Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

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20130312
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby 20130312 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:55 pm

holmesboy wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:1. No amount of experiential learning will change the fact that there aren't enough jobs.

2. 34%-->52% in SAs is good, although even at 52% I can't justify sticker debt.

3. Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same if that means class size will be cut. Unfortunately he didn't say class size will be cut which probably means if you've got a 2.1/169 you're in.



All good points, and I agree 100%. It's unfortunate to see that class size likely won't be cut. But up until this morning, I was under the impression that only ~33% got big law? Does this mean that employers are dipping to median, or is it another case of inflated employment data?

Not everyone with an SA gets a full time offer.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:57 pm

holmesboy wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:1. No amount of experiential learning will change the fact that there aren't enough jobs.

2. 34%-->52% in SAs is good, although even at 52% I can't justify sticker debt.

3. Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same if that means class size will be cut. Unfortunately he didn't say class size will be cut which probably means if you've got a 2.1/169 you're in.



All good points, and I agree 100%. It's unfortunate to see that class size likely won't be cut. But up until this morning, I was under the impression that only ~33% got big law? Does this mean that employers are dipping to median, or is it another case of inflated employment data?

The 33% figure was for c/o 2011. So the 52% should be reflected when we get c/o 2013 numbers next spring.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:58 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
holmesboy wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:1. No amount of experiential learning will change the fact that there aren't enough jobs.

2. 34%-->52% in SAs is good, although even at 52% I can't justify sticker debt.

3. Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same if that means class size will be cut. Unfortunately he didn't say class size will be cut which probably means if you've got a 2.1/169 you're in.



All good points, and I agree 100%. It's unfortunate to see that class size likely won't be cut. But up until this morning, I was under the impression that only ~33% got big law? Does this mean that employers are dipping to median, or is it another case of inflated employment data?

Not everyone with an SA gets a full time offer.

Right. Plus SA does not equal BigLaw SA, so some of these people could be working at smaller firms where expectation of a full time offer doesn't even exist. And some small percentage of people who do get full time offers will instead go to work for the government or a federal judge.

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holmesboy
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby holmesboy » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:03 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
holmesboy wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:1. No amount of experiential learning will change the fact that there aren't enough jobs.

2. 34%-->52% in SAs is good, although even at 52% I can't justify sticker debt.

3. Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same if that means class size will be cut. Unfortunately he didn't say class size will be cut which probably means if you've got a 2.1/169 you're in.



All good points, and I agree 100%. It's unfortunate to see that class size likely won't be cut. But up until this morning, I was under the impression that only ~33% got big law? Does this mean that employers are dipping to median, or is it another case of inflated employment data?

Not everyone with an SA gets a full time offer.

Right. Plus SA does not equal BigLaw SA, so some of these people could be working at smaller firms where expectation of a full time offer doesn't even exist. And some small percentage of people who do get full time offers will instead go to work for the government or a federal judge.



Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up.

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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Big Dog » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:04 pm

Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same...


Except that he didn't say that, did he?

He clearly said that they would stay "roughly" the same. That could mean a drop or 1+ LSAT points....whatever his definition of "roughly" is.....

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:05 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same...


Except that he didn't say that, did he?

He clearly said that they would stay "roughly" the same. That could mean a drop or 1+ LSAT points....whatever his definition of "roughly" is.....


Every non TTT school's medians will stay "roughly the same"

Also, LSAC must be pissed/going broke

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justonemoregame
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby justonemoregame » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:06 pm

How does the expansion of clinics and externship programs help lower the cost of tuition? And what's the point of saying you've increased scholarships (by some vague amount) if you're still fleecing a significant swath of your class by north of 50K every year?

Cut faculty salary and pass the savings directly to the students. Profs will teach for less. (or some other abundantly qualified YHS grad will).

G-Town to 168

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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby ajax » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:07 pm

ManOfTheMinute wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same...


Except that he didn't say that, did he?

He clearly said that they would stay "roughly" the same. That could mean a drop or 1+ LSAT points....whatever his definition of "roughly" is.....


Every non TTT school's medians will stay "roughly the same"

Also, LSAC must be pissed/going broke



There is also the option of just Illinoising or Villanoving your numbers, which can keep them the same. Hell you can Illinois/Villanova your medians up if you want.

