How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school? Forum

[LRGhost]

You guys raise good points about this widespread ignorance. I've noticed it too. My friend is writing the Feb LSAT. He was talking proudly about how he was PTing in the high 150s. He's a capable guy with a super high GPA. I told him with a better LSAT he has a serious shot at T6 and he nearly slapped me as if I was talking blasphemy.

I cant help but feel like this ignorance is not just limited to law school. It seems like its something structural, something that cuts right across the way society operates in general. We may be just seeing one manifestation of it up close.

You know when your parents told you to go to college and get a degree and get a job?

Yeah, that's the structural problem.

[pruufreadr]

My in-laws are stepping-up on hassling my husband about our potential $150,000-$200,000 in debt that we will almost definitely incur and how his future is being ruined because I am insisting on attending law school.

Some people read too many scamblogs.

*My acceptance/rejection letter is in the mail from the University of North Dakota. If I have to borrow anything the total cost over three years will be less than the cost of their bank-owned minivan.

[LRGhost]

My in-laws are stepping-up on hassling my husband about our potential $150,000-$200,000 in debt that we will almost definitely incur and how his future is being ruined because I am insisting on attending law school.

Some people read too many scamblogs.

*My acceptance/rejection letter is in the mail from the University of North Dakota. If I have to borrow anything the total cost over three years will be less than the cost of their bank-owned minivan.

csb? Did you explain to them that you'd have a scholarship or pay for it out of pocket? Because if not, they're doing the right thing.

[pruufreadr]

My in-laws are stepping-up on hassling my husband about our potential $150,000-$200,000 in debt that we will almost definitely incur and how his future is being ruined because I am insisting on attending law school.

csb? Did you explain to them that you'd have a scholarship or pay for it out of pocket? Because if not, they're doing the right thing.

I'm not likely to find a way to spend $150,000 over three years in North Dakota. The snow they have is not the snow you may be used to. In-state at sticker is $10K. On the phone, I've been told that if they accept me, it'd be with a no-stip (2.0/good standing) scholly of some kind. Besides, I am a special snowflake with a previously given TLS OK of UND for my situation.

[LRGhost]

My in-laws are stepping-up on hassling my husband about our potential $150,000-$200,000 in debt that we will almost definitely incur and how his future is being ruined because I am insisting on attending law school.

csb? Did you explain to them that you'd have a scholarship or pay for it out of pocket? Because if not, they're doing the right thing.

I'm not likely to find a way to spend $150,000 over three years in North Dakota. The snow they have is not the snow you may be used to. In-state at sticker is $10K. On the phone, I've been told that if they accept me, it'd be with a no-stip (2.0/good standing) scholly of some kind. Besides, I am a special snowflake with a previously given TLS OK of UND for my situation.

What I'm saying is that if you didn't tell them that, they can't be blamed for assuming tuition is more than 10k. It's not like they're doing anything wrong for making sure their son and daughter-in-law are financially alright.

[pruufreadr]

What I'm saying is that if you didn't tell them that, they can't be blamed for assuming tuition is more than 10k. It's not like they're doing anything wrong for making sure their son and daughter-in-law are financially alright.

Oh, that makes your statement very reasonable. Yes, we've explained it to them several times--yet they continue their cluelessness and obsessive scamblog regurgitating. They are absolutely convinced that everyone leaves law school with between $150,000-$200,000 in student loans, regardless of their school, scholarships, or intentions.

[LRGhost]

What I'm saying is that if you didn't tell them that, they can't be blamed for assuming tuition is more than 10k. It's not like they're doing anything wrong for making sure their son and daughter-in-law are financially alright.

Oh, that makes your statement very reasonable. Yes, we've explained it to them several times--yet they continue their cluelessness and obsessive scamblog regurgitating. They are absolutely convinced that everyone leaves law school with between $150,000-$200,000 in student loans, regardless of their school, scholarships, or intentions.

Well, good luck. At least they're caring. Print out the tuition and scholarship statements and have an adult conversation with them. It'll take time but sometimes a long discussion with financials on the table can make a difference. Maybe they'll still be apprehensive but they'll know that you're on top of everything.

[pruufreadr]

Well, good luck. At least they're caring. Print out the tuition and scholarship statements and have an adult conversation with them.

Excellent advice. I will take it. My 40 yr-old husband actually cares what his parents think of his choices and it has been causing him some minor stress. Awesome.

[stillwater]

I have a friend at NESL. They didn't get the memo.

[timbs4339]

You guys raise good points about this widespread ignorance. I've noticed it too. My friend is writing the Feb LSAT. He was talking proudly about how he was PTing in the high 150s. He's a capable guy with a super high GPA. I told him with a better LSAT he has a serious shot at T6 and he nearly slapped me as if I was talking blasphemy.

