A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

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rad lulz
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:14 pm

Poo-T wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:It's shit all over, and if you go someplace like Wake nobody will feel bad for you if it ends in financial ruin for you because it's such an obviously terrible bet.

For some reason I'm just not convinced that it's "shit all over". Why exactly is it so bad?

no jobs

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Poo-T
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Poo-T » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:21 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Poo-T wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:It's shit all over, and if you go someplace like Wake nobody will feel bad for you if it ends in financial ruin for you because it's such an obviously terrible bet.

For some reason I'm just not convinced that it's "shit all over". Why exactly is it so bad?

no jobs

Why are there no jerbs at Wake? I mean I admit, statistically the percent employed at graduation is pretty weak. But why? My cousin graduated from Campbell less than a year ago and she got a job in 3 months. It's not great pay but it's still a stable job with a decent income.

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cinephile
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby cinephile » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:25 pm

Poo-T wrote:Why are there no jerbs at Wake? I mean I admit, statistically the percent employed at graduation is pretty weak. But why? My cousin graduated from Campbell less than a year ago and she got a job in 3 months. It's not great pay but it's still a stable job with a decent income.


It's not really that there are no jobs, it's more like there are 10 jobs worth getting and you may be one of those lucky 10 out of 200, but the odds are overwhelmingly against you. Your cousin played the lottery and she won. What are the odds of two cousins both winning the law school lottery? Pretty low. Hold out for something better/retake and reapply.

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dingbat
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby dingbat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:34 pm

The quick answer is that nationally law school's graduate 45,000 people per year, but the job market only has 25,000 positions. That means slightly less than half can't get a job. How that stacks out varies, but shitty schools can have 3/4 unemployment while great schos are 3/4 the other way. Many T1 school's around 60%, so 2 out of every 5 are fucked.
Of the remainder, air becomes an issue of A) the quality of the job, and B) the salary relative to the cost/debt.
Without getting technical, of those 3/5 that have jobs, maybe 1 will have shift paying or prestigious job and the other two will have a relatively low paying job that doesn't have good long term prospects. If your debt is minimal, it's ok to be in that group, but if you paid anywhere near sticker, you maybe we pay off your debt.

So, for every 5 students, that's one good outcome, 2 have low paying, but at least real legal jobs, and 2 who are unemployed or flipping burgers (and massively in debt)

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Poo-T
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Poo-T » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:44 pm

dingbat wrote:The quick answer is that nationally law school's graduate 45,000 people per year, but the job market only has 25,000 positions. That means slightly less than half can't get a job. How that stacks out varies, but shitty schools can have 3/4 unemployment while great schos are 3/4 the other way. Many T1 school's around 60%, so 2 out of every 5 are fucked.
Of the remainder, air becomes an issue of A) the quality of the job, and B) the salary relative to the cost/debt.
Without getting technical, of those 3/5 that have jobs, maybe 1 will have shift paying or prestigious job and the other two will have a relatively low paying job that doesn't have good long term prospects. If your debt is minimal, it's ok to be in that group, but if you paid anywhere near sticker, you maybe we pay off your debt.

So, for every 5 students, that's one good outcome, 2 have low paying, but at least real legal jobs, and 2 who are unemployed or flipping burgers (and massively in debt)

Kudos to you, sir. At last I truly see...

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Bildungsroman
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Bildungsroman » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:45 pm

Poo-T wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Poo-T wrote:
Bildungsroman wrote:It's shit all over, and if you go someplace like Wake nobody will feel bad for you if it ends in financial ruin for you because it's such an obviously terrible bet.

For some reason I'm just not convinced that it's "shit all over". Why exactly is it so bad?

no jobs

Why are there no jerbs at Wake? I mean I admit, statistically the percent employed at graduation is pretty weak. But why?

The reasons for the poor odds don't change whether it's a sucker's bet. Unless you're hoping the explanation is something that will still justify your going, like maybe all those unemployed people are all convicted arsonists so there's a virgin meadow of jobs just waiting to get plowed by your innocent hands. Alas no, the reason there are so many unemployed grads is a lot of people thought they were special and would be one of the lucky ones, and unfortunately not every $200,000 scratch-off ticket can be a winner.

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Poo-T
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Poo-T » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:51 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
Poo-T wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Poo-T wrote:For some reason I'm just not convinced that it's "shit all over". Why exactly is it so bad?

no jobs

Why are there no jerbs at Wake? I mean I admit, statistically the percent employed at graduation is pretty weak. But why?

The reasons for the poor odds don't change whether it's a sucker's bet. Unless you're hoping the explanation is something that will still justify your going, like maybe all those unemployed people are all convicted arsonists so there's a virgin meadow of jobs just waiting to get plowed by your innocent hands. Alas no, the reason there are so many unemployed grads is a lot of people thought they were special and would be one of the lucky ones, and unfortunately not every $200,000 scratch-off ticket can be a winner.

but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.

