Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

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ksllaw
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Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby ksllaw » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:10 pm

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

Hi everyone,

I just saw today that Paul Campos has officially ended ITLSS. As someone who's benefited directly and tremendously from the information, analysis, and credibility Campos has provided re: the conditions of the legal economy and legal academia over the past several years, I thought I'd be great to have a post thanking him (he does read TLS), sharing about things we've learned or appreciated about ITLSS (or have had impact us or others significantly), and possibly even articulating a future direction for how/where the law school transparency movement can and will go in the future.

I planned to email Campos directly at some point with a thank you, but can at least share here that he significantly changed my mind about attending law school (I pulled out last cycle in part due to his work and blog). While I will still apply this coming cycle, I am much more informed (on so many issues) and will be doing so as more of a back-up plan to other things I'm now considering and working on (you can see the "OL back-up plans" thread for that). It would take very perfect or close to perfect conditions for me to attend law school eventually (it's not out of the realm of possiblity, but I'd want to maximize all of the odds and advantages to my favor) and I know also that I've influenced at least one other person in this regard as well, as that person now has a better understanding of the truth about law school and will not be attending at full price what TLS would call a "TTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT."

I'll have more to say later, but just wanted to start a thread more immediately!

byn
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby byn » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:16 pm

Campos didn't start the fire, but he certainly poured some high-grade accelerant on it.

There's no stopping this now. It's going to be an interesting few years.

bracq24
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby bracq24 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:36 pm

Agreed. For me, the most important thing Campos made me realize was that the T-14 or bust attitude is not some sort of foolproof plan. Rather, there are many many T-14 graduates who end up with bad outcomes (either directly out of law school or 5-10 years down the line). Before Campos I had never thought about what happened to attorneys who got Big Law 5 or 10 years after they entered and how so many of them are screwed. SIn many ways they are the "lucky ones" because they paid off their debt, but they are still in a very difficult position. Many thanks to Campos for exposing so much of this.

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holmesboy
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby holmesboy » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:53 pm

I'm gonna miss reading ITLSS.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:25 pm

holmesboy wrote:I'm gonna miss reading ITLSS.


#tipscaptoCampos

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banjo
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby banjo » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:58 pm

I posted that he should thank TLS and someone started foaming at the mouth attacking me. I thought he got some decent publicity for his book and blog here (this is where I heard about it...), borrowed this resource frequently for commentary, and even borrowed some methods/figures from knowledgeable posters here, such as with the Chicago stats here: http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... eaven.html. Who cares if he was initially blocked or whatever -- TLS helped extend his message, and in large part now spreads a version of it. Oh well.

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Cicero76
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby Cicero76 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:00 pm

Paul Campos was perhaps the single most influential voice on my journal through law school admissions. The closure of his blog is the saddest thing for me in quite a long time. It was often the highlight of my day.

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Tom Joad
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:24 pm

I wonder how many lives Campos has positively affected? What a good person for society. I would buy him a brewskie.

jwinaz
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby jwinaz » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:13 am

As to future goals of the "movement," does anyone know what's happening with those lawsuits against law schools by former students?

I personally feel that schools that flat out lied about employment and salary statistics (not just using misleading stats, but straight up lies) ought to be charged with some kind of fraud.

They took the money of these students - many probably young kids...21, 22 years old - but, more importantly, they took their dreams away from them. In return, these schools often gave back to their students six-figure debt, broken dreams, and stolen youth. I can understand some of the anger that arises from some scambloggers out there. Their blogs are probably one of the few ways they are able to voice their pain and have any kind of recourse.

But what about the legitimacy of these lawsuits and potential for former students to have their money recouped? If a law school knowingly posted false statistics of like 93% employment and starting salaries of $100K+ for their grads (when in reality only 25% of their grads had any type of legal employment whatsover and none ever even got biglaw, etc.), then took $150K from a 22-year old kid believing them, I feel they owe the student their money back.

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PDaddy
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby PDaddy » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:36 am

jwinaz wrote:As to future goals of the "movement," does anyone know what's happening with those lawsuits against law schools by former students?

I personally feel that schools that flat out lied about employment and salary statistics (not just using misleading stats, but straight up lies) ought to be charged with some kind of fraud.

They took the money of these students - many probably young kids...21, 22 years old - but, more importantly, they took their dreams away from them. In return, these schools often gave back to their students six-figure debt, broken dreams, and stolen youth. I can understand some of the anger that arises from some scambloggers out there. Their blogs are probably one of the few ways they are able to voice their pain and have any kind of recourse.

But what about the legitimacy of these lawsuits and potential for former students to have their money recouped? If a law school knowingly posted false statistics of like 93% employment and starting salaries of $100K+ for their grads (when in reality only 25% of their grads had any type of legal employment whatsover and none ever even got biglaw, etc.), then took $150K from a 22-year old kid believing them, I feel they owe the student their money back.