I cant help but feel like this ignorance is not just limited to law school. It seems like its something structural, something that cuts right across the way society operates in general. We may be just seeing one manifestation of it up close.

It's basic behavioral psychology. This does cut across the idea of the "rational actor" that is so central to a lot of our policies (see, the "reasonable man" in torts). When you realize people are irrational a lot of what we do starts to make no sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

What I'm saying is that if you didn't tell them that, they can't be blamed for assuming tuition is more than 10k. It's not like they're doing anything wrong for making sure their son and daughter-in-law are financially alright.

Oh, that makes your statement very reasonable. Yes, we've explained it to them several times--yet they continue their cluelessness and obsessive scamblog regurgitating. They are absolutely convinced that everyone leaves law school with between $150,000-$200,000 in student loans, regardless of their school, scholarships, or intentions.

This is a good example of the above links, reversed. These people are operating illogically, just in a way that is generally good for us and bad for schools. Some of those 170s would have probably benefited from their investment, but perhaps failed to adjudge their own employment chances and decided based of broad market signals.

[you'rethemannowdawg]

You guys raise good points about this widespread ignorance. I've noticed it too. My friend is writing the Feb LSAT. He was talking proudly about how he was PTing in the high 150s. He's a capable guy with a super high GPA. I told him with a better LSAT he has a serious shot at T6 and he nearly slapped me as if I was talking blasphemy.

Many people also still believe the myth that LSAT=IQ and that because of that you can't change your score much by studying. Therefore, telling someone to get a higher LSAT score for a better school is just telling them they are stupid.

[Tiago Splitter]

You guys raise good points about this widespread ignorance. I've noticed it too. My friend is writing the Feb LSAT. He was talking proudly about how he was PTing in the high 150s. He's a capable guy with a super high GPA. I told him with a better LSAT he has a serious shot at T6 and he nearly slapped me as if I was talking blasphemy.

I cant help but feel like this ignorance is not just limited to law school. It seems like its something structural, something that cuts right across the way society operates in general. We may be just seeing one manifestation of it up close.

It's basic behavioral psychology. This does cut across the idea of the "rational actor" that is so central to a lot of our policies (see, the "reasonable man" in torts). When you realize people are irrational a lot of what we do starts to make no sense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

But in this case, it doesn't sound like Mr. 150's thinks he is a special snowflake, at least not yet. Sounds more like he has little faith in his own intelligence, and doesn't honestly believe he can score highly enough to get into a top school. He probably also assumes admissions to top law schools are like admissions to other programs and numbers make up only a small portion of the total admit/deny decision, so even if he does well on the LSAT it's just crazy to think he'd get into a Top 6 school. Neither of those things is irrational on its face. What would be irrational is if he ultimately goes forward with his plan to attend and doesn't do the necessary research before investing 6 figures into a scam.

[bk1]

There's got to be a line or two...or three..you can use that will be a strategic way to talk to people.

Why do you care?

If they don't directly ask your opinion, don't give it to them. If they are a relative stranger, it's not your problem. If they are a close friend, ask if you can sit down with them and discuss it with them. If they so no, don't worry about it.

[Icculus]

So at my school I think most people had a pretty good idea of things going in, but it's a T14 and my guess is the higher ranked the school, the more knowledagble people are about the market. I know I'm only at NU because I found this message board, otherwise I would have been listening to the shitboomers and my friends who graduated in 2005 when things were far different. It's funny, when I was applying, a friend of mine who went to NESL tried to convince me not to retake the LSAT (because a 167 is really great, you can get into some really great schools even with your GPA, why risk a score drop?), was shocked I would not even apply to NESL, and in general thought I made some very poor decisions. When I told her I was going to NU she was almost annoyed with me. Now imagine had I not found this website and I decided to go to her for advice, a licensed attorney, who had graduated LS, and who had a job (not biglaw, but a decent job). She thought I should have gone to the new UMass law school (which had not been accredited). Luckily I found TLS. Even my friends who are attorneys in NYC, who were all 100% behind me going to NU once I got in, hd given me some pretty crap advice about applications, etc. It's not because they didn't care, but they just entered into all of this in a very different economic environment.

I'm sure there are 0Ls out there, attending these TTTs, who have asked for advice, but they are asking the wrong people. Shitboomers tell them, oh staTTTTe places really well here, I went there, so did many in my firm and 0Ls believe them without thinking through the change ITE. They're told, don't listen to those people about prestige, they're just assholes. They don't realize that we're not looking at prestige, but rather job prospects. They're told, if you've always wanted this, go for it, consequences be damned, because you're special, and if you work hard you can achieve anything. The don't understand the curve, and the fact that 90% of the class will not end up in the top 10%. (i mean the understand that it works that way, but they don't seem to realize no matter how hard you work it can be you.) And very few people go in with the back up plan of dropping out if their grades suck. I don't necessarily fault these people who think they got good advice. I fault the people who find TLS and ask for advice, get all the info, and then choose to ignore it. Though I do think if you're going to spend a quarter million dollars you should do more research than just ask around, but i also know most people don't think that way.