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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby ajax » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:07 pm

justonemoregame wrote:How does the expansion of clinics and externship programs help lower the cost of tuition? And what's the point of saying you've increased scholarships (by some vague amount) if you're still fleecing a significant swath of your class by north of 50K every year?

Cut faculty salary and pass the savings directly to the students. Profs will teach for less. (or some other abundantly qualified YHS grad will).

G-Town to 168


Exactly. Show me an actual cut in tuition, or stop it with the bullshit.

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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby ajax » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:08 pm

justonemoregame wrote:How does the expansion of clinics and externship programs help lower the cost of tuition? And what's the point of saying you've increased scholarships (by some vague amount) if you're still fleecing a significant swath of your class by north of 50K every year?

Cut faculty salary and pass the savings directly to the students. Profs will teach for less. (or some other abundantly qualified YHS grad will).

G-Town to 168


"G-Town to 168" - Not if they lie about their stats, like I would expect many to do given the wrist-slap Illinois and Villanova received.

Miracle
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Miracle » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:14 pm

Its about time. I don't think that closing ten schools is enough-personally. It should be more like 30-40-even 50

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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby cricketlove00 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:15 pm


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justonemoregame
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby justonemoregame » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:15 pm

I approve making Illinoising a legit verb.

I was Illinoising with my car's engine the other day and am now back on the road.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:18 pm

Big Dog wrote:
Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same...


Except that he didn't say that, did he?

He clearly said that they would stay "roughly" the same. That could mean a drop or 1+ LSAT points....whatever his definition of "roughly" is.....

Good point. Any change to the LSAT median is huge, although saying "roughly" makes it even more likely that GULC is determined to maintain its enormous class size.

ajax
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby ajax » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:19 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same...


Except that he didn't say that, did he?

He clearly said that they would stay "roughly" the same. That could mean a drop or 1+ LSAT points....whatever his definition of "roughly" is.....

Good point. Any change to the LSAT median is huge, although saying "roughly" makes it even more likely that GULC is determined to maintain its enormous class size.



Maintaining enormous class size as well as tuition is exactly what is needed for the students in this environment!

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North
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby North » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:22 pm

Dropping in late to lol at BlaqBella and the way she always defends her frequent and often very poorly informed opinions.

"It's not even a debate! It's a FACT! Bye!"

Lulz.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby justonemoregame » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:26 pm

I want to see faculty salary cuts, and I think if schools were smart they would go that route and publicize it as a direct response not only to falling enrollment, but runaway tuition. I think people care how schools respond to this, and so far it's been SPS. It's weird that tuition has now reached some meta status in the universe where the laws of physics prevent its reduction. But I guess that's just the way it has to be, so schools have to find some way to Illinois the system they created and increase "scholarships." They can't just take it off the front end, they have to go in through the Villanova, in other words.

I was really disappointed in reading about the case of Vermont Law. Shit hits the fan, so who do we screw? Staff. The lowest-paid folks on the roster. Does it not make since to trim the fat where it is largest, and keep the people who do necessary things like cut the grass and answer the phones for $12/hour?

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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Miracle » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:29 pm

cricketlove00 wrote:And before that there was this http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/opini ... money.html


Well, SOME law schools are worth the money. I don't disagree with that. I think most people disagree about the current process. Where med schools protect their students, law schools are throwing their students to the sharks. Why do we need schools whom accept students with the LSAT under 160. Seriously? Granted 160 is not good either, but lets say 160 for the sake of the argument. No reason for it.

It seems as if we have no standards. We let in anyone in the club who is willing to pay.

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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby hume85 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:39 pm

justonemoregame wrote:I want to see faculty salary cuts, and I think if schools were smart they would go that route and publicize it as a direct response not only to falling enrollment, but runaway tuition. I think people care how schools respond to this, and so far it's been SPS. It's weird that tuition has now reached some meta status in the universe where the laws of physics prevent its reduction. But I guess that's just the way it has to be, so schools have to find some way to Illinois the system they created and increase "scholarships." They can't just take it off the front end, they have to go in through the Villanova, in other words.