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Ruxin1
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Ruxin1 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:52 pm

No you'll just be 25? 30? years old with a useless degree, and a 3 year resume gap where non-legal employers probably won't give you a job...

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prezidentv8
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:53 pm

Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.



Okay, but never forget DAT OPPORTUNITY COST.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:55 pm

Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.


Thats cool, but if you are rich you can afford to either a) go to a school in a great location that you have always wanted to live (think hawaii, not winston-salem) or b) pay your bills why you are studying for the LSAT so you can later attend Haavvad.

What do you want to be doing in ten years?
Last edited by Lord Randolph McDuff on Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rahviveh
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:56 pm

Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.


You are in an enviable position. Why not go to a school with better prospects? Unlike others who have to borrow, you will never have to make the choice of the cheaper school with lesser job outcomes.

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Poo-T
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Poo-T » Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:58 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.



Okay, but never forget DAT OPPORTUNITY COST.

but I'm a philosophy major...

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Poo-T
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Poo-T » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:01 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.


You are in an enviable position. Why not go to a school with better prospects? Unlike others who have to borrow, you will never have to make the choice of the cheaper school with lesser job outcomes.

Well I might (keyword: might) get into Duke. But, even though Duke has waay better job opportunities, I'll A) absolutely HAVE TO have a job when I graduate (I need to be part of the 80% that get a job) and b) still have to pay off 200k worth of debt, probably working my ass off to doing something miserable to get it off my back. It seems pretty risky too.

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prezidentv8
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:02 pm

Poo-T wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.



Okay, but never forget DAT OPPORTUNITY COST.

but I'm a philosophy major...


I understand your point, but realize (1) that it's still 3 years of your life, (2) that it is possible to get some job doing something, even if it's just a random service job, and (3) that a Wake JD stands a very good chance of not actually improving your employability anyway.

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prezidentv8
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:03 pm

Poo-T wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.


You are in an enviable position. Why not go to a school with better prospects? Unlike others who have to borrow, you will never have to make the choice of the cheaper school with lesser job outcomes.

Well I might (keyword: might) get into Duke. But, even though Duke has waay better job opportunities, I'll A) absolutely HAVE TO have a job when I graduate (I need to be part of the 80% that get a job) and b) still have to pay off 200k worth of debt, probably working my ass off to doing something miserable to get it off my back. It seems pretty risky too.


Yah, I don't think Duke at 200k is a risk I'd take.

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Rahviveh
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:03 pm

Poo-T wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.


You are in an enviable position. Why not go to a school with better prospects? Unlike others who have to borrow, you will never have to make the choice of the cheaper school with lesser job outcomes.

Well I might (keyword: might) get into Duke. But, even though Duke has waay better job opportunities, I'll A) absolutely HAVE TO have a job when I graduate (I need to be part of the 80% that get a job) and b) still have to pay off 200k worth of debt, probably working my ass off to doing something miserable to get it off my back. It seems pretty risky too.


i misunderstood you, i thought your parents were paying for your tuition or something (so you could go anywhere for free).

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Poo-T
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Poo-T » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:05 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
Poo-T wrote:
prezidentv8 wrote:
Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.



Okay, but never forget DAT OPPORTUNITY COST.

but I'm a philosophy major...


I understand your point, but realize (1) that it's still 3 years of your life, (2) that it is possible to get some job doing something, even if it's just a random service job, and (3) that a Wake JD stands a very good chance of not actually improving your employability anyway.

You're right that 3 years of my life will be gone, which is a big gamble, but isn't (2) still open to me after graduation? Sure, a JD isn't going to help me, but proably isn't going to hurt me either, right?

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Poo-T
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Poo-T » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:06 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Poo-T wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
Poo-T wrote:but my tuition's paid for. I know COL is going to put me in some debt but not that much (unless I'm missing something).

It seems to me like it's actually a pretty good bet considering my tuition is covered. Even if I lose out on in the job market competition, I won't be up shit creek with debt....

I can work a shit job and still at least get by.


You are in an enviable position. Why not go to a school with better prospects? Unlike others who have to borrow, you will never have to make the choice of the cheaper school with lesser job outcomes.

Well I might (keyword: might) get into Duke. But, even though Duke has waay better job opportunities, I'll A) absolutely HAVE TO have a job when I graduate (I need to be part of the 80% that get a job) and b) still have to pay off 200k worth of debt, probably working my ass off to doing something miserable to get it off my back. It seems pretty risky too.


i misunderstood you, i thought your parents were paying for your tuition or something (so you could go anywhere for free).