Not to mention, other grad programs are not much better. I got a master's for teaching, most people I graduated with could not find teaching jobs (the english and history teacher market is oversatuarated) but what people forget is a one year MAT program costs, at most, around $50-$70K if you get no schoalrship money (luckily I did) whereas law school costs $150-200K+ for most people. Big difference. You can get out of a teacghing program and find a job in another field that can pay the bills and loans back. After law school if you have $200K you need dat biglaw paycheck. So when people say the economy is tough for everyone, while technically true, it is intellectually dishonest make such a sweeping generalization.

edit: grammar sucked, hopefully it's slightly better.

[20130312]

There's got to be a line or two...or three..you can use that will be a strategic way to talk to people.

Why do you care?

If they don't directly ask your opinion, don't give it to them. If they are a relative stranger, it's not your problem. If they are a close friend, ask if you can sit down with them and discuss it with them. If they so no, don't worry about it.

YE-UP.

[LRGhost]

]So when people say the economy is tough for everyone, while technically true, it is intellectually dishonest make such a sweeping generalization.

edit: grammar sucked, hopefully it's slightly better.

I agree with everything you said but considering people are wasting four years of UG and one or two years in Master's programs to get the same job they could get out of HS, I think we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss others.

Everything else is spot on. ShiTTTboomers and law grads from before ITE don't know wtf is going on.

[Icculus]

There's got to be a line or two...or three..you can use that will be a strategic way to talk to people.

Why do you care?

If they don't directly ask your opinion, don't give it to them. If they are a relative stranger, it's not your problem. If they are a close friend, ask if you can sit down with them and discuss it with them. If they so no, don't worry about it.

YE-UP.

+1

[Icculus]

]So when people say the economy is tough for everyone, while technically true, it is intellectually dishonest make such a sweeping generalization.

edit: grammar sucked, hopefully it's slightly better.

I agree with everything you said but considering people are wasting four years of UG and one or two years in Master's programs to get the same job they could get out of HS, I think we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss others.

Everything else is spot on. ShiTTTboomers and law grads from before ITE don't know wtf is going on.

Well when I was teaching I would often upset parents when I would suggest that maybe their child should not go to college. These were kids who hated school, hated studying, and wanted to work as mechanics, or plumbers, or computer techs. But these kids parents felt everyone should go to college. People don't want to hear that nor everyone should be in college, there are plenty of people for whom college is a bad idea. That said, my original point was that if your dream is to be a teacher, it's a hell of a lot cheaper to take a swing at that and miss, than at lawyer. Not to mention, at least a master's in an education field doesn't necessarily knock you out of too many other professions, whereas a law degree makes you far less hireable.

I also am blown away by people who take out $100K+ for college student loans for private schools. If you can't get a huge scholarship at a private college or are independently wealthy and can afford the tuition, a state school is usually a better idea. Again, though, parents didn't want to hear this, especially in a place like MA where we have a billion private colleges, we're like the higher education hub of the universe. They figured that college was a way to make more money and therefore the loans are worth it. Plus, they figure, the gov't wouldn't give out the loans if they were a bad idea. It's a nightmare.

edit: LR Ghost, my guess is you and I are pretty close in our thoughts on this.

[LRGhost]

I also am blown away by people who take out $100K+ for college student loans for private schools. If you can't get a huge scholarship at a private college or are independently wealthy and can afford the tuition, a state school is usually a better idea. Again, though, parents didn't want to hear this, especially in a place like MA where we have a billion private colleges, we're like the higher education hub of the universe. They figured that college was a way to make more money and therefore the loans are worth it. Plus, they figure, the gov't wouldn't give out the loans if they were a bad idea. It's a nightmare.

edit: LR Ghost, my guess is you and I are pretty close in our thoughts on this.

Yup, but I wish I had gone to an expensive LAC or private or oos school. It would have been worth it with whatever scholarship I would have received.

But yeah, most kids shouldn't go to college. Fifty years ago, there were less schools and less people with UG degrees. It conferred more prestige and ability and gave you better options. But now that you can have someone who got a 1550 on the SAT graduate next to someone with an 1100, it's a problem. It's a weird situation. Everyone should be able to go to college to further their education in whatever fashion they see fit and have it be free/cheap but not everyone should be able to go to BIGSTATEU.

It's just a different world from when our parents and even older siblings went through this shit.

[Icculus]

The other thing that blows my mind is that there are schools out there where the 75% LSAT is below the national median. I pulled this from the TSU thread (tx golden eye) and since I didn't want to get off topic there, figured I place it here:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... show=chars.