I was really disappointed in reading about the case of Vermont Law. Shit hits the fan, so who do we screw? Staff. The lowest-paid folks on the roster. Does it not make since to trim the fat where it is largest, and keep the people who do necessary things like cut the grass and answer the phones for $12/hour?


I believe Vermont said that faculty layoffs were coming.

Miracle
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Miracle » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:42 pm

hume85 wrote:
justonemoregame wrote:I want to see faculty salary cuts, and I think if schools were smart they would go that route and publicize it as a direct response not only to falling enrollment, but runaway tuition. I think people care how schools respond to this, and so far it's been SPS. It's weird that tuition has now reached some meta status in the universe where the laws of physics prevent its reduction. But I guess that's just the way it has to be, so schools have to find some way to Illinois the system they created and increase "scholarships." They can't just take it off the front end, they have to go in through the Villanova, in other words.

I was really disappointed in reading about the case of Vermont Law. Shit hits the fan, so who do we screw? Staff. The lowest-paid folks on the roster. Does it not make since to trim the fat where it is largest, and keep the people who do necessary things like cut the grass and answer the phones for $12/hour?


I believe Vermont said that faculty layoffs were coming.


How does that help the problem?

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BlaqBella
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:54 pm

North wrote:Dropping in late to lol at BlaqBella and the way she always defends her frequent and often very poorly informed opinions.

"It's not even a debate! It's a FACT! Bye!"

Lulz.


For most BIGLAW firms, they pay attention to rankings. FOR THE MOST PART, Rankings is a reflection of reputation and reputation a reflection of rankings. That is a FACT


0Ls can 0L. Lulz all you want that doesn't change the fact that my above statement holds true. Firms are prestige whores and will continue to be such in this generation.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby prezidentv8 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:58 pm

ajax wrote:Show me an actual cut in tuition, or stop it with the bullshit.

Kurst
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby Kurst » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:02 pm

ajax wrote:"G-Town to 168" - Not if they lie about their stats, like I would expect many to do given the wrist-slap Illinois and Villanova received.
ajax wrote:There is also the option of just Illinoising or Villanoving your numbers, which can keep them the same. Hell you can Illinois/Villanova your medians up if you want.

For the 2012-2013 cycle, the ABA and LSAC are working together to verify GPA/LSAT medians.

987654321
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby 987654321 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:10 pm

holmesboy wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:1. No amount of experiential learning will change the fact that there aren't enough jobs.

2. 34%-->52% in SAs is good, although even at 52% I can't justify sticker debt.

3. Great to hear that the GULC medians will be staying the same if that means class size will be cut. Unfortunately he didn't say class size will be cut which probably means if you've got a 2.1/169 you're in.



All good points, and I agree 100%. It's unfortunate to see that class size likely won't be cut. But up until this morning, I was under the impression that only ~33% got big law? Does this mean that employers are dipping to median, or is it another case of inflated employment data?


I wonder how GULC defines summer associates. Is it limited to big law? Are they including mid size firms? small firms? @ Sticker - Georgetown is turning out to be such a TTT.

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North
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Re: Front page NY times: massive app drop; schools in trouble;

Postby North » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:14 pm

BlaqBella wrote:0Ls can 0L. Lulz all you want that doesn't change the fact that my above statement holds true. Firms are prestige whores and will continue to be such in this generation.

See Dingbat:
dingbat wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:Who cares if one is more deserving than the other to be ranked in a T1! Fact of the matter is legal employers hire on the basis of ranking. Corporate elitism FTW. If you do not have what it takes to be in a T1 despite, perhaps, "being deserving of" such, you need to be shut down.

No, they don't. Employers don't give a shit about ranking. They hire based on reputation, location, past experience and alumni networks, which is why university of South Dakota (unranked) is more deserving of remaining open than, say, American (ranked 48)

Last time, the best you could manage was:
BlaqBella wrote: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not worth entertaining this banter any further.


BlaqBella wrote: For most BIGLAW firms, they pay attention to rankings. FOR THE MOST PART, Rankings is a reflection of reputation and reputation a reflection of rankings. That is a FACT

Nope. Reputation among legal employers constitutes only 15% of a school's USNWR ranking.




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