Oh i see. yea we're piss poor, which is why they're so happy to see me getting a full ride (does full-tuition count as a full-ride?)

empyreanrrv
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby empyreanrrv » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:26 pm

It is a gamble, but I think you know it is a gamble. If you are okay with the worst-case scenario then there is no reason not to go, if you want to be a lawyer. With a full-ride there is nothing stopping you from going and dropping out if it isn't what you want to do.

I am in a similar position and it is also terrifying when looking at job prospects, but freedom from debt will give you the flexibility to rebound in case the gamble does not work out.

fallingup
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby fallingup » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:41 pm

Poo-T wrote:
fallingup wrote:What is wrong with people? I really do not understand the sense of ownership and territoriality some users have over this site. It's an anonymous forum, not "your" table at the cafeteria.

OP, what kind of job are you hoping to get? Where do you want to practice?

Thanks for the kind words. I'm sorry grapefruit for my childish behavior. Let us be bros.

I live in NC and I want to practice in NC, maybe a moderate city like Raleigh. Luckily I actually have some relatives who are very successful as trial litigators, and they are interested in helping me in my job pursuit. For the most part, I'm looking for a private sector job in criminal law. I think as far as my regional goals are concerned I feel like Wake fits the bill, but I could be wrong.

Also, Wake is offering a full-tuition scholarship, so it would be nice to have little debt.


That's nice. I live in Raleigh actually. Are there really that many legal jobs here? I don't get the sense that there are. You might consider looking at Charlotte more. Try to get in touch with some lawyers there and get their advice since they know the hiring market better. You went to UNC - message some law students and ask their thoughts, or ask the career center or alumni group on campus to put you in touch with some alumni lawyers in the state who can give you personalized advice.

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Poo-T
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby Poo-T » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:50 pm

fallingup wrote:
Poo-T wrote:
fallingup wrote:What is wrong with people? I really do not understand the sense of ownership and territoriality some users have over this site. It's an anonymous forum, not "your" table at the cafeteria.

OP, what kind of job are you hoping to get? Where do you want to practice?

Thanks for the kind words. I'm sorry grapefruit for my childish behavior. Let us be bros.

I live in NC and I want to practice in NC, maybe a moderate city like Raleigh. Luckily I actually have some relatives who are very successful as trial litigators, and they are interested in helping me in my job pursuit. For the most part, I'm looking for a private sector job in criminal law. I think as far as my regional goals are concerned I feel like Wake fits the bill, but I could be wrong.

Also, Wake is offering a full-tuition scholarship, so it would be nice to have little debt.


That's nice. I live in Raleigh actually. Are there really that many legal jobs here? I don't get the sense that there are. You might consider looking at Charlotte more. Try to get in touch with some lawyers there and get their advice since they know the hiring market better. You went to UNC - message some law students and ask their thoughts, or ask the career center or alumni group on campus to put you in touch with some alumni lawyers in the state who can give you personalized advice.

Yea, that's a good idea. Luckily, that relative of mine (I don't want to say his name) is a very well-known criminal lawyer in NC. I at least have him in my retinue of people and he's apt to help me with my goals.

rad lulz
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:59 pm

Poo-T wrote:You're right that 3 years of my life will be gone, which is a big gamble, but isn't (2) still open to me after graduation? Sure, a JD isn't going to help me, but proably isn't going to hurt me either, right?

The "skills" a JD teaches you are no valuable to non-legal employers and you will be viewed (rightly so) as someone who wanted to be a lawyer and couldn't make it happen.

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prezidentv8
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:04 pm

rad lulz wrote:
Poo-T wrote:You're right that 3 years of my life will be gone, which is a big gamble, but isn't (2) still open to me after graduation? Sure, a JD isn't going to help me, but proably isn't going to hurt me either, right?

The "skills" a JD teaches you are no valuable to non-legal employers and you will be viewed (rightly so) as someone who wanted to be a lawyer and couldn't make it happen.


Also, what I was getting at was lost wages.

rad lulz
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:05 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
Poo-T wrote:You're right that 3 years of my life will be gone, which is a big gamble, but isn't (2) still open to me after graduation? Sure, a JD isn't going to help me, but proably isn't going to hurt me either, right?

The "skills" a JD teaches you are no valuable to non-legal employers and you will be viewed (rightly so) as someone who wanted to be a lawyer and couldn't make it happen.


Also, what I was getting at was lost wages.

Also true

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dingbat
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Re: A Job prospects that bad for T1 schools?

Postby dingbat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:07 pm

There is no right answer.
Duke at $200k means needing a biglaw job, which I think about 60% get.
Wake forest at $65k (living expenses) needs at least a decent job, which, what, 60% get?
(I can't look up actual statistics right now)

So your chances are more or less the same. Do you aim big (Duke), or play it safe (wake)?
Basically, your chance of success is more or less the same, but at Duke the reward for winning is greater, while at Wake the downside of failure is less drastic.

Pick your poison, and good luck




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