It's these kinds of schools that allow the "follow your dream," "special snow flake" dellusions to continue.

[Icculus]

I also am blown away by people who take out $100K+ for college student loans for private schools. If you can't get a huge scholarship at a private college or are independently wealthy and can afford the tuition, a state school is usually a better idea. Again, though, parents didn't want to hear this, especially in a place like MA where we have a billion private colleges, we're like the higher education hub of the universe. They figured that college was a way to make more money and therefore the loans are worth it. Plus, they figure, the gov't wouldn't give out the loans if they were a bad idea. It's a nightmare.

edit: LR Ghost, my guess is you and I are pretty close in our thoughts on this.

Yup, but I wish I had gone to an expensive LAC or private or oos school. It would have been worth it with whatever scholarship I would have received.

But yeah, most kids shouldn't go to college. Fifty years ago, there were less schools and less people with UG degrees. It conferred more prestige and ability and gave you better options. But now that you can have someone who got a 1550 on the SAT graduate next to someone with an 1100, it's a problem. It's a weird situation. Everyone should be able to go to college to further their education in whatever fashion they see fit and have it be free/cheap but not everyone should be able to go to BIGSTATEU.

It's just a different world from when our parents and even older siblings went through this shit.

Agreed. I mean when I went I was choosing between a full ride at one school and a 2/3 tution offer from another. I took the 2/3 because it was the school I had been dreaming about going to for years. At the same time, I was a freshman in 1998 when the economy was booming and school tution, while high, was not nearly as outrageous as now. The problem is that people tend to not change with the times. And yes, everyone should be able to further their education, but not necessarily to the tune of $100K+. I mean there should be some kind of financial counseling at the very least before that kind of money is loaned out since mst people probably don't understand the non-dischargeable nature of it.

Plus, when I was applying in 1997, the internet was not at all what it is today. My info came from teachers, USNWR (because that was like all we had), Princeton Review, that kind of stuff. With the amount of info available today there should be far more informed students.

[goldeneye]

I think some people have just had a dream of law school for a very long time, for whatever reason. And when they don't succeed right away on the LSAT, they feel they still have to fulfill that dream right now when putting it off a year of so is the best call financially.

Schools like TSU are not the 50k price tag of most schools, but when 18% of its graduates are going solo, its hard to imagine having the capital necessary to hang a shingle when you start out 100k in debt.

[Icculus]

I think some people have just had a dream of law school for a very long time, for whatever reason. And when they don't succeed right away on the LSAT, they feel they still have to fulfill that dream right now when putting it off a year of so is the best call financially.

Schools like TSU are not the 50k price tag of most schools, but when 18% of its graduates are going solo, its hard to imagine having the capital necessary to hang a shingle when you start out 100k in debt.

This is also so confusing. I mean people are always saying how hard they'll work, etc., yet they won't take the time/opportunity to at least try and do as well as possible on this test, and it's because either they are "bad test takers" or "really hate the LSAT." Yet law school is about a single test at the end of the semester, and everyone hates it, and it is generally outcome determinitive. If you plan on working so hard in law school, do the math and position yourself as best as you can before getting there.

I should probably get back to work, but hopefully some 0L will see this thread before posting another Syracuse vs. Drexel, or 149/3.1 what are my chances thread.

[Tom Joad]

You guys raise good points about this widespread ignorance. I've noticed it too. My friend is writing the Feb LSAT. He was talking proudly about how he was PTing in the high 150s. He's a capable guy with a super high GPA. I told him with a better LSAT he has a serious shot at T6 and he nearly slapped me as if I was talking blasphemy.

Many people also still believe the myth that LSAT=IQ and that because of that you can't change your score much by studying. Therefore, telling someone to get a higher LSAT score for a better school is just telling them they are stupid.

Also lots of people have no idea that getting into a top school is even possible. If you don't know anybody who has ever got into a good school, you don't have any reason to think that you can.

[timbs4339]

You guys raise good points about this widespread ignorance. I've noticed it too. My friend is writing the Feb LSAT. He was talking proudly about how he was PTing in the high 150s. He's a capable guy with a super high GPA. I told him with a better LSAT he has a serious shot at T6 and he nearly slapped me as if I was talking blasphemy.

Many people also still believe the myth that LSAT=IQ and that because of that you can't change your score much by studying. Therefore, telling someone to get a higher LSAT score for a better school is just telling them they are stupid.

Also lots of people have no idea that getting into a top school is even possible. If you don't know anybody who has ever got into a good school, you don't have any reason to think that you can.

You'd be surprised at the number of people who think that getting into a T10 school or getting a job at a biglaw firm is all about being loaded and having connections. I'm not saying there aren't those people, or that a lot of people at elite schools aren't from wealthy backgrounds, but most people I know had the scores to get in without any help.