the vast majority of the Michigan students who had tenure-track offers from top ten departments during the 1990s spent 7-10 years in graduate school. There is a sobering message in this: the kinds of skills needed to land a entry-level post are now the kinds of skills someone thirty years ago would have acquired after three years as a tenure-track assistant professor! The ferocious competition for jobs creates an incentive for students to spend a very long time perfecting their work.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:00 am

I wonder what happens to all the Ph.D.'s who don't land academic jobs?

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:10 am

Desert Fox wrote:And PhD's are somewhat a job in and of themselves. Someone pays you 30K to teach a bunch of undergrads and do research.

Never do an unfunded one.


This is basically all you need to know.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby dr123 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:11 am

The top 50 Ph.D. programs or their foreign equivalents thing is kind of misleading.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby scifiguy » Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:12 am

That, he says, helps explain why 15% of taxi drivers in 2010 had bachelor's degrees vs. 1% in 1970. Among retail sales clerks, 25% had a bachelor's degree in 2010. Less than 5% did in 1970.

Some more interesting stats.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby banjo » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:20 am

I'll stand by what I said in another thread: PhDs in the humanities are an infinitely worse idea than a T14 JD. You might not have to deal with debt, but you'll lose 6-9 years of your twenties with abysmal job prospects. A PhD in biostatistics is probably a different story, though.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:25 am

scifiguy wrote:I wonder what happens to all the Ph.D.'s who don't land academic jobs?

Same thing that happens to JDs who don't get legal jobs - they're taken out back behind the barn and shot.

banjo wrote:I'll stand by what I said in another thread: PhDs in the humanities are an infinitely worse idea than a T14 JD. You might not have to deal with debt, but you'll lose 6-9 years of your twenties with abysmal job prospects. A PhD in biostatistics is probably a different story, though.

Absolutely.

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Re: What Has Worse Job Market: Ph.d.'s or J.D.'s? ..or BA/BS's?

Postby guano » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:31 am

scifiguy wrote:one-fourth of their 2010 history Ph.D.s are either unemployed or their fate is unknown

well, no shit. I'm surprised it isn't higher




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