How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

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jwinaz
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How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby jwinaz » Wed Feb 06, 2013 12:00 pm

How many people do you guys find or suspect are still clueless about post-law school employment realities now in 2013?

I just had a talk with a friend who told me of someone he knew who fit that description. Granted it's one person, but it was still ...shocking? ...don't know if that's the right word...to hear.

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you'rethemannowdawg
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby you'rethemannowdawg » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:57 pm

Ignorance about the legal market is still incredibly widespread. I know a few people with decent grades that only took the LSAT once and are now attending schools with terrible employment prospects. One of them is posting all over Facebook about how happy she is to be accepted to a TTT in a completely different region and her friends commented things about her becoming a "big, important lawyer" and asked her to "remember all the little folks when you make it."

Outside TLS, awareness about the job market is rising, but most people seem to this that lawyers make 80k instead of 100k upon graduation. 6

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20130312
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 1:59 pm

Literally everyone, except those that have done an ounce of research. Even people that I go to law school with are completely clueless.

law2015
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby law2015 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:09 pm

I know a lot of people who plan on going to law school and they have no clue. When I try to give them advice they ignore it.

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scifiguy
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:10 pm

Even on TLS, wasn't this kind of different a few years ago?

My friend's sister was a TLS member back in like 2007-ish when she was getting ready to apply to ls.

She seemed to have a more positive outlook desptie applying to lowerT1/top T2 (I think it's straddled those two ranges). ....I remembet hearing her talk about making biglaw type salary and wanting to donate to charity. Now, I believe she's working as a document reviewer/staff attorney at an IP firm. She's definitely not in biglaw.

But she was actually the person who got me to even think about TLS, because I remember her talking to my cousin about it when both were looking at law schools and they used the term TTT and I didn't know what it was .....and they told me about this site.

Anyhow, that was like 4-5 years ago! But wasn't TLS different then? Anyone know?


When exactly did the "scam" stuff start coming out online?
Last edited by scifiguy on Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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20130312
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:12 pm

scifiguy wrote:Even on TLS, wasn't this kind of different a few years ago?

My friend's sister was a TLS member back in like 2007-ish when she was getting ready to apply to ls.

She seemed to have a more positive outlook desptie applying to lowerT1/top T2 (I think it's straddled those two ranges). ....I remembet hearing her talk about making biglaw type salary and wanting to donate to charity. Now, I believe she's working as a document reviewer/staff attorney at an IP firm. She's definitely not in biglaw.

But she was actually the person who got me to even think about TLS, because I remember her talking to my cousin about it when both were looking at law schools and they used the term TTT and I didn't know what it was .....

Anyhow, that was like 4-5 years ago! But wasn't TLS different then? Anyone know?

The ECONOMY was different then. The bottom didn't fall out on the legal market until around 2008 and it hasn't recovered since then.

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scifiguy
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:13 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
scifiguy wrote:Even on TLS, wasn't this kind of different a few years ago?

My friend's sister was a TLS member back in like 2007-ish when she was getting ready to apply to ls.

She seemed to have a more positive outlook desptie applying to lowerT1/top T2 (I think it's straddled those two ranges). ....I remembet hearing her talk about making biglaw type salary and wanting to donate to charity. Now, I believe she's working as a document reviewer/staff attorney at an IP firm. She's definitely not in biglaw.

But she was actually the person who got me to even think about TLS, because I remember her talking to my cousin about it when both were looking at law schools and they used the term TTT and I didn't know what it was .....

Anyhow, that was like 4-5 years ago! But wasn't TLS different then? Anyone know?

The ECONOMY was different then. The bottom didn't fall out on the legal market until around 2008 and it hasn't recovered since then.


Yeah, but weren't there scmablogger then? When did scambloggers really become more pupular?

Then again, many people probably would'nt even read them.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:17 pm

No, scamblogs are more recent - product of the economic nosedive. Nando, king of the scambloggers, didn't start until August 2009. The blogs I checked on his blogroll all start after that. Campos doesn't start till August 2011.

(And it's really creeping me out to see you with someone else's avatar.)