It's funny how much more "juice" this type of thinking has today, when half of TLS (and LSD) jumped all over my case for even suggesting the fraud angle 3-4 years ago. It just goes to show how many TLSers were disagreeing with me because they knew that I was black, instead of listening to and accepting my wise perspective and advice. I even predicted the lawsuits that ultimately were filed before anyone could even conceive of such litigation.

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North
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby North » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:05 am

PDaddy wrote:It's funny how much more "juice" this type of thinking has today, when half of TLS (and LSD) jumped all over my case for even suggesting the fraud angle 3-4 years ago. It just goes to show how many TLSers were disagreeing with me because they knew that I was black, instead of listening to and accepting my wise perspective and advice. I even predicted the lawsuits that ultimately were filed before anyone could even conceive of such litigation.

wat

MAHamlin
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby MAHamlin » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:56 pm

North wrote:
PDaddy wrote:It's funny how much more "juice" this type of thinking has today, when half of TLS (and LSD) jumped all over my case for even suggesting the fraud angle 3-4 years ago. It just goes to show how many TLSers were disagreeing with me because they knew that I was black, instead of listening to and accepting my wise perspective and advice. I even predicted the lawsuits that ultimately were filed before anyone could even conceive of such litigation.

wat


+1 wat

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paratactical
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby paratactical » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:03 pm

North wrote:
PDaddy wrote:It's funny how much more "juice" this type of thinking has today, when half of TLS (and LSD) jumped all over my case for even suggesting the fraud angle 3-4 years ago. It just goes to show how many TLSers were disagreeing with me because they knew that I was black, instead of listening to and accepting my wise perspective and advice. I even predicted the lawsuits that ultimately were filed before anyone could even conceive of such litigation.

wat

I see you are unfamiliar with PDaddy's posting history.

PDaddy on White Men wrote:Those no ass havin', no-lipped, hawk-nosed, sunburned, buttermilk in the mornin' smellin' (and they smell just like buttermilk in the morning), pale-faced scrubs will never touch black men in the beauty department. They typically can't dance, they're nasty (in more ways than one), and they are cowardly.


Also note that a number of his posts have been replaced with the following by moderators:

REMARKS REMOVED BY MODERATOR AS EXTREME AND OFFENSIVE TOWARD OTHER POSTERS

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alwayssunnyinfl
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby alwayssunnyinfl » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:12 pm

While I am infinitely more thankful to TLS for keeping me from going to my local TTT, I'm still appreciative of what Campos had to say. Thanks dude, good luck.

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NinerFan
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby NinerFan » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:11 pm

Tenured or not, self-interested or not, I think it was pretty brave of Campos to say all what he said when he said it.

He said it best in his last post- "if people enjoying the extraordinary protections afforded by tenure aren’t willing to confront institutional corruption, then academic tenure is an indefensible privilege."

Too many academics still are blind to or are delusional about the truth out there.

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scifiguy
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby scifiguy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:55 am

Hmmm....so do you guys agree with Campos that now in 2013 that the law school scam message even if not universally heard is universally accessible to folks (through minimal internet research)? That seemed to be one of the main reasons he stopped his blog from what I casn tell reading his last few messages up until the final one.

I still don't think everyone has heard, but I might agree that the message is at least universally accessible now (by reasonable minded people engaging in minimal research). At least some of teh bigger news outlets (although not in as much detail and accuracy) are finally covering it now and not just scambloggers.

THe only immediate point of contention that came to my mind was that possibly either minority or otherwise isolated and disadvantaged people might still not have full access or knowledge of the situation. Remember that the University of Phoenix and other for profit schools often preyed on ignorant and poor folks (many minority studetns who were the first to attend college) and they remind me of the "TTT's" or Cooley's of the law school world.

I live in a city that borders/neighbors a low-income, high crime city (many minorities in that city) in which I've come across many people who don't seem ot have computer/internet access at home. I used to check out materials and sometimes study in the neighboring city's public library and you could sort of tell that many of the people there likely only had cmoputer access at the public library there....I could be wrong, but it seemed like it. I think in really poor communities where people don't have access to ocmputers and internet as easily and don't have good knowledgeable people and role models in their community to share with them the realities of the work world that there could still be some very vulernable people applying to the Cooley's of the law school world and taking out full tuition. ...That's what happens at these for profit UGs. It's often poor and minority students from very culturally and socially isolated areas that get taken in by the propaganda and advertising and may not have the life experience to know to check further.

NYstate
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby NYstate » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:14 am

scifiguy wrote:Hmmm....so do you guys agree with Campos that now in 2013 that the law school scam message even if not universally heard is universally accessible to folks (through minimal internet research)? That seemed to be one of the main reasons he stopped his blog from what I casn tell reading his last few messages up until the final one.

I still don't think everyone has heard, but I might agree that the message is at least universally accessible now (by reasonable minded people engaging in minimal research). At least some of teh bigger news outlets (although not in as much detail and accuracy) are finally covering it now and not just scambloggers.

THe only immediate point of contention that came to my mind was that possibly either minority or otherwise isolated and disadvantaged people might still not have full access or knowledge of the situation. Remember that the University of Phoenix and other for profit schools often preyed on ignorant and poor folks (many minority studetns who were the first to attend college) and they remind me of the "TTT's" or Cooley's of the law school world.

I live in a city that borders/neighbors a low-income, high crime city (many minorities in that city) in which I've come across many people who don't seem ot have computer/internet access at home. I used to check out materials and sometimes study in the neighboring city's public library and you could sort of tell that many of the people there likely only had cmoputer access at the public library there....I could be wrong, but it seemed like it. I think in really poor communities where people don't have access to ocmputers and internet as easily and don't have good knowledgeable people and role models in their community to share with them the realities of the work world that there could still be some very vulernable people applying to the Cooley's of the law school world and taking out full tuition. ...That's what happens at these for profit UGs. It's often poor and minority students from very culturally and socially isolated areas that get taken in by the propaganda and advertising and may not have the life experience to know to check further.


No I don't think the message is out. He is correct that the scam message has become mainstream from being mocked and dismissed. (Part of the reason for that success was that the lies of the schools in employment and salary information were revealed.)

I think he stopped his blog in part because he was under pressure. He mentioned that he never discussed the personal and professional harm he suffered in doing the blog. He also mentioned that he knew at least one law professor who had been sanctioned for involvement in the scam movement. He had discussed faculty meetings, faculty review and other specific things about the University of Colorado and that may have caused him some trouble with the law school. Not sure, just a guess on my part.

He also may have felt he had nothing more to say and was starting to repeat himself, so it was time to call it a day.

Some combination of these three things maybe.

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scifiguy
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby scifiguy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:31 am

NYstate wrote:
scifiguy wrote:Hmmm....so do you guys agree with Campos that now in 2013 that the law school scam message even if not universally heard is universally accessible to folks (through minimal internet research)? That seemed to be one of the main reasons he stopped his blog from what I casn tell reading his last few messages up until the final one.

I still don't think everyone has heard, but I might agree that the message is at least universally accessible now (by reasonable minded people engaging in minimal research). At least some of teh bigger news outlets (although not in as much detail and accuracy) are finally covering it now and not just scambloggers.

THe only immediate point of contention that came to my mind was that possibly either minority or otherwise isolated and disadvantaged people might still not have full access or knowledge of the situation. Remember that the University of Phoenix and other for profit schools often preyed on ignorant and poor folks (many minority studetns who were the first to attend college) and they remind me of the "TTT's" or Cooley's of the law school world.

I live in a city that borders/neighbors a low-income, high crime city (many minorities in that city) in which I've come across many people who don't seem ot have computer/internet access at home. I used to check out materials and sometimes study in the neighboring city's public library and you could sort of tell that many of the people there likely only had cmoputer access at the public library there....I could be wrong, but it seemed like it. I think in really poor communities where people don't have access to ocmputers and internet as easily and don't have good knowledgeable people and role models in their community to share with them the realities of the work world that there could still be some very vulernable people applying to the Cooley's of the law school world and taking out full tuition. ...That's what happens at these for profit UGs. It's often poor and minority students from very culturally and socially isolated areas that get taken in by the propaganda and advertising and may not have the life experience to know to check further.


No I don't think the message is out. He is correct that the scam message has become mainstream from being mocked and dismissed. (Part of the reason for that success was that the lies of the schools in employment and salary information were revealed.)

I think he stopped his blog in part because he was under pressure. He mentioned that he never discussed the personal and professional harm he suffered in doing the blog. He also mentioned that he knew at least one law professor who had been sanctioned for involvement in the scam movement. He had discussed faculty meetings, faculty review and other specific things about the University of Colorado and that may have caused him some trouble with the law school. Not sure, just a guess on my part.

He also may have felt he had nothing more to say and was starting to repeat himself, so it was time to call it a day.

Some combination of these three things maybe.


I wouldn't think it was because of blow back from faculty...maybe.....but PC does have tenure and I wouldn't think exercising his free speech rights could get someone untenured.

I always thought part of the great benefit of having tenure is teh safety it provides you to do original research or hold views that may be controversial and not be fired for it. I got the impressoin that PC thought it was time to move on now that the message is much more widely known (than before) or at least easily accessible now. So, he doesn't have to continue to update every day or every other day just to keep it fresh.

NYstate
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Re: Farewell and Many Thanks to "Inside The Law School Scam"

Postby NYstate » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:39 am

I don't mean losing tenure, though I don't know if publicly posting internal school meetings and documents is a reason to lose tenure, but he could be sanctioned. He described the internal vote on creating on LLM, at some point you have to think there is a boundary. And I'm sure he took incredible pressure from many law professors deans and administrators for his role inexposing the scam.




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