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scifiguy
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:21 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:No, scamblogs are more recent - product of the economic nosedive. Nando, king of the scambloggers, didn't start until August 2009. The blogs I checked on his blogroll all start after that. Campos doesn't start till August 2011.

(And it's really creeping me out to see you with someone else's avatar.)


haha...i think someone else saidt hat too.

maybe i"ll find antoher cat! I just liek this one a lot.

I can't believe Campos started in 2011. That's crazy. I guess it's still relatively new then. For some reason I thought Campos had been around longer.

rad lulz
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby rad lulz » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:23 pm

When I started lurking in late 2009, the experienced poasters were all about how law school was a bad idea, but there was a large amount of naïveté. There is much less now. I rarely see threads about NYLS or Pace any more. But I still see plenty of threads about people who still want to pay a lot for middling schools (like say Hastings). So we have a long way to go.

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nickb285
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby nickb285 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:31 pm

On TLS, there aren't a ton in most of the forums, but check the "Choosing a Law School" and "What Are My Chances" forums and you'll see plenty of people wondering whether they should pay sticker at U of DC or American.

Outside of TLS there are plenty. Most of the kids in my LSAT class were clueless. My parents were pretty clueless when I started the admissions process, but between what I've told them, the things they've looked up on their own, and what they've heard from lawyer friends (my dad's old college friend is an attorney in DC and told him I shouldn't go to GW, her alma mater, unless I got a huge scholarship--I think that made him reevaluate), they've come around. Most people their age still think that way, so if applicants ask their parents they'll get the same sorts of responses I got a few months ago. And everyone I work with still assumes I'll be making six figures after law school, even though my entire plan is keeping my debt and expenses low enough that I can survive on $45k.

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star fox
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby star fox » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:39 pm

People that have no interest in going to Law School still assume everyone who does makes six figures.

It's why you'll never see any sympathy for unemployed JDs. They assume you must have been last in your class while doing nothing outside of school. Lots of misconceptions based off "oh Bill down the street went to a mediocre law school 25 years ago and is doing really well..."

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Rahviveh
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:42 pm

In my experience almost everyone is aware of the employment realities - they just:

a) don't know the specifics or the actual statistics
b) think it won't apply to them or somehow they'll be fine.

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20130312
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:43 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:In my experience almost everyone is aware of the employment realities - they just:

a) don't know the specifics or the actual statistics
b) think it won't apply to them or somehow they'll be fine.

Nope.

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Tom Joad
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby Tom Joad » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:45 pm

Judging by my grades, me.

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drmguy
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby drmguy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:53 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:In my experience almost everyone is aware of the employment realities - they just:

a) don't know the specifics or the actual statistics
b) think it won't apply to them or somehow they'll be fine.

Does almost everyone include anyone other than the 3 people you have talked to about this?

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Rahviveh
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:54 pm

drmguy wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:In my experience almost everyone is aware of the employment realities - they just:

a) don't know the specifics or the actual statistics
b) think it won't apply to them or somehow they'll be fine.

Does almost everyone include anyone other than the 3 people you have talked to about this?


What I meant by that is that most people have heard about all the news stories regarding the employment situation. Do they know the specific NALP/ABA data? Of course not. But the key is that they think it won't apply to them and they just go anyways. I talk to a lot of 0L's its more than 3 people.

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:56 pm

I took a year off, enrolling in Fall '13...

So I have been asked to speak with some students at my UG mostly about tips for thesis, etc., but I've also been asked to give some advice to law school wannabees, mostly poli-sci folk.

It is frightening how naive people are. Last semester I spoke to about 10 kids and all of them looked at me like I had two heads. "The job market sucks." etc, etc. I told them all the bad/realistic stuff. Gave them sites to use to make a better decision through analysis. They seriously believed that getting a law degree, from pretty much anywhere, guaranteed 100k per year jobs. My jaw dropped. These fucking kids only "researched" the schools' websites and sterile bio-books on schools. When I explained that law school was about end-semester exams some of the kids replied they were "pretty smart" and gave me their GPAs. I basically told them that frame of mind would surely doom them in any law school setting and the "meeting" ended with a whimper.

It is DAMN HARD to educate someone whose confidence is based in ignorance. The professor who asked me to talk to them just said, "Yeah, well, now you know why I wanted you to come...."

Sad state.

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prezidentv8
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:59 pm

BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:The professor who asked me to talk to them just said, "Yeah, well, now you know why I wanted you to come...."


This prof sounds like a legit dude.

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BarcaCrossesTheAlps
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby BarcaCrossesTheAlps » Wed Feb 06, 2013 3:05 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
BarcaCrossesTheAlps wrote:The professor who asked me to talk to them just said, "Yeah, well, now you know why I wanted you to come...."


This prof sounds like a legit dude.


Yeah, I really respect the people who gave me my UG education. But this guy is in a weird situation. He basically educates kids to send them on to grad degrees, a good percentage of which traditionally go on to law school/PHd programs. So his situation is a little frightening. "Hey, guys, political science is really fun, cool, etc." on one hand, and "Umm, yeah, the job market sucks. Everyone is getting poli-sci, psychology, etc. degrees." Oh, and the always popular, "You are not a special snowflake" speech he gives on the other hand.

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scifiguy
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:36 pm

Do people get offended if you try to tell them?

I treid having this talk to someone I met who was applying, but she didn't seem very interested and I got the feeling she was still going to apply. I don't think she fully understood the implications of what I was saying, nor fully believed me maybe. Or she thought she was a special snowflake.

But also, I think that she may have been offended ...I don't know, but here's what I feel based on my impressions. I think she thought I was saying SHE was NOT smart enough to go or something like that. YOu know...like I figured she wasn't law school material and was just highlighting the negative and not giving her a complete picture with the positives. I can't tell for sure, but just based on some indicators, that's what it felt like. It's as if she thought I was challenging her intellect somehow and didn't want to hear it. She had planned on law since high school I think ....at the very least since college from which she graduated about a year ago. I think she just had her mind made up and me telling her something negative felt like it was a threat to her in some way. That's how I kind of felt.

It seemed she was annoyed by me possibly. Anyone else get that?

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20130312
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby 20130312 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:37 pm

I don't even try to talk to people about it because people have ridiculous fucking egos. Just say "congrats" and be on your merry way unless they specifically ask for advice or your opinion.

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moonman157
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby moonman157 » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:40 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:I don't even try to talk to people about it because people have ridiculous fucking egos. Just say "congrats" and be on your merry way unless they specifically ask for advice or your opinion.


This. Most of the pre-law people are aware that the market is "bad" but don't chalk it up to much more than the rest of the economy. For a lot of people I know, the very idea of going to law school has not lost its luster or prestige, so simply going to law school is a huge fucking deal (plus, what else are you going to do with that humanities degree ITE?). Special Snowflake Syndrome is very, very real, unfortunately.

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Poo-T
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby Poo-T » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:44 pm

me

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scifiguy
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Re: How many people in 2013 still clueless about law school?

Postby scifiguy » Wed Feb 06, 2013 4:47 pm

moonman157 wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:I don't even try to talk to people about it because people have ridiculous fucking egos. Just say "congrats" and be on your merry way unless they specifically ask for advice or your opinion.


This. Most of the pre-law people are aware that the market is "bad" but don't chalk it up to much more than the rest of the economy. For a lot of people I know, the very idea of going to law school has not lost its luster or prestige, so simply going to law school is a huge fucking deal (plus, what else are you going to do with that humanities degree ITE?). Special Snowflake Syndrome is very, very real, unfortunately.


There's got to be a line or two...or three..you can use that will be a strategic way to talk to people.

In my situation, I think I lacked that touch/balance of showing concern, wanting to tell the truth, and also respecting that person. I think my acquaintance literally thought I was putting her down (her intelligence). ...It was maybe the way I worded it you know. ...It made me wonder if I could have come up with a different approach that would make this more digestable.

I've thought of telling super horror stories, lol., Ones taht would make them see the seriousness of it all